How do we turn this sad franchise around?

[logan82]

When Attanasio took over the team, the Brewers went 13 years without being above .500 and had a 23 year playoff drought. Rewind to 2006 and ask if fans would be happy if the Brewers had 2 postseason appearances with an NLDS and 5 winning seasons in the next 10 years and I'm sure many would be ecstatic. Then ask Cubs fans in 2006 how happy they'd be in 10 years if the team had accumulated 0 postseason wins and 3 or 4 90+ loss seasons... Or the Twins, 0 postseason wins and 4 consecutive 90 loss seasons. Funny how perspectives change. Cubs fans are happy and optimistic while Brewer fans are depressed and writing off the future to the Cubs already.

 

Not saying anyone should envy the Brewers, but we shouldn't forget how awful going 20 years without competitive baseball was.

If you told me we would be here 10 years ago with all the promising talent we had I would be very disappointed to put it mildly.

[coolcool]

When Attanasio took over the team, the Brewers went 13 years without being above .500 and had a 23 year playoff drought. Rewind to 2006 and ask if fans would be happy if the Brewers had 2 postseason appearances with an NLDS and 5 winning seasons in the next 10 years and I'm sure many would be ecstatic. Then ask Cubs fans in 2006 how happy they'd be in 10 years if the team had accumulated 0 postseason wins and 3 or 4 90+ loss seasons... Or the Twins, 0 postseason wins and 4 consecutive 90 loss seasons. Funny how perspectives change. Cubs fans are happy and optimistic while Brewer fans are depressed and writing off the future to the Cubs already.

 

Not saying anyone should envy the Brewers, but we shouldn't forget how awful going 20 years without competitive baseball was.

If you told me we would be here 10 years ago with all the promising talent we had I would be very disappointed to put it mildly.

 

Expecting more than an NLCS appearance following the 2005 season after going 20 years without a playoff appearance just seems baffling to me. I guess it just makes my point that nobody is going to be happy ever.

[adambr2]

Since August 22nd, we have played 30 games.

 

We have been shutout twice. We have been held to one run 7 times. We have been held to 2 runs 8 times.

 

We have scored more than 4 runs three times (once in a loss.)

[adambr2]

When Attanasio took over the team, the Brewers went 13 years without being above .500 and had a 23 year playoff drought. Rewind to 2006 and ask if fans would be happy if the Brewers had 2 postseason appearances with an NLDS and 5 winning seasons in the next 10 years and I'm sure many would be ecstatic. Then ask Cubs fans in 2006 how happy they'd be in 10 years if the team had accumulated 0 postseason wins and 3 or 4 90+ loss seasons... Or the Twins, 0 postseason wins and 4 consecutive 90 loss seasons. Funny how perspectives change. Cubs fans are happy and optimistic while Brewer fans are depressed and writing off the future to the Cubs already.

 

Not saying anyone should envy the Brewers, but we shouldn't forget how awful going 20 years without competitive baseball was.

If you told me we would be here 10 years ago with all the promising talent we had I would be very disappointed to put it mildly.

 

Expecting more than an NLCS appearance following the 2005 season after going 20 years without a playoff appearance just seems baffling to me. I guess it just makes my point that nobody is going to be happy ever.

 

This is like saying that the Packers shouldn't have expected more than 1 NFC Championship Game appearance in the 90's after going through 20 years of losing football prior to that.

 

The goal is to win a championship, not to appear in and lose a NLCS or ALCS once every few decades.

 

I can identify with this. If you go back to 2007, when Braun was ROTY, Prince was coming into his own, Hardy looked like an MVP candidate, and Hall, Weeks, Hart, etc. looked like rising stars. The rotation featured Sheets in his prime at a time when Gallardo was starting to break into the league.

 

The future looked extremely bright and it looked like everything was coming to fruition. I remember Bill and Brian sometime in 2007 or 2008 making the argument that the Brewers had overall the most talented 25 man roster in baseball. I think if you would have asked most fans at that time if they would be disappointed to learn that in 10 years they would be a franchise on the decline and would have made the playoffs twice and made an NLCS once without a World Series appearance, most would have been very disappointed.

[dlk9s]

Bottom line is that there's a difference between having a sad history and currently being a sad franchise.

[adambr2]

Bottom line is that there's a difference between having a sad history and currently being a sad franchise.

 

Agreed. I don't think we're necessarily a sad franchise, but we're essentially in baseball purgatory. We put a good enough team out there to sell some tickets and sometimes make things interesting for awhile. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Every year, we find more cracks in the wall. Instead of tearing down the wall and building up a new one, we go out, buy some spackle, and plug the holes with it, only to find more holes the next year.

 

At the end of the day I'm not sure that's a better position than a sad franchise that may not have any hope for the present but can tear down the wall and at least start somewhere.

[brewcrewdue80]

The result of all these trades could be several top 100 type minor league prospects. I bet Gallardo and Lohse could get a top 100 type guy each (maybe not top 50, but top 100). Gomez could land a top 20 type player and more.

 

Gomez should net at least 1 top 100 prospect(top 40 minimum) and if not a second top 100 prospect one that is within reach of being a top 100 soon.

 

Gallardo yes can sell high on him, but really don't believe he'll net a top 100 prospect on a 1year 13mil deal. Gallardo has seen his K/9 decrease some more this season, and it's only the fact his walks have decreased that he hasn't been absolutely torched. His Fip is a tick higher than last year's when GMs called him a #4 SP not worthwhile to add to a Playoff run rotation. He's an expensive Low #3 with likely #4 stats coming. Let's remember how "Great" our Catchers are Framing and consider that moving him to another team likely put Gallardo's ERA at his 3.91Fip with a 4.2Fip or worse then.

 

Lohse. His Fip has been above 4 each of the last 2 seasons. You're not giving up a top 100 prospect for that. 11mil and aging?

 

The kind of Prospect I'd figure we'd get for Lohse and Gallardo would be 3rd rd picks or poor 2nd rd picks who can maybe play 1b/3b in the Majors next season. Just a tick above Poorly. Something like Caleb Cowart from Anaheim who posted a .223BA .619OPS in AAA.

 

Only real Players on Milw who have trade value are Gomez, Lucroy, Peralta, Nelson, and to some extent Davis. Can probably add Smith/Thornburg to having some trade value but definitely selling low on those two now.

 

I'm thinking the team dumps Gallardo getting nothing for him if ARam agrees to come back next year. No ARam? then Gallardo's option is picked up. I don't see both being back on the team next season. 29mil for 2players on what would be a 75-81 win team seems really poor money managing to me.

 

It's time to cut ties with both honestly, trade Gomez, and Trade Lohse, really reducing payroll. Bandaid would be Emilio Bonifacio for 3b. Parra/Schafer in CF Maybe even sign Chris Young to be a Platoon situation in CF. Figure combined those two would cost about 11mil in FA vs. the 26mil for Gomez/ARam. Man you're really looking at a vastly reduced Payroll. Which then acquiring Broxton really makes it all stupifying. As his 9mil contract would be pointless to have on a losing team. Guess he becomes a 2015 Trade Deadline Closer.

 

Smart baseball fans would get the moves. But the general public would stop going to games with the losing team being put out there. Would really depend on who Gomez brought back in trade. You don't go the High upside route but rather the ML ready high Floor route and acquire say a Matthew Skole from Wash for 1b with Michael Taylor a CF replacement for Gomez. You then have 1b/RH CF covered for awhile. You keep ARam and 1 of Lohse Gallardo and see if that works. With Broxton/ARam/the Pitcher kept among Lohse/Gallardo as trade deadline players if you aren't in contention at that point.

Considering Washington can lose Span not picking up his 9mil option to FA, Gomez becomes a perfect cheap 2year CF for them. Adding that Ryan Zimmerman moves to 1b long term blocking Skole. I think Skole and Taylor would be a very good deal for Milw for Gomez.

[The stache]

I don't think it's a sad franchise.

 

It brings a lot of joy and hope to a lot of people.

 

They provide awesome community outreach, and serve as a catalyst for a great charitable effort.

 

Still, the lack of postseason success is disappointing.

 

And this year's collapse was especially hard to take.

 

But there are pieces there to make next year's team competitive. The Brewers have one of the better owners in the game. And I was really excited by the amateur draft for the long term future.

 

I'm not often optimistic, but I am positive about the Brewers going forward.

 

Jim, that's a great post.

 

I need to amend my post. This team is only sad from a competitive standpoint. Have they provided me, and all Brewer fans, with some incredibly entertaining baseball over these four decades? Absolutely. Have some absolutely incredible players come through Milwaukee? Yes.

 

You can't make the Major League Baseball Hall of Fame without Aaron and Yount. The first and last name on the list has Milwaukee written all over their jerseys. Mathews. Molitor, Aaron, Yount, Schoendienst, Fingers, Sutton.

 

And I know the Brewers team and players have done a lot of good in the community. Everything else, they're good at, except winning championships. I hope that will change, because I think the fans of the Brewers have been incredible. And such loyalty should be rewarded.

[LouisEly]

The goal is to win a championship, not to appear in and lose a NLCS or ALCS once every few decades.

 

I can identify with this. If you go back to 2007, when Braun was ROTY, Prince was coming into his own, Hardy looked like an MVP candidate, and Hall, Weeks, Hart, etc. looked like rising stars. The rotation featured Sheets in his prime at a time when Gallardo was starting to break into the league.

 

1) Until baseball has revenue sharing and salary caps on par with football, I cannot expect the first part of this. A $100M payroll is nice, but ultimately they can't compete with teams with $240M payrolls. A $100M payroll has little to no margin for error and creates unrealistic expectations that it must be run perfectly. No baseball executive team can run a team perfectly, but a bigger payroll allows you to make more mistakes and still compete.

 

B) The problem is that in the second part of this there are only two pitchers on that list, and both got hurt in 2008 - one temporarily, one permanently. Unfortunately the Brewers had high draft picks before the now conventional wisdom of gradually increasing pitchers innings each year in the minors. The Brewers had talented young pitching in Jones, Rogers, Gold, and Neugebauer, but those guys put such a strain on their arms their second pro season when they were only 19 that they ultimately broke down.

 

What should they do?

 

1) Assess whether Braun's thumb can be fixed. If yes, then focus on upgrading 1B and/or SS, put Nelson in the bullpen for a year, ride out Lohse/Gallardo/Ramirez for one last hurrah, then tear down in 2016. See if they can flip one of Lohse/Gallardo for a big upgrade at 1B. Try to put Weeks' salary towards Asdrubel Cabrera, a switch-hitter who can spell Segura against tough RHP and Gennett against tough LHP.

 

2) If Braun's thumb can't be fixed, then they are somewhat handcuffed and should explore what they can get for Lohse, Gallardo, Ramirez, and Gomez. If the return is adequate for 3 of the 4, or exceptional for 2 of the 4, then tear down now. But if the return is adequate for only 1 of them, then take their chances in 2015. No sense in doing a half-arsed tear-down and giving away players for nothing.

 

3) Throw a boatload of cash at an external replacement for Seid, preferably someone to promote from STL who will bring some of their guys with them so they can weaken their rival at the same time. This should probably be #1.

[jjgott]

The first and last name on the list has Milwaukee written all over their jerseys. Mathews. Molitor, Aaron, Yount, Schoendienst, Fingers, Sutton.

 

[sarcasm]Quevedo[/sarcasm]

[monty57]

Until baseball has revenue sharing and salary caps on par with football, I cannot expect the first part of this. A $100M payroll is nice, but ultimately they can't compete with teams with $240M payrolls. A $100M payroll has little to no margin for error and creates unrealistic expectations that it must be run perfectly. No baseball executive team can run a team perfectly, but a bigger payroll allows you to make more mistakes and still compete.

 

This is why I think we need to run things differently. We can't compete through free agency. We need a constant supply of good, young talent playing for league minimum. When we delve into free agency, the guys we can get have some "warts," whether that be age, inconsistency, or just plain "why the heck did we get that guy?" Unfortunately, these guys still cost $10-15MM/year, which may not seem like a lot in today's baseball world, but they each account for around 10-20% of our annual payroll. That means that for each eight figure salary on the roster, we need multiple guys playing for around league minimum.

 

The only way smaller market teams can hope to achieve sustainable success is to find a way to continually have a good portion of their roster made up of guys making league minimum (pre-arby) that are good MLB players. That's not easy, but it requires continually adding talent to the farm, most notably through the draft, international market, and trades. Some prospects will fail, which is why we need to have numbers to put the odds on our side.

 

At one point, a decade or so ago, we had a perfect storm brewing. We had stripped down the MLB payroll and started putting a focus on the minors. That led to multiple high draft picks, and we hit on all of them, leading to a wave of prospects that would all be All Star caliber players. They hit the big leagues around the same time, so much of our roster was filled with pre-arby All Stars, and we had a lot of room to add salary because the previous regime had brought payroll to very low levels. We could have decided to continue on this strategy, and continually add more talent to the minors, or we could do everything possible to win while these All Star prospects were under team control before they left for free agency. We chose the latter. That is why we had some success over the recent past and also why things look like we might have to start over or remain lost in baseball purgatory.

 

No one knows how things would have turned out if we had chosen "the road less traveled," but I wish we would have tried that path because it was pretty easy to see a dark future when we continually traded away "tomorrow" for "today."

[coolcool]

We had talent coming up 10 years ago, no doubt, but we've always had talent come and go through the system. We were able to be competitive once we had an owner that splashed in free agency. We wouldn't have made the NLCS without guys like Greinke, KRod, and Marcum and resigning Hart, and we don't make the playoffs in 2008 without CC, Cameron, Kendall, and resigning Sheets. In 2005 the Brewers payroll was 40,000,000 vs the Yankees 205,000,000. You just can't be competitive like this, and before knowing the new owners would resign guys like Hart and make a deal for CC at the All Star break, there still wasn't a whole lot of optimism all around that some young prospects would turn the team into a WS contender.

 

The teams in the late 90s and early 2000's had talent, but these guys would be flipped for prospects that would be flipped in a couple years for more prospects, etc. We waited 20 years for an owner that would put together a competitive team and compete in free agency, and now we're complaining he's only patching holes. I'm not saying its been disappointing that we only have 2 postseason appearances to show from Braun, Fielder, Hall, Hardy, Hart, Weeks, Gallardo, Lucroy all coming up through the system, but it's just ridiculous to write off the past ten years as an extension of the previous 10 years minus a few anomalies. We're actually in a position to be upset about a collapse as opposed to being in a position where we're arguing about who to flip for Richie Sexson.

[monty57]

I think you're discounting the moves made by the previous administration that got the team to such a low payroll and to stock the system for the future. There was no intention of winning. Bando was a horrible GM, and the hiring of Dean Taylor was the beginning of a complete rebuild which ultimately led to a period of some success. Eyes were opened that we needed to put money into draft picks, so guys like Nomar Garciaparra (5th round 1991) Alex Fernandez (1st round 1988) and Giambi (17th round 1989) didn't go unsigned. So, instead of signing another washed up free agent, we spent on draft picks like Fielder, Weeks, Braun, etc. That brought the MLB payroll down to ridiculous lows, and added a lot of talent to the system, which led to the period of success we didn't see during the many years where the entire focus was on the MLB roster.

 

Having a low starting payroll and a lot of good pre-arby guys allowed for Attanasio to add a lot of talent through trades where we picked up salary (Carlos Lee) and free agency. That allowed the team to get a lot better very quickly (hence my perfect storm reference). Attanasio was great in finding new revenue streams, and attendance began growing both with Miller Park and when the PR machine started promoting the top prospects who were going to make the Brewers good again.

 

However, once the payroll was maxed, and the good pre-arby guys started getting more expensive, this strategy hit a wall. Then they began trading away prospects (tomorrow) for short-term MLB players (today) and the draft strategy seemed to focus on finding "lower ceiling/higher floor" guys who could be rushed through the system to help out in the "window." From what he's said publicly, it seems to me that Melvin realized a couple of years ago that the window was closed, or at least closing rapidly, and the draft approach changed to looking for high upside guys, which is why we have some promise at the lower levels. However, Attanasio continues to circumvent Melvin and sign free agents to (for the Brewers) big money deals. Fans like this because of the perception of "going for it," but it has financially tied Melvin's hands and put way too much payroll in the hands of too few players on our roster. After now three straight "around-.500" years, we have a lot less talent than we had during the "window," and the next potential wave of impact talent on the farm is a few years out.

 

Pondering over what could have happened is pure speculation, so the real question is what to do going forward. I don't think we will be very good next year, and a key point is Ramirez. I think he's aged out, so I hope we don't spend $14MM to see him fade into retirement. But, with him gone, we don't have a first baseman or a third baseman, and our far-and-away best player has a thumb injury that will potentially never heal, but we will pay him a lot of money for many more years. We do have some guys with potential in the low minors, so I think the best thing to do is to trade away some of the chips we still hold, namely Gomez, Gallardo, Lohse and Broxton, looking for prospects in return.

 

Doing this, we would have a lineup something like this: Lucroy/Maldonado, Clark, Gennett, Segura, Rogers, Braun, Parra, Davis/Schafer and a rotation of Garza, Peralta, Nelson, Fiers, Thornburg/Smith/Jungmann. That lineup probably won't win much, but it's not completely devoid of talent. Plus, I don't think we're going to win anyhow. We get to see what some young guys can do, we add talent to the system (through the aforementioned trades and by getting a decent draft pick), and we free up a lot of money. Since some prospects flame out, by adding talent to the guys we already have, we should be able to find some good major leaguers in the not-too-distant future. It's a rebuild, but not as painful as we had to go through after the Bando years, and not as bad as it will be if we wait yet another year and lose guys like Lohse and Gallardo to free agency for nothing. To me, the prospects they could get now are worth more than one more year in a Brewer uniform.

[reillymcshane]

I provided my 'blow the team up' scenario earlier. Here's the other way to turn this franchise around - at least for a couple of years. It requires spending more money. Sticking at $100 million will force us to mostly tread water. But that just isn't going to cut it. Thus, we increase payroll in this scenario. Also, you don't trade any minor league talent to accomplish this. Here you go:

 

1. Resign A-Ram. 2-years/$24 million. We have no one in the minors, so this fills a huge hole. You could sign Big Panda - but I think he gets a lot more than $12 million a year - and for 4-5 years.

 

2. Sign Adam LaRoche. 2-years/$20 million. Gives us a good OBP guy, decent power. Needs a platoon partner as he struggles against lefties.

 

3. Sign a quality SS/2B backup type who can push Segura and platoon with Scooter if he struggles against lefties - which I think he will. Who this guy is is another story. But that's the ideal scenario.

 

4. Keep Parra for another year. He can back up all the OF positions and start if there are injuries.

 

5. Keep Rogers - or some other right handed hitting 1B to platoon with LaRoche. He can also provide some relief for A-Ram at times at 3B.

 

6. Keep Gallardo for another year.

 

7. Resign Duke. 2-years/$10 million.

 

8. Sign Luke Gregerson. 2-3 years/ $6 million per season.

 

9. Have Jimmy Nelson spend 2015 in the bullpen.

 

Here's the roster, which pay, rounded to the nearest half million.

 

C - Lucroy - 3.0

C - Maldonado - 1.0

1B - LaRoche - 10.0

2B - Scooter - .5

SS - Segura - .5

3B - Ramirez - 12.0

INF - Quality SS/2B backup - 3.0

INF - Rogers (platoon at 1B) - .5

LF - Davis - .5

CF - Gomez - 8.0

LF - Braun - 14.5 (includes a deferred $2.5 million bonus he's due in April)

OF - Parra - 6.0

Of - Schafer or some other guy - .5

Total: $60.00 million

 

Gallardo: 13.0

Lohse: 11.0

Garza: 12.5

Peralta: .5

Fiers: .5

Total: 37.5

 

Broxton: 9.0

Henderson: .5

Thornburg: .5

Kintzler: 1.0

Jeffress: .5

Pena: .5

Nelson: .5

Smith: .5

Luke Gregerson: 6.0

Duke: 5.0

Total: 24.0

 

TOTAL: $121.5 million

 

The bullpen has nine players, but you figure there will be some injuries (if a starter is hurt, Nelson moves into the rotation).

 

I'm guessing on prices (and years) for Duke, LaRoche, Gregerson and A-Ram.

 

This sets the team up for about two years. At that time, A-Ram and LaRoche will be well past their prime. Gomez will be a free agent, as will Lohse and Gallardo.

 

LaRoche would stabilize a bad position, while having an option to sit Segura should be considered essential. Adding a 35-year old starter (LaRoche) is troublesome. The other options aren't pretty, so that's the decision.

 

Regarding Segura - I don't trust that he's going to be any good. If we let our payroll reach $130 million, we could add someone like Jed Lowrie. Not a perfect player, but he'd be a solid addition for 2-3 years, letting Segura backup SS/2B.

 

Another key item is having a deep bullpen. Our rotation isn't great. It's good, and should provide league average production (we have a lot of guys that deliver a 3.50-4.00 ERA). There's nothing wrong with this - it keeps us in every game. But a quality bullpen is critical. If we don't have aces like Greinke or Kershaw, we need solid starters and an exceptional bullpen to win.

 

Of course, this isn't going to happen. We aren't going to expand our payroll to $120-125 million - just like we aren't going to blow up the team either.

 

We'll add guys from the second (or third) tier free agency shelf. I could see us bringing back Corey Hart or someone like that. We'll non-tender guys like Parra to save payroll, and saddle the team with inferior backups. It's a business - I understand that. But the Brewers get killed each year when our depth fails us.

[jerichoholicninja]

Call me a crazy old coot but I feel no matter what changes take place in the offseason, the first time the Brewers play the Cardinals next year the first Cardinal batter gets a fastball in the back. LaRussa and Matheny both have played their little "classy" games on the Brewers perfectly and the Brewers have always come out on the losing side. In 2015, instead of letting them walk all over us and get away with whatever they want like they always do, be the aggressor and start it. You can only take the high road for so long and that's gotten us nowhere. They need to start giving the Cardinals a piece of their own medicine.

[lcbj68c]

The teams in the late 90s and early 2000's had talent, but these guys would be flipped for prospects that would be flipped in a couple years for more prospects, etc. We waited 20 years for an owner that would put together a competitive team and compete in free agency, and now we're complaining he's only patching holes. I'm not saying its been disappointing that we only have 2 postseason appearances to show from Braun, Fielder, Hall, Hardy, Hart, Weeks, Gallardo, Lucroy all coming up through the system, but it's just ridiculous to write off the past ten years as an extension of the previous 10 years minus a few anomalies. We're actually in a position to be upset about a collapse as opposed to being in a position where we're arguing about who to flip for Richie Sexson.

 

+Infinity

 

If I want to go watch the AA team, I'll move to Alabama. You can't just keep flipping prospects over and over and over and over and over and over and expect that voila, one day they'll all just pan out with talent to last for 10 years. I'm fine with the way the Brewers have done business over the past 10 years with the fiscal resources that they have had.

 

I also don't believe that I as a fan, even if I were a season ticket holder, am owed a championship. I'm not owed anything for my loyalty as a fan.

[coolcool]

Call me a crazy old coot but I feel no matter what changes take place in the offseason, the first time the Brewers play the Cardinals next year the first Cardinal batter gets a fastball in the back. LaRussa and Matheny both have played their little "classy" games on the Brewers perfectly and the Brewers have always come out on the losing side. In 2015, instead of letting them walk all over us and get away with whatever they want like they always do, be the aggressor and start it. You can only take the high road for so long and that's gotten us nowhere. They need to start giving the Cardinals a piece of their own medicine.

 

Has there even been bad blood between the players since 2011? I don't recall Matheny bringing in a reliever for the sole purpose of hitting someone like shingles DUI guy did.

[jerichoholicninja]

Call me a crazy old coot but I feel no matter what changes take place in the offseason, the first time the Brewers play the Cardinals next year the first Cardinal batter gets a fastball in the back. LaRussa and Matheny both have played their little "classy" games on the Brewers perfectly and the Brewers have always come out on the losing side. In 2015, instead of letting them walk all over us and get away with whatever they want like they always do, be the aggressor and start it. You can only take the high road for so long and that's gotten us nowhere. They need to start giving the Cardinals a piece of their own medicine.

 

Has there even been bad blood between the players since 2011? I don't recall Matheny bringing in a reliever for the sole purpose of hitting someone like shingles DUI guy did.

 

Benches cleared after the game was over the last time the Cardinals were in Milwaukee.

[The stache]

 

I also don't believe that I as a fan, even if I were a season ticket holder, am owed a championship. I'm not owed anything for my loyalty as a fan.

 

You are absolutely right. You are not owed anything. Nobody is owed anything by the Brewers. But if the franchise wants to continue seeing people come out to the ballpark, having a team that can compete for, and even win a World Series once every twenty years or so, isn't an unfair expectation, either.

[brewcrewdue80]

Call me a crazy old coot but I feel no matter what changes take place in the offseason, the first time the Brewers play the Cardinals next year the first Cardinal batter gets a fastball in the back. LaRussa and Matheny both have played their little "classy" games on the Brewers perfectly and the Brewers have always come out on the losing side. In 2015, instead of letting them walk all over us and get away with whatever they want like they always do, be the aggressor and start it. You can only take the high road for so long and that's gotten us nowhere. They need to start giving the Cardinals a piece of their own medicine.

 

Has there even been bad blood between the players since 2011? I don't recall Matheny bringing in a reliever for the sole purpose of hitting someone like shingles DUI guy did.

 

Early in the season how many times did the Cardinals bean both Gomez and ARam? thrice? I feel like. and I believe ARam took a few days away due to a beaning.

 

That's the smart "Cardinal" Way to get things done. Behind Milw, in the Standings? Bean their two most dangerous hitters til they have to take a seat.

 

That just may be the single reason why I want Roenicke gone! Cardinals have beaned Brewers over and over and not one repercussion for it. Just Flat out, Bean Yadier Molina every single time a Brewer is hbp by a Cardinal. See how much longer Cardinal Pitchers would have beaned our guys? Ribs or hands it's going to hurt. I gave the idea awhile back since the Cardinal Way of Beaning Brewers wasn't being addressed. To simply half charge the mound. Let the Benches clear, the Deke move from the HBP causes a 5-10min. delay. The HBPs by Cardinal Pitchers if you're not going to retaliate, will certainly begin getting MLB's attention due to the constant delays plus the fact that by doing this throughout the year each beaning will be taken noticed more and more. Some point an Ump will just run a Cardinal Pitcher w/o any reaction needed.

[FVBrewerFan]

I have no proof, so I could be dead wrong, but I believe the Brewers record has absolutely nothing to do with the Brewers beaning or not beaning anyone- including the Cardinals. If anything, it could cost a game by getting our pitcher tossed. If the Cardinals, Pirates, or anyone else wants to play that way, let them.

[jerichoholicninja]

I have no proof, so I could be dead wrong, but I believe the Brewers record has absolutely nothing to do with the Brewers beaning or not beaning anyone- including the Cardinals. If anything, it could cost a game by getting our pitcher tossed. If the Cardinals, Pirates, or anyone else wants to play that way, let them.

 

They do and totally get away with it. That's the problem. That's how you end up with Garza getting tossed after hitting a guy on 1-2 count.

[thebruce44]

I have no proof, so I could be dead wrong, but I believe the Brewers record has absolutely nothing to do with the Brewers beaning or not beaning anyone- including the Cardinals. If anything, it could cost a game by getting our pitcher tossed. If the Cardinals, Pirates, or anyone else wants to play that way, let them.

 

Maybe not, but it had something to do with us getting intimidated out of the NLCS against LaRussa.

[Patrick425]

Have not really looked at this thread a whole lot up until today. A few thoughts.

 

- One of the posts suggested off season changes that would bring the total payroll to $121M. The current payroll is at about $103M. I can't see any scenario where Attanasio signs off on a $15-$20M payroll increase next year especially since I'm guessing ticket sales will be down or flat going into the season.

- I think they may have enough core pieces and payroll flexibility to contend next year, but I'm concerned about the following years when the escalation in Braun's contract really kicks in and possibly handcuffs their payroll flexibility.

- Would not mind if they put Gallardo on the market to see what they could get.

[IndyCrew]

I remember when Melvin took over, and then when Mark became owner, and how exciting it was that the team was doing research to figure out how to build a team "the right way." They were utilizing Sabermetrics, pilfering ideas from the A's and Twins, keeping payroll low, drafting upside players that would reach the minors in the same window, and throughout the process, they were keeping us baseball nerds in the loop. Face it, that stuff is like crack to us. After a decade of no plan, no real coherent strategy of building the club, we finally got the transparency we demanded, and it made me feel like I was part of the rebuild.

 

I miss that. Melvin keeps everything close to the vest now, so it makes some of the moves he makes seem like he doesn't have a plan, and he is just randomly patching holes.

 

I'm willing to give Melvin the benefit of the doubt as long as I know he has a plan. I want to hear that he tried to make some trades to replenish the farm, even if there was no interest. I want to hear that he contacted several 1B before he went with Reynolds and O. I want confirmation that his strategy is to get a rotation of 2s and 3s (under market value) because he believes the offense and bullpen will win you games, and getting an Ace isn't realistic at this point.

 

I'm fine with treading water for a couple of years and merely competing for a wildcard spot, as long as they have a strategy to bring up the next wave of impact players together. I just feel out of the loop and can only guess at what they're thinking.