How do we turn this sad franchise around?

[Boomer5]

The only plan is the most painful, but it does seem like 2014 was a minor sign of this:

 

1.) Go the Astros and Cubs route by trading away their assets for prospects, top 100 or otherwise. We did this with Yo

2.) Invest in a top end scouting and development program and draft high ceiling players. We did this in 2014.

3.) Either negotiate a buy out of Braun, or just stick him in LF where he can do the least damage for the next 5 years.

[tmwiese55]

Just because you have one good player doesn't mean you should kill the near future of a franchise. They didn't draft and develop good players so they shouldn't have gone for it at any point after 2012. The moves they made would have been the right ones if they had drafted and developed talent. As it is the moves they made spread our talent over all the levels of the majors and minors instead of creating a bubble of talent.

 

So your stance would've been to give up and not try to win in the offseason after being up 1-0 in the NLCS but lost, the fans are hugely behind the team, we have a 28 yr old MVP signed on a reasonable contract. Give up. Since then, what have the try to win moves been, Ramirez, Lohse, Garza pretty much. The only thing we don't have right now is that 20ish draft pick for Lohse. Would our future be drastically different right now with that pick, chances are they would've messed the pick up anyway based on the last 9 yrs. Again, that's the problem. One of those seasons was ruined by the suspension and the other they did almost make the playoffs and if Braun was anywhere close to the player he was they would have made it. Once you're in, anything can happen.

 

To the future, everyone here has nailed it. Simple terms, trade whatever you can right now that makes sense. Overall the scouting/drafting/development teams and hope the guys they bring in actually make it in the next 3-6 years. My take is that if the young guys brought in do make it and we have a chance that we need to go for it at that point. Others would rather trade those guys once they're good and then rinse/repeat. Apparently, we'd be a contender right now if we had Lorenzo Cain and Jake Ordazzi. Well, until they need to be traded this offseason or next anyway.

[TooLiveBrew]

Just because you have one good player doesn't mean you should kill the near future of a franchise. They didn't draft and develop good players so they shouldn't have gone for it at any point after 2012. The moves they made would have been the right ones if they had drafted and developed talent. As it is the moves they made spread our talent over all the levels of the majors and minors instead of creating a bubble of talent.

 

So your stance would've been to give up and not try to win in the offseason after being up 1-0 in the NLCS but lost, the fans are hugely behind the team, we have a 28 yr old MVP signed on a reasonable contract. Give up. Since then, what have the try to win moves been, Ramirez, Lohse, Garza pretty much. The only thing we don't have right now is that 20ish draft pick for Lohse. Would our future be drastically different right now with that pick, chances are they would've messed the pick up anyway based on the last 9 yrs. Again, that's the problem. One of those seasons was ruined by the suspension and the other they did almost make the playoffs and if Braun was anywhere close to the player he was they would have made it. Once you're in, anything can happen.

 

To the future, everyone here has nailed it. Simple terms, trade whatever you can right now that makes sense. Overall the scouting/drafting/development teams and hope the guys they bring in actually make it in the next 3-6 years. My take is that if the young guys brought in do make it and we have a chance that we need to go for it at that point. Others would rather trade those guys once they're good and then rinse/repeat. Apparently, we'd be a contender right now if we had Lorenzo Cain and Jake Odorizzi. Well, until they need to be traded this offseason or next anyway.

His stance was to move on after the 2012 season, not before.

[monty57]

I think that was more to Ennder's comment. Complaining about the Marcum trade or how we didn't trade Ramirez 2 years ago isn't productive to the discussion about how to fix where we are now.

 

Okay. How we fix where we are now is to stop making the type of moves that got us here. It's not one or two specific moves that will "fix" the franchise, but rather a fundamental change in how things are run, which has to come from the owner's desk.

 

Probably the best way to fix where we are now is for fans to stop buying tickets, as that will be what wakes ownership up and causes this change.

[tmwiese55]

I guess he probably did mean after 2012. Doesn't change anything though, Braun was coming off his best season and one year from MVP, would've been back to back if not for the near suspension leading into the season. Team won 83 games and if I recall correctly they finished really strong that year after a slow start, could be wrong on that though. Our only go for it moves of substance are then Lohse/Garza, we'd still only be out that Lohse pick and whatever spare parts we gave for Parra and Broxton last year. We'd still be in the same spot we are right now.

[brewmann04]

lets hope that Mark and Doug now know they have to change it up and that means move some Vets for Hopefully Prospects.

[3and2Fastball]

We don't have anybody in this entire franchise, not in our minor league system, and certainly not in the Brewer front office, that possesses the ability to empower our players. They have done well in the past, and they're paid a lot of money. So, they should just perform, right, Mark?

 

Sometimes, when things start going bad, you need a leader with a reassuring voice to take command. We have none.

 

So, how do we turn it around? That can't even begin because the guys at the top don't acknowledge that there's anything either "sad" about this franchise, nor anything that "needs to be turned around." And, unfortunately, I don't foresee that changing anytime soon.

 

Mark Attanasio is much like a drug addict refusing to admit he has a problem. We've won 11 of our last 45 games, dating back to last year. The Brewers are the first team in MLB history to lead their division for 150 days, and fail to make the playoffs. Mark? There is a problem, and if you can't see that a .244 winning percentage over the last 1/4 of a year isn't a MAJOR problem, then you aren't the man to own this franchise, and I would appreciate you getting rid of it immediately. This isn't the business world, or the stock market.

 

Do you think that somebody like Mark Cuban, or Bob Kraft, or George Steinbrenner, if he were still alive, would tell the media "there's no problem" if their team were playing .250 ball? Of course not. Yet the Brewers are profitable, so Mark apparently doesn't care.

 

I don't need Chicken Little running around yelling "The sky is falling!", but, I do need an owner that says something similar to this:

 

"As the owner of the Milwaukee Brewers, I want to make it absolutely clear to our fans that no stone will be left unturned as we examine why a team that led our division for almost the entire year last year has suddenly become the worst team in baseball. Every single person employed by this franchise, from the lowest minor league level coach, all the way up to the General Manager of the Brewers, is held accountable by me. I will sit down with anybody in my organization that wishes to speak with me, privately if need be, to find answers. I am greatly concerned by the lack of performance I am seeing on the field, and if this continues, changes will be made.

 

I want reassurance that the man at the top is in command, and not just walking around shrugging his shoulders saying "I don't know what's wrong." If your company's stock dropped 30 points, you'd launch an inquiry, right? Well, your franchise is failing, Mark, and consider the paying customers your stockholders. Find answers. Solve the problem. Or, you will see a drop in attendance, and soon.

 

This is an incredibly strong and poignant post, and speaks to the real problem.

 

How do we turn this sad franchise around? Mark A needs to sell it to someone who will run it correctly!

 

That is pretty scary, considering how much of a roll of the dice that is. Or Mark has to change his ways, which seems more remote. Can a Tiger change his stripes? Can a leopard change his spots.

 

The owner blaming the players in the media is really pretty pathetic, in my opinion

[brewmann04]

Well we do also forget what the brewers and their Payroll was like before he took over.

[3and2Fastball]

Well we do also forget what the brewers and their Payroll was like before he took over.

 

That is why it is a roll of the dice.

 

And many people have complained about "looking back" in this thread, so I will be careful how I say this: if, looking forward, the team doesn't sign any free agents over the age of 30/31, only very rarely extends their own players, and instead spends that $$$ on Cuban & Dominican Republican players, it will be money better spent.

 

The willingness to increase payroll is exciting. The foolhardy mistakes they've made while doing so is maddening.

[Ennder]

Can you stop with the hindsight is 20/20 crap? TheCrew and many others have been posting about this for years. This isn't some new thing that just came up with a week ago.

 

Disliking a trade because you disliked it at the time is absolutely fine. But coming here and justifying that your opinion was right based on stats is simply hindsight. To use Odorizzi as an example, he has way too small a sample to know what he is yet, ERA+ is a really flawed stat to begin with, how do we know that he would have developed the same as a Brewer, he finally found his success on a team that seems to be able to churn out pitcher after pitcher. If we had gotten the 2013+ version of Greinke does that really change whether its a good deal or not? If we play a little better and make or win a World Series in 2011 does that change it?

 

Saying you don't like us trading away young pitching is fine, trying to prove via things like this just isn't productive at all.

 

From 2007-2015 (the Braun Era) The Brewers have the 12th most wins in baseball. They have more than any other team in the division except the Cardinals. That includes this simply awful stretch to start this year and bad finish last year, around the all star break last year that was around 9th best. It isn't like this team has been flailing around uselessly. They currently have a roster with some young talent and a load of players who have deservingly been all stars. The current roster was projected to be over .500 by most projection models. This whole thread is starting to just come off as a bunch of smug posters patting themselves on the back and saying I told you so because the team got off to a bad start.

 

I do think a rebuild makes a lot of sense simply because the start is so bad and since Braun's future doesn't seem to be a face of the franchise type one, but I don't agree with a complete fire sale. I also don't agree that the franchise has been 'sad' in recent history. If our franchise has been 'sad' then half the league has been sad.

[superfly]

5) When Brewers players are a year away from free agency, they get traded for younger prospects, instead of constantly overpaying for extensions with Brewers

 

I disagree with this. You have to keep someone(s) as the "face" of the franchise that common fans can identify with. Even at the cost of a few million dollars here and there or a dip in stats. The Red Sox with Ortiz and Pedroia, Yankees with Jeter, Rivera, etc, White Sox with Konerko, Seattle with Ichiro, etc. You can't just cycle every single player in and out of here when their contract is up...that is lunacy. How about for suggesting this, we trade Aaron Rodgers, Jordy Nelson, or Randall Cobb for draft picks "just because their contract is up" and we can get some young talent? Heck, lets trade off Jabari Parker and Giannis too in a few years too, we could always use another draft pick.

 

The trick is figuring out WHICH talent is the one you have to keep. We made the right play with Ryan Braun over Prince Fielder, it just did not work out between the PEDs fiasco and nagging injuries. Life happens, just have to deal with it now. We're coming upon that time with Lucroy and Gomez...while I don't feel Gomez is a face due to injury risks, playing style, cost, etc, there are arguments for Lucroy to stick around here for years to come.

 

The Brewers are a business just like anything else. You need flagship products in order to grow the business...you tell me how many fans are sitting in those Tampa Bay and Oakland stadiums before you tell me I am wrong. We should NOT be out there grabbing every 33 year old in sight, but we also shouldn't be cutting our homegrown talent loose either for draft picks JUST BECAUSE. Draft picks are way overrated unless you are top 10.

[tmwiese55]

Good post Ennder.

 

I actually think the current management does realize a change in strategy is needed to build for the future. They've focused in the direction most are talking here in recent drafts and trades and have been trying in the international markets, getting very close on a couple and getting some others. I guess we'll see how far they're willing to go all in on a rebuild in the next couple months. My guess is they'll do it somewhat but not go all the way and trade Lucroy or Gomez. My guess is they'll try to keep Lucroy on a short extension while holding Gomez until next season's deadline. And as I've said they haven't lost anything of substance the last few years while trying to maintain a competitive team other than the Lohse pick. They've clearly put an effort into restocking the system it's all years away still though, now they can really try to boost it more with a firesale if they choose. The big worry I guess would be whether the current guys in the system and whoever they add in trades will actually make it, since the guys making these moves have failed miserably the last 7 years or so in drafting/development.

[FVBrewerFan]

While we're looking into the past, let's also remember the Brewers very well could have won the WS the year they had Greinke/Yo/Marcum. Marcum had a great year, in fact he was the best SP for a big stretch of that season. But his arm was dead by the time the playoffs started. (RR still should have started Yo in game 5, but that's a whole other debate.) Point being, the trade worked, just had some bad luck. If they would have won the WS that year, I rally doubt anyone would care about losing Lawry and Cain.

 

Similar situation in the Sabathia/Yo/Sheets season. Sheets arm is done right before the playoffs, which changed everything. Now, to be fair, I still don't think thy would have won the WS that year even with Sheets- but we'll never know.

 

The position we're in today has something to do with those trades, but I still believe they were worth it. When you have Fielder, Braun, Weeks, Hart, Yo, etc. in their prime, you go for it. Who knows when they will have that much home-grown talent at the same time ever again?

 

Finally, I said above the Greinke, Marcum, Sabathia trades had something to do with where we are today- but nowhere near entirely. The way the bullpen was built this year is a joke. Decisions they made on the bench players was a joke. No SP depth. Most of all, a very pedestrian Braun has really hurt.

[Ennder]

The entire team has just played poorly so far this year so there is no pointing at any reason for it. It is really hard for any team to play this poorly no matter how bad the actual team is. Even 100+ loss teams don't play this poorly.

[3and2Fastball]

There has never been a team in the last 100 years of MLB that started the season 2-13 and made the playoffs. However we might disagree on how we got here, or the best way to turn things around, let's please not sugarcoat the reality: the 2015 Brewers season is already done.

[Patrick425]

There has never been a team in the last 100 years of MLB that started the season 2-13 and made the playoffs.

 

What about 3-13? Has that ever happened?

[3and2Fastball]

There has never been a team in the last 100 years of MLB that started the season 2-13 and made the playoffs.

 

What about 3-13? Has that ever happened?

 

I love the optimism..... and.... I don't know

 

I will still watch every game (on TV, I won't spend $$$ on this team until Doug Melvin is fired) and root for them through thick & thin.

 

There are several young players on the roster who I feel have the potential to be key contributors (or key trade pieces) in 2017/2018 when this franchise could be turned around: Segura, Gennett, Davis, Nelson, Jeffress, Peralta, etc.... it will be fun to watch their development

[Ennder]

There has never been a team in the last 100 years of MLB that started the season 2-13 and made the playoffs. However we might disagree on how we got here, or the best way to turn things around, let's please not sugarcoat the reality: the 2015 Brewers season is already done.

 

If there was it would probably a team that was thought of as a lock before the season too. This is a Brewer team that needed a lot of things to go their way to make it in the first place. The worst case scenario is we get hot in mid May and get to like 6 games under around June and they decide to hold because we are 'hot'.

[logan82]

I guess he probably did mean after 2012. Doesn't change anything though, Braun was coming off his best season and one year from MVP, would've been back to back if not for the near suspension leading into the season. Team won 83 games and if I recall correctly they finished really strong that year after a slow start, could be wrong on that though. Our only go for it moves of substance are then Lohse/Garza, we'd still only be out that Lohse pick and whatever spare parts we gave for Parra and Broxton last year. We'd still be in the same spot we are right now.

It wasn't just giving up that pick. It was not trading any other players in addition to signing Lohse. It was the whole direction from that point on.

 

I really didn't mind the Garza signing. All we used was money.

[pacopete4]

Can still trade Lohse for prospects to make up for that pick. It's just a thing of whether or not we actually do that. I could see DM trying to sign him after this season again.

[tmwiese55]

We just traded Yo and can trade lots of guys now. What proven pieces would we have had to trade before the Lohse signing? Weeks was on an untradeable contract and wasn't performing. Maybe Hart before his last year when he hurt his knees. Ramirez after one year, but if it was up to you they shouldn't have even signed him. Bullpen scraps like Axford etc? All I can think of off the top of my head is Greinke, Yo and Hart, and they did it with Yo and Greinke. Well I guess Braun coming off back to back MVP level campaigns with a diminished trade value due to the PED near suspension.

[monty57]

Can still trade Lohse for prospects to make up for that pick. It's just a thing of whether or not we actually do that. I could see DM trying to sign him after this season again.

 

He has to show he hasn't hit a cliff before we'll be able to trade him. It looked like he was one of those few "ageless" guys right up until the season started. Hopefully he's in a rough patch and starts pitching well, but if he doesn't straighten things out, we won't get anything for him.

 

Had we traded Lohse a month ago, we probably would have got a decent prospect, but as it stands right now I think the best we'd get from trading the group of free-agents-to-be (Lohse, Ramirez, Broxton, Parra) is salary relief. I don't think we'd get much if we shopped Garza, and no one will touch Braun.

 

I think the only players we may think about trading that could bring anything back would be Gomez and Lucroy, and I highly doubt Lucroy will be traded. If we went for "best package" and not "best MLB ready package," trading Gomez could bring in a lot of talent. We just might have to wait a couple of years for that talent to reach the majors.

 

Most likely scenario:

 

-We trade away whatever we can of Lohse, Ramirez, Broxton and Parra for salary relief and some minor league filler material. This will allow for the owners to not lose money this year, so they won't be too upset with things.

-We hold on to Lucroy, Gomez and Garza.

-We use the money that comes off the books to sign a couple of free agents (as much as we like our ex-Cards, I'm looking at John Lackey as a SP, and Juan Uribe is a free swinger, so he'll fit right in at 3B)

-We will field a team of Lucroy, Lind, Gennett, Segura, Uribe?, Davis, Gomez, Braun with a rotation of Garza, Peralta, Nelson, Lackey?, Jungman/Fiers

-Fans will be fed the line that "we've made some moves and now have a good shot at the playoffs"

-We will once again hold this same conversation next year, as we have for most of the recent past.

[tmwiese55]

Heck they even did it with Aoki and got a quality young arm back.

 

Really the more you've forced me to think about this has made me realize how much they did well with the trades over the years overall and that it really all comes down to poor drafting/development since that group of guys all came up together.

[reillymcshane]

I just hope going forward management and ownership recognize that this season is probably lost, not hoodwink themselves into thinking we are better than we are, and move forward with a comprehensive plan to make us a contender down the road. We've all talked about how that can happen, and I hope the club makes some wise choices.

 

I'm not so much concerned about all the past decisions than those going forward. I realize we can learn from those past decisions, but to me, it's about getting the entire organization on the same page going forward, putting in place the right people (GM, coaches, managers, scouts, etc.), and making sound baseball decisions.

 

It's about drafting well, using the international market (something we've been really bad about), using free agency wisely, maintaining organizational and financial flexibility, and making sure we stay on course with said plans.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

As we look back philosophically, I'm not sure this crummy start really tells us anything. There have been views by some (articulately and consistently by TheCrew) that we shouldn't trade prospects and try and extend out the competitiveness. Others are in the "maximize the window" camp. The Brewers fit more in the latter. Was an '08 appearance and an 11 NLCS enough? Who knows. I certainly enjoyed it. It was a reasonable approach IMO, but there is a cost to it. Maybe if we pursued the former, we win 83-85 games a year and never sniff the playoffs. Perhaps we do just as well or even better with the Odirizzis and Escobars of days gone by and the future looks brighter. We'll never know. All I think we can reasonably say is if you make the trades and go for "higher highs" (and maybe 11 was that higher high), you should expect "lower lows" at some point. This has always been looked at as an end of the window year. The poor start has made it more obvious. I'm more philosophical about it. For the most part they've been competitive and exciting for 8 prior years. After 15 hopeless ones before that, I really enjoyed it.

 

It's time to regroup. Time to make tougher decisions. I hope they draft well. I hope they trade everything that isn't nailed down or won't help the team in 3-5 years. I'll still be a Brewers fan while they're doing it and I hope they do it well so I can enjoy them more in my retirement.

 

They way they did it may not have been everyone's cup of tea, but I don't think it was unreasonable. It's just time to pay the piper.