How do we turn this sad franchise around?

[torts]

simple, we just trade all our bad players for all the good players out there.

 

You should be the GM.

 

I accept

[two_three_the_count]

How in the world is this a "sad franchise?"

 

Some would say a franchise going on 45 years without a title is sad.

 

Ben and Sam from Effectively Wild were asked in one of their listener emails "In 100 years, which current team is most likely to still not have a world championship?"

 

They both said the Brewers

[jerichoholicninja]

How in the world is this a "sad franchise?"

 

Some would say a franchise going on 45 years without a title is sad.

 

I don't care about the title. How about making the playoffs only twice in what, 20 plus years?

[dlk9s]

The history of the franchise might be "sad," but the current iteration of it is not.

[JimH5]

I don't think it's a sad franchise.

 

It brings a lot of joy and hope to a lot of people.

 

They provide awesome community outreach, and serve as a catalyst for a great charitable effort.

 

Still, the lack of postseason success is disappointing.

 

And this year's collapse was especially hard to take.

 

But there are pieces there to make next year's team competitive. The Brewers have one of the better owners in the game. And I was really excited by the amateur draft for the long term future.

 

I'm not often optimistic, but I am positive about the Brewers going forward.

[BuckyBrewer61]

Answer seems pretty simple to me. Fire Doug, hire reillymcshane.

[MNBrew]

For as meticulous as you are in so many of your lengthy commentaries, Crew07, the bold-faced comment is blatantly incorrect.

 

No, you missed the point. When Melvin had the money and the motivated owner he signed that kind of player to a horrible contract, I wasn't ignoring the reality of the situation. The point Louis made was that Melvin had been smart enough not to sign those deals which was only true because he hadn't the means or opportunity with the Brewers to do so. Melvin wouldn't stand his ground on guys like Lohse and Garza, Mark A went and got those guys and if Mark A wanted to sign a player to a 7 year $230 million deal are we really expected to believe Melvin would say no, or would he'd do what he's always done? It's not that he's smarter than that, it's simply that he hasn't had the opportunity to make that kind of mistake, but if Mark A wanted to do it, Melvin certainly wouldn't stand in his way.

 

I don't want Mark A making baseball decisions for the Brewers, I'd like him to focus on the business side like increasing revenue streams and let the baseball people handle baseball. I don't a want a Jerry Jones situation and we're teetering on the edge of that lately. As I've point out numerous times over the last 8 years Melvin isn't a visionary, he's an extremely conservative reactionary GM. He has his strong suits but the end result of his regime has been death by a thousand paper cuts, he never assembles enough pitching, enough different types of hitters, or a manager willing to work outside of established protocols so the team keeps running back into the same issues year after year.

No, I didn't miss your point. And I do agree that any owner needs to leave baseball personnel decisions to his baseball execs because often the owner's expertise is in business and they're ultimately still primarily baseball fans. . . . Your premise cites as part of its basis, as fact, a point which is not correct. You're putting causality for the Rangers signing on A-Rod on Melvin, saying HE had the money and a motivated owner. Hicks stepped in, negotiated the deal, and signed A-Rod. Melvin's opinion of the contract, for all practical purposes, was moot. Everyone would've loved to have added A-Rod. But Hicks overstepped his GM, negotiated with his buddy Scott Boras (who proved on multiple occasions to seemingly have Hicks under his spell), threw out absurd money, and in doing so made sure A-Rod had no real excuse to do anything other than to sign with Texas.

 

You may recall that the Yankees were offering $16M/yr. Hicks blew them out of the water at $25M/yr, needlessly negotiating against no one and over-inflating the contract. You can't pin the responsibility/credit/blame for that on Melvin. And if an owner like Hicks is so determined to get "his" superstar that he'll overshoot the other leading offer on the table by over 50% without needing to go to those lengths, thus setting an absurd new high-water mark to the chagrin of most other owners, the objection of the GM would likely at best be duly noted but still ignored. . . . Hicks made that deal happen and then he fired Melvin later when A-Rod didn't do enough to be the franchise's savior.

 

Perhaps I'm speculating a bit in my 2nd-to-last sentence. But your premise of Melvin's intentions is entirely speculative.

[dlk9s]

I don't a want a Jerry Jones situation and we're teetering on the edge of that lately.

Not even remotely close.

[yoshii8]

Maybe it's because my first 20 years watching the Brewers were pretty much terrible, but I really don't think the Brewers are in a sad state right now.

 

You see tons of Brewers merchandise everywhere, and they have never been more popular in my lifetime. Attendance has also never been stronger.

 

Call me crazy, but I think with a few changes, we have a chance to be pretty damn good next year. Our minor leagues are beginning to get some good prospects(Coulter, Arcia, Taylor). Things could be a lot worse.

[jjgott]

Maybe it's because my first 20 years watching the Brewers were pretty much terrible, but I really don't think the Brewers are in a sad state right now.

 

You see tons of Brewers merchandise everywhere, and they have never been more popular in my lifetime. Attendance has also never been stronger..

 

I agree. Like someone said earlier, my baseline for a sad state franchise would be the Bucks. Very little fan support, no national TV coverage, no "stars" to get any sort of national buzz (Greek Freak & Parker are close though). While it has been a disappointing year, I much prefer the agony that comes with falling short of higher expectations than having no expectations whatsoever.

[Invader3K]

Maybe it would be more fair to say that the franchise as a whole is very healthy and sound, but the current and near term state of the MLB team is questionable.

[logan82]

I don't think the franchise is sad, just mediocre. I would like us to take the next step.

[monty57]

I think the team is getting pretty close to the team it has been through much of it's history. A team with a few "name" players surrounded by less-than-stellar talent. With the addition of more playoff spots, teams like this can occasionally make the playoffs, but they aren't good teams. This year's team wasn't a playoff team... they're a .500-ish team that had a hot streak to start the season and was aided by their division rivals' rosters getting decimated by injuries. With this (and the aforementioned Wild Card spots), they were able to stay in the playoff race far longer than their overall talent would suggest.

 

Had we made some different decisions over the past few years, we could be a decent team with a good future, but we decided to always play for "today" and worry about tomorrow when it comes. Well, "tomorrow" is here. It shouldn't have come to this, but here we are. Now, I think that reilly's plan he laid out on the previous page is the way to go. I don't think Attanasio will do it, but if we trade Gallardo, Lohse, Gomez and Broxton, we could add some young talent to the farm. We have some promising prospects in the low minors, and if we supplement that with some "Top 50" and "Top 100" guys, we could have a nice, solid core hitting the MLB level in a couple of years. During the wait, the MLB team will suffer, but it gives us a chance to let some young guys like Nelson, Davis, Fiers, Thornburg, Jungmann, Gennett and others play.

 

I hoped it wouldn't come to a rebuild, and for the past couple of seasons have hoped and prayed we'd do some things to keep it from becoming a necessity, but I now think it's our best option. Unfortunately, I don't think it will happen. Instead, we'll sign another 30-something free agent to a multi-year, eight figure contract, and by the time we want to trade Gallardo and Lohse, they won't have much value. Gomez won't be traded because we never trade anyone of value until they're down to a couple of months on their contract. Not getting any value from our few remaining trade chips just makes it that much more difficult to believe that the next wave of prospects will be enough to get us where we want to be.

[JohnBriggs12]

From June 29 to July 12, this team went 1-11. From August 26 to September 9 they went 1-13.

 

The rest of the year they are 78-52. Collapsing as a unit is the hallmark not just of this year's team but last years as well, when they were done in by a 6-22 May.

 

What is the cause? Are the players so close, that one's failures affects the next guy? Does the manager ignore signs of trouble before they get out of hand? Are the types of players Melvin likes to assemble just guys who are you classic boom or bust types? Or is it a all of the above?

[reillymcshane]

I don't think the franchise is sad, just mediocre. I would like us to take the next step.

This.

 

We build decent, but flawed teams. Our roster construction usually require everything to go right for us to be a playoff caliber club. But that strategy rarely works, especially with limited depth (often due to bad drafting and cutting corners by cheaping out on reserves). Injuries and bad performances happen. Age catches up to players. Our flaws get exposed over the course of a long season.

 

It's a tough cycle to break because blowing up the team means several years of bad results - something ownership doesn't want. I honestly don't blame them, but on the other hand, I'd rather spend a few years rebuilding and strive for sustained success, than try and band aid a flawed product and hope we can get lucky next year.

[3and2Fastball]

Are the types of players Melvin likes to assemble just guys who are you classic boom or bust types?

 

That is a big part of it. Players with long swings, swinging for the HR most of the time, jumping all over the first pitch, and not working the count are all going to be "streaky" ballplayers. You can have a few players like that on a team, but almost an entire team's worth is just plain not smart on the GM's part

 

Lucroy is a notable exception to all of that. Trading for Parra was a step in the right direction.

[lcbj68c]

I think the team is getting pretty close to the team it has been through much of it's history. A team with a few "name" players surrounded by less-than-stellar talent. With the addition of more playoff spots, teams like this can occasionally make the playoffs, but they aren't good teams. This year's team wasn't a playoff team... they're a .500-ish team that had a hot streak to start the season and was aided by their division rivals' rosters getting decimated by injuries. With this (and the aforementioned Wild Card spots), they were able to stay in the playoff race far longer than their overall talent would suggest.

 

While I've said all year that the Brewers played over their heads and were probably closer to a .490 baseball team, the fact of the matter is that this team will probably finish the season 6th of 15 in the National League. Regardless of what the other teams in their division suffer as far as injuries and what hot streaks they had, this team was the 6th best in the NL in terms of record. Let's not pretend that this team is anything near what the team was like the decade Pre-2003.

[fondybrewfan]

I also don't understand why anyone would consider the Brewers a sorry franchise. Yes they haven't won a title but in the near term they have been consistently competitive for about 6 years now and went to the playoffs 3 times. There are many franchises in all sports that are in much worse shape than the Crew. The team has a nice stadium with a pretty solid fan base.

 

The fact of the matter is that if the Brewers didn't play unsustainably well in the first half and rather played pretty much .500 baseball the entire year and ended up at the record we have now no one would be all that upset. This is about what everyone expected coming into the season. Maybe this is a 83-85 win team and if things break right they can make the playoffs. That's basically where they are.

[logan82]

The fact of the matter is that if the Brewers didn't play unsustainably well in the first half and rather played pretty much .500 baseball the entire year and ended up at the record we have now no one would be all that upset. This is about what everyone expected coming into the season. Maybe this is a 83-85 win team and if things break right they can make the playoffs. That's basically where they are.

I would still be upset. I thought they should have made moves towards a 90 win team in 2016 and beyond instead of building a low 80's win team. The Garza signing wasn't bad but I still hate the Lohse signing, unless they turn him into prospects.

[coolcool]

"Sad" is relative - the bottom line is nobody is ever going to be happy. Packer fans whine about squandering their opportunity at another Super Bowl and the window is shrinking despite winning the division 3 straight years with a 15 win season in 2011. Expectations are always one notch above what's attained. In 6 years we will be hearing how the Bucks couldn't capitalize with Jabari and Anteteokounmpo in their prime (after a conference finals loss). The Brewers are night and day better than what they were in the 90s and we're suddenly at the same level with the need to blow the team up and rebuild for 5-10 years.

 

When Attanasio took over the team, the Brewers went 13 years without being above .500 and had a 23 year playoff drought. Rewind to 2006 and ask if fans would be happy if the Brewers had 2 postseason appearances with an NLDS and 5 winning seasons in the next 10 years and I'm sure many would be ecstatic. Then ask Cubs fans in 2006 how happy they'd be in 10 years if the team had accumulated 0 postseason wins and 3 or 4 90+ loss seasons... Or the Twins, 0 postseason wins and 4 consecutive 90 loss seasons. Funny how perspectives change. Cubs fans are happy and optimistic while Brewer fans are depressed and writing off the future to the Cubs already.

 

Not saying anyone should envy the Brewers, but we shouldn't forget how awful going 20 years without competitive baseball was.

[TheCrew07]

I also don't understand why anyone would consider the Brewers a sorry franchise.

 

Again this comes down to how one chooses to frame their perspective or argument.

 

We have 1 WS appearance in franchise history, we just a handful of play-off appearances in total, and we've never been perennial contenders, not even in this most recent run. At our best we've been mediocre, 1 year in the sun followed by 2 down years...

 

There are many posters on this site who lament the Brewers getting kicked to the curb when football starts but there is a huge disparity in the quality of the franchises, the Packers are a marquee franchise in a marquee sport. The Brewers aren't close to that level, and never will be close to that level because with the way they've been operated it's not possible to sustain success over the long-term without turning over your roster. Which is something many fans on this site haven't wanted to do and the Front Office obviously hasn't wanted to do either. The Brewers need to embrace the idea that they will never compete monetarily with the large markets and accept the fact that they have to play the system differently, with a longer view. The rebuilding process should never stop, the talent cycle should never cease, but that's what happened when the Brewers started trading for a stream of short term solutions over the years. The organization went from building to patching, and patching is only going to get you so far as we have seen, it's simply not a sustainable model for Milwaukee. It can be for the Dodgers, Yankees, Angels, Mets, and so on, but not here, there's simply not the money available to build around veterans.

 

I would love for the Brewers to be the Cardinals, and I say that as someone who despises the organization and roots against them at every level, though I am willing to appreciate the success they've had and give their players the respect they deserve. The Cardinals are a marquee franchise, they have a rich history, they do many things very well, and they've sustained success over a very long period of time. The Brewers on the other hand haven't been able to sustain success even at the peaks of the franchise, we're simply in a different class. We haven't even been able to match the success of the Cards over the last 8 years when we've been "at our best".

 

If you want to call that "sad", I'm okay with it. "Mediocre", I'm okay with that too. However we haven't been "good" at our best... we've had some good years, but we haven't been competitive year in and year out, and I've never felt like we were serious WS contenders. The idea being discussed here is that it shouldn't be acceptable to just be average because for so many years the Brewers were awful. If Melvin isn't capable of building a WS team then why should we fear having a different GM take over? Until we win a WS does the quality of the product on the field really matter? Attendance is going to slowly erode because sooner or later most every fan, even no matter how casual, is going to pick up on the way this team continues to cycle up and down years. Cleveland and Atlanta have proven that without winning a WS, support for the team is slowly going to fade regardless of how good the team is.

 

I honestly believe that Brewer fans in general have set the bar way too low, and I do understand that I've been coming at the franchise from an entirely different direction than most posters for a very long time. Maybe though, just maybe, the site as a whole is starting to catch on to what a small minority of us have been harping about for a long time... If 1 play-off series win is the pinnacle of the franchise under MA and DM, what exactly have people been championing? If that's as good as it gets, what exactly are we afraid of losing?

[3and2Fastball]

I believe this thread represents part of why this franchise won't take significant steps forward. If many of the non-casual fans think things are pretty good, then the casual fans will keep turning up at Miller Park regardless of whether Melvin/RRR are brought back and regardless if significant personnel changes happen

 

And if attendance isn't effected, then Mark A won't really be motivated to change much.

 

The real answer as to how do we (we being the fans) turn this franchise around is: stop going to games, stop buying merchandise. Considering that most of the Brewers fans are hard partyin' tail gating casual Baseball fans, things aren't going to change

[FVBrewerFan]

Like someone said earlier, my baseline for a sad state franchise would be the Bucks. Very little fan support, no national TV coverage, no "stars" to get any sort of national buzz (Greek Freak & Parker are close though).

 

See, I disagree. The Bucks are coming off rock bottom with some exciting new players and roster flexibility. I don't care about national exposure, the Brewers don't get that either.

 

Personally, I don't like the word "sad" to describe the Brewers, but I'm not optimistic. That won't stop me from watching them, supporting them, and holding out hope. Quite honestly, it comes down to Braun. If his thumb, or any other injuries are chronic and this is the new normal, I just don't feel very good about the the next couple years.

[coolcool]

And if attendance isn't effected, then Mark A won't really be motivated to change much.

 

The real answer as to how do we (we being the fans) turn this franchise around is: stop going to games, stop buying merchandise. Considering that most of the Brewers fans are hard partyin' tail gating casual Baseball fans, things aren't going to change

 

Yup, those 5 hardcore fans that stop buying tee shirts because they love the team so much are certainly going to turn around the franchise.

[lcbj68c]

The only arguments that I keep reading to justify the Milwaukee Brewers being a "sad franchise" is the on-field product and the general manager. It's been discussed ad nausem for years just now under a different title. This is all about whether Doug Melvin is the man to create a winning team and that's a horse poo take alone to label it a "sad franchise". This franchise has a lot to proud of. Criticize the general manager in a different thread, this franchise isn't a sad one.