So is it now official that Kansas City won the Greinke trade? Also rethinking Ned Yost

[3and2Fastball]

Kansas City made it to the World Series, the Brewers didn't

 

The point of trading all those good players for Greinke was to make it to the World Series, right? Or was it just to "be a contender and make the playoffs?"

 

Is it also safe to say that Ned Yost is a better manager than anyone the Brewers hired since Yost was fired?

 

Finally, is that main point that Dayton Moore is a better GM that Doug Melvin? Or is it simply that the KC owner meddles less than Mark A?

 

Or none of the above? (It is all just a series of unrelated coincidences)

[Thurston Fluff]

I have always been an unapologetic Ned Yost supporter and still am to this day. Then again I was never a person who felt in game management amounted to a hill of beans when judging a manager's worth.

It's also part of why I am not in favor of jumping on the "it's the manager's fault we lost" bandwagon every time a team disappoints. We've hired three distinctly different managers over Melvin's time here and the results remained pretty much the same. To some that means Melvin just isn't very good at finding the right one. I tend to think the results are the same because it was never the manager's fault to begin with. I think the fact that all three managers have managed teams to the playoffs, and one to the World Series, backs up my belief.

[reillymcshane]

Is it also safe to say that Ned Yost is a better manager than anyone the Brewers hired since Yost was fired?

 

(It is all just a series of unrelated coincidences)

No, Ned Yost is not necessarily a better manager than Macha or RRR. His issues are well documented. But kudos to him for realizing that managing in the playoffs is different than the regular season (lots of managers never seem to understand that fact). He seems to have taken criticism of some of his decisions and learned from it. Good for him (perhaps that makes him a better manager than other guys). But it should be pointed out that the decisions he is making are really EASY ones. You have three shutdown relievers - use them. That's pretty obvious. A few weeks ago he brought in Aaron Crow in the 6th inning during a critical late season game because 'Aaron Crow is my 6th inning guy' despite it was a bad matchup, Crow isn't that good, and he had three of the best relievers in baseball in the bullpen. Royals lose.

 

I happen to agree a lot with Thurston Fluff. The manager doesn't make that much of a difference (he makes a difference - just not that big of a difference). The manager fills out the lineup card, makes substitutions, he manages the clubhouse, the egos - but he can't hit or pitch. It's not like Yost has helped Moustakas hit four HRs in eight games. Or done something to get Hosmer to hit .450. Players ultimately have to do the right things to make a manager look good.

[3and2Fastball]

I'm not saying it is Roenicke or Macha's fault that we haven't gone to a World Series, but I do suspect that Yost is a better manager than those 2

[BrewersSuperCollector]

Ken Macha never had a chance with the pitching staffs he was given.

[Outlander]

I don't know that Kansas City won the trade it was just that they made the Greinke trade to get prospects and then got Shields to win it all. If the Brewers traded a good player when they were bad and received good prospects in return that reached their potential in 2011 it might have led to a World Series. It was a two step process for KC.

[BrewBalls]

The Brewers also had a bit of bad luck after the 2008 season when the Yankees signed both CC and Teixeira. If any other team would have signed Teixeira we would have received the Yankees 1st round pick #25 which turned into Mike Trout. Instead we got bumped to #39 and took Kentrail Davis. Granted there is no guarantee the Brewers select Trout at #25 but the possibility was still there.

[JohnBriggs12]

KC's success has little to do with the trades made with the Brewers. They had Cain and Escobar for 3 seasons prior to this one with little success. They are where they are for one reason. Their bullpen, especially their top 3 guys have been historically outstanding. What makes a 162 game season such a grind is having to bounce back from games that are snatched from you late. There was no such stress on the Royals as they had the 7th through 9th locked down the entire season. Credit them for turning a failed starter like Wade Davis who had a negative WAR last year into a reliever where's he's been nothing short of sensational but for the most part it was the relievers that made Yost's job simple. He didn't turn into a brilliant manager overnight.

 

What the Royals have shown is this. A superior bullpen can lead a team to a championship. That defies the prevailing thought that bullpens only matter if you otherwise have a very good team. It might be true that a closer by himself doesn't take a team from mediocre to championship quality, but having 3 outstanding guys locking down the late innings, sure does increase a teams chances. The Royals lineup isn't bad but it's not great. A big reason the Brewers got off to their fast start was the combo of K-Rod, Smith and Thornburg was outstanding the first month. Had they been able to keep that pace up the entire year, the Brewers still might be playing despite some down years by some hitters. The Royals rotation was solid and stayed healthy. Their bullpen which includes no ex Brewers are the difference makers.

[Invader3K]

We were two wins away from the World Series in 2011. We would have been in if just a small handful of things broke our way. People need to have a bit of perspective.

 

I do agree with BrewersSuperCollector that Macha never had a chance. He was here for two years with basically the worst starting rotation in the NL. I didn't like him much as a manager, but it's hard to blame him for the poor records those teams had in '09-'10.

[LouisEly]

We were two wins away from the World Series in 2011. We would have been in if just a small handful of things broke our way. People need to have a bit of perspective.

 

What the Royals have shown is this. A superior bullpen can lead a team to a championship.

 

These. The Brewers had home field advantage in the 2011 NLCS. That says that Melvin did his job that year - they won the NL Central over 162 games.

 

The Cardinals showed that you need a great bullpen in the playoffs to win and not necessarily a good rotation. None of their starters in the 2011 NLCS lasted beyond the 5th inning. No one can say that the Cardinals had great starting pitching in that series. But they won because they shut down the Brewers with their bullpen, and their manager knew when to use his bullpen and who to use.

 

Like someone else said, when K-Rod, Smith, and Thornburg were lights-out the Brewers did well and they won games late. When they struggled and Thornburg got hurt the Brewers struggled. Because of the long season, baseball is as much psychological as it is physical, and the psychological toll of losing games late because of the bullpen (and riding the emotional high of winning games late) has a big impact on a team over the course of 162 games.

[3and2Fastball]

We were two wins away from the World Series in 2011. We would have been in if just a small handful of things broke our way. People need to have a bit of perspective.

.

 

A few things breaking our way? Like Roenicke not starting Kotsay in CF? Or Melvin trading for Furcal instead of St Louis getting him and the Brewers being stuck with Yuni B? That kinda thing?

 

My thesis is that as compared to their peers the Brewers organization, especially GM & Manager, seem below average

[lcbj68c]

Trades get won and lost...who cares? Are we supposed to act like scorned girlfriends 6 years later and lament over what our ex ended up with? Come on Man!

[jerichoholicninja]

According some posters success is only when you win the World Series so we'll have to wait a week or so to see who "won" the trade. Ned may have gotten a little better but he stills does the same head scratching things he did in Milwaukee. He almost single-highhandedly cost them the Wild Card game with his stupidity.

[endaround]

For four consecutive years the Brewers have had 3 players who are legitimate MVP type players in Braun, Gomez and Lucroy. To say that the front office doesn't know anything is hilarious.

[SRB]

Would you rather have Gomez/Segura or Cain/Escobar, because the former pair likely wouldn't have emerged if the latter had remained. I don't think that choice is even close.

[SRB]

My thesis is that as compared to their peers the Brewers organization, especially GM & Manager, seem below average

 

I don't necessarily disagree, but Dayton Moore is arguably the worst GM in the business. KC didn't pull the wool over anybody eye's with the Greinke trade. They had many years of top draft picks that gave them a supposedly legendary farm system, which has barely panned out and their payoff is getting hot at the right moment and waltzing into the WS with a team that really isn't super impressive. The 2011 Brewers were better than the 2014 Royals.

[HiAndTight]

Kansas City made it to the World Series, the Brewers didn't

 

The point of trading all those good players for Greinke was to make it to the World Series, right? Or was it just to "be a contender and make the playoffs?"

 

 

 

1-No. This is an absolute, resounding NO. First of all, the criteria is making it to the World Series? You're going to label the Brewers 2011 season a failure and the Royals a success because one team made it to the world series while the other lost to the WS Champs in the NLCS? No, the goal is to WIN the World Series. The Royals have not done that yet. However their season is without a doubt a resounding success. Just as the Milwaukee Brewers are NOT in a position to label the 2011 season a "failure," because they didn't win the World Series, the Royals making a WS means their season is a success.

 

The point of trading all those good players for Greinke was to make it to the World Series, right?

No. We're the Milwaukee Brewers, a team with limited resources. The point is to put a competitive team on the field, get into the playoffs and hope that you are or you get hot, you get a little luck and win. It may be a failure for the Dodgers who will pay around 300 million dollars to field their roster or the Yankees deep pockets.

 

All I can ask of the Brewers is that they try to put the best team on the field and are aggressive when the situation calls for it. They did just that in 2011.

 

Is it also safe to say that Ned Yost is a better manager than anyone the Brewers hired since Yost was fired?

 

No. Not at all. Fans almost universally dislike their manager. Very seldom does a fan base overwhelmingly support it's manager. I'd guess the Baltimore fans are an exception, but that's a guess. Managers make a very small impact. One new metic I've seen referenced suggests that the difference between the very best manager in the sport and the very worst is 2 wins. Personally, I'd go with Roenicke, then Yost and then Macha. But really, I don't think it makes much of a difference. I think a pitching coach is more important.

 

Finally, is that main point that Dayton Moore is a better GM that Doug Melvin? Or is it simply that the KC owner meddles less than Mark A?

 

And why exactly does it have to be either or? You're basically saying, either Moore is better than Melvin, OR Melvin is better but Mark Attanasio prevents him from doing his job as well as he could.

 

I think that's just ridiculous. The Brewers spend just short of 115 million dollars this year in player costs. So Attanasio is not the problem.

 

 

 

How about this. Dayton Moore made some very good moves, he had some very good luck with some players, and the Royals got hot and are riding a great wave right now. The Royals success this year doesn't impact the Brewers success in 2011, and I get the comparisions because of the trade, but the suggestion that BECAUSE the Royals beat Baltimore, then all the sudden these certain things have become fact is ridiculous.

 

What if they'd lost that game vs Oakland when they were down 7-3? Is Dayton Moore still better than Melvin and or our "meddlesome," owner? Is Yost still the best manager we've had? Did they still win the trade?

 

 

The trade worked out beautifully for both sides. If Segura bounces back and we get something out of Pena or Hellweg, even better.

[BrewersSuperCollector]

We were two wins away from the World Series in 2011. We would have been in if just a small handful of things broke our way. People need to have a bit of perspective.

.

 

A few things breaking our way? Like Roenicke not starting Kotsay in CF? Or Melvin trading for Furcal instead of St Louis getting him and the Brewers being stuck with Yuni B? That kinda thing?

 

My thesis is that as compared to their peers the Brewers organization, especially GM & Manager, seem below average

 

Are you sure Melvin didn't try to trade for Furcal. Do you know more than the rest of us do. Furcal had a full no trade clause in this contract.

http://www.sbnation.com/2011/7/30/2306478/rafael-furcal-trade-dodgers-cardinals

 

Not everyone wants to play in Milwaukee. Not everyone is available to the real world GM. Only in the virtual world.

[lcbj68c]

I'm shocked that I haven't read one post that is something along the lines of "if the Brewers would have kept Cain, Escobar, and resigned Aoki, then it would be them in the 2014 World Series". Honestly, that's what the crux of these types of topics seem to me to be. I'm rooting for the Royals, but what's the point of analyzing a trade 3 years down the road? It was assumed that Greinke would be a short return and that the Royals would have a long return if they sat on their investment. The Brewers reaped immediate dividends and the Royals are now able to do the same. It doesn't have to mean, nor should it mean that anybody "won" or "lost" a trade. It also should have very little impact on that job performance of a manager or general manager.

 

Hi&Tight said it best "We're the Milwaukee Brewers... The point is to put a competitive team on the field, get into the playoffs and hope that you are or you get hot, you get a little luck and win....All I can ask of the Brewers is that they try to put the best team on the field and are aggressive when the situation calls for it. They did just that in 2011."

 

If that involves a "meddling" owner who wants to closer control his assets and his business, then so be it. If that involves the general manager giving up assets that might produce in 3 years for immediate assets, then so be it. Playing armchair GM is fun, but it's not even close to reality of what is possible in the real business. Andrew Freidman is considered a God around here and I think very highly of him, but his "talent" took the Rays to mid 70's in wins? Brian Cashman, with any resource at his disposal, won two more games than the Brewers. I applaud DM and MA for making this team competitive just about every September since 2007. If they keep their noses to the grindstone, eventually it'll all come together in a perfect storm and this city will get their pennant.

[DHonks]

Ken Macha was mentioned, so I need to jump in. Yes, Ned is our best recent manager...perhaps the best since Scrap Iron. Macha might not be worst, but that's because Lopes/Royster were in there. Yost had many fine qualities, but like every other fanbase in baseball, they thought their manager was awful. The only manager I truly hated was Macha...I saw no redeeming qualities. I loved Yost's rotation handling, fire, and no-nonsense approach.

[nate82]

Ken Macha was mentioned, so I need to jump in. Yes, Ned is our best recent manager...perhaps the best since Scrap Iron. Macha might not be worst, but that's because Lopes/Royster were in there. Yost had many fine qualities, but like every other fanbase in baseball, they thought their manager was awful. The only manager I truly hated was Macha...I saw no redeeming qualities. I loved Yost's rotation handling, fire, and no-nonsense approach.

 

Except Yost was and still is one of the worst bullpen managers in the game. This is where Yost faltered and even faltered this year. Though if you can give a manager a lights out bullpen the mistakes they make with it will be limited and will be negligible through a full season. I would put Yost behind Macha. If Macha wouldn't have alienated the team with his personality he would have been a better manager. Macha was much better with the bullpen than Yost was but granted Yost never really had a great bullpen when he was in Milwaukee.

[RockCoCougars]

I am actually far more inclined to second guess the Aoki/Smith deal than the Greinke trade. Even as a fourth outfielder, Aoki would have been very valuable... the difference between 200 at bats of Aoki vs. 200 at bats of Schafer/Herrera is huge. This is not even mentioning the fact that he was really the only semblance of a true leadoff hitter the Brewers had on their roster at the time of the deal.

[Thurston Fluff]

Except Yost was and still is one of the worst bullpen managers in the game.

 

I think that is entirely based on what you think bull pen management should be. Why do you think he can ride those good relievers now? Maybe because he didn't wear them out a month ago? You may feel his bullpen use is terrible because he sometimes doesn't use his best guys when you feel he should but he has them now to use when he needs them. That is directly related to how he used them in the past.

[AdvantageSchneider]

KC won the trade.

Yost is a great manager.

The Brewers should follow the KC model and stink for 28 years and then they will no doubt make the WS in the 29th year.

[TooLiveBrew]

I am actually far more inclined to second guess the Aoki/Smith deal than the Greinke trade. Even as a fourth outfielder, Aoki would have been very valuable... the difference between 200 at bats of Aoki vs. 200 at bats of Schafer/Herrera is huge. This is not even mentioning the fact that he was really the only semblance of a true leadoff hitter the Brewers had on their roster at the time of the deal.

One more season of 200-300 PAs isn't close to having Smith for 6 seasons. Even if Aoki had posted a better OPS than his .710, this was a smart trade.