Question about Mark A now that the Crew failed to make playoffs (Latest 10/10: Roenicke will return, Johnny Narron and Iorg gone)

[TURBO]

Preseason projections were for about 83 wins or so...currently on pace for 83 wins. So assuming the freefall ends at some point, it's fair to say the 2014 team met expectations. If the losing streak came in April and the winning streak now, none of this would be an issue.

 

I doubt the Brewers coaches, management or players will share this view.

 

This division was just laying there to be grabbed....Reds, Cards and Pirates all had huge injuries... and they still threw away the division and probably the playoffs with a lethal combination of bad pitching, horrible hitting and poor defense.

 

I'd like to add bad managing/coaching and general managing to the list of reasons we blew the playoffs.

[3and2Fastball]

I'd like to see Mark A clean house in the next few days to send a clear & concise message to players & fans that the type of collapse that the Brewers have had will not be tolerated.

[Invader3K]

I'd like to see Mark A clean house in the next few days to send a clear & concise message to players & fans that the type of collapse that the Brewers have had will not be tolerated.

 

I think he'll wait until after the season to send any message. "Cleaning house" at this point wouldn't really accomplish anything.

[monty57]

Preseason projections were for about 83 wins or so...currently on pace for 83 wins. So assuming the freefall ends at some point, it's fair to say the 2014 team met expectations. If the losing streak came in April and the winning streak now, none of this would be an issue.

 

Yep. If we opened the crystal ball at the start of the season and saw that with 19 games left we would be a half game out of the Wild Card, pretty much everyone here would have said "I'll take that."

 

It's a long season, so at the end of the year, teams generally end up playing around their talent level. It's interesting how the timing of hot and cold streaks can change how teams are viewed. The last couple of years, the cold streak happened early, so everyone gave up, but the hot second halves left people with hope for the future. This year, with the hot streak at the start, people began to believe that the team was better than they appeared "on paper," and the cold second half has fans headed into depression. Such is sports.

[3and2Fastball]

Ain't it just about inevitable now? A collapse like this makes it a tough sell to season ticket holders without making changes.

[trwi7]

I'd like to see Mark A clean house in the next few days to send a clear & concise message to players & fans that the type of collapse that the Brewers have had will not be tolerated.

 

I think he'll wait until after the season to send any message. "Cleaning house" at this point wouldn't really accomplish anything.

 

It would give us a head start on interviewing candidates for the job(s).

[DocLuna7]

I posted this in a different thread over a week ago, but if this team finishes below .500 this year, as it seems it is highly possible, than there needs to be some wholesale changes going on. It is simply unacceptable to go from 18 games over .500 or whatever it was to this joke we are watching right now.

[brewmann04]

I agree with a previous poster who said about going with the young Pitchers. I would serious look into trading Either Loshe or Yo in the Offseason. Mark is not going to accept this collaspe without doing something

[nate82]

This is going to be a funny off season when nothing happens.

 

Roenicke will not be fired nor will Melvin. At best the perverbial punching bag the hitting coach will be let go but that doesn't really do anything.

 

I would rather see Fiers be traded and see if we can find someone dumb enough to give up a nice prospect. This is the perfect sell high opportunity here.

[brewmann04]

I can't believe they wil stand Pat not going to happen changes will be made .

[DuWayne Steurer]

Preseason projections were for about 83 wins or so...currently on pace for 83 wins. So assuming the freefall ends at some point, it's fair to say the 2014 team met expectations. If the losing streak came in April and the winning streak now, none of this would be an issue.

 

Yep. If we opened the crystal ball at the start of the season and saw that with 19 games left we would be a half game out of the Wild Card, pretty much everyone here would have said "I'll take that."

 

It's a long season, so at the end of the year, teams generally end up playing around their talent level. It's interesting how the timing of hot and cold streaks can change how teams are viewed. The last couple of years, the cold streak happened early, so everyone gave up, but the hot second halves left people with hope for the future. This year, with the hot streak at the start, people began to believe that the team was better than they appeared "on paper," and the cold second half has fans headed into depression. Such is sports.

 

 

When there's 30 games to go you can't just say "well, this is an 83 win team, so they are sure to hit a streak where they drop 14 of 17 games". Everyone is aware that things 'even out', but previous over-achievement is not a predictor of future events. a 'hot streak' does not require that an accompanying 'cold streak' evens things out.

 

When you're 15 games over .500 with 30 to play, and just completely tank, it's not 'evening out', it's a collapse.

[Pugger]

I'd like to see Mark A clean house in the next few days to send a clear & concise message to players & fans that the type of collapse that the Brewers have had will not be tolerated.

 

I think he'll wait until after the season to send any message. "Cleaning house" at this point wouldn't really accomplish anything.

 

I'm with you. I doubt any heads will roll until after the season expires.

 

This collapse by the Crew is really mind numbing for me. How can a group of players play so well for so long and then behave like they never played baseball before? The coaches and players behave like they are all in shock at what has happened.

[Pugger]

Preseason projections were for about 83 wins or so...currently on pace for 83 wins. So assuming the freefall ends at some point, it's fair to say the 2014 team met expectations. If the losing streak came in April and the winning streak now, none of this would be an issue.

 

Yep. If we opened the crystal ball at the start of the season and saw that with 19 games left we would be a half game out of the Wild Card, pretty much everyone here would have said "I'll take that."

 

It's a long season, so at the end of the year, teams generally end up playing around their talent level. It's interesting how the timing of hot and cold streaks can change how teams are viewed. The last couple of years, the cold streak happened early, so everyone gave up, but the hot second halves left people with hope for the future. This year, with the hot streak at the start, people began to believe that the team was better than they appeared "on paper," and the cold second half has fans headed into depression. Such is sports.

 

 

When there's 30 games to go you can't just say "well, this is an 83 win team, so they are sure to hit a streak where they drop 14 of 17 games". Everyone is aware that things 'even out', but previous over-achievement is not a predictor of future events. a 'hot streak' does not require that an accompanying 'cold streak' evens things out.

 

When you're 15 games over .500 with 30 to play, and just completely tank, it's not 'evening out', it's a collapse.

 

And I can't see Mark A not do something about it after the season. This collapse is historic IMO. Roenicke might not be the culprit but normally when things go south the manager is the first to go because you can't fire the entire team. A thorough house cleaning from Melvin on down might not be out of the question.

[Invader3K]

I really think the house cleaning is going to happen (assuming a miracle turnaround doesn't happen). Attanasio isn't going to sit by and watch season ticket sales go into the toilet without doing something. Just firing Narron isn't going to do anything at this point. I really think this will be the off-season that Doug Melvin finally leaves Milwaukee, and Roenecke will be a casualty as well.

[Bombers]

I think some are confusing what Mark A is with being a fan. He is an owner. He has a business that he wants to see make money. That is the utmost importance of any business owner. Mark A allowed Doug to balloon the payroll to over $100 million. It is the 16th highest payroll in baseball.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/

 

Melvin returned the favor with building a roster that has Milwaukee having the 8th highest average attendance in all of baseball. We have almost matched last seasons total draw with 9 home games to play.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance

 

The Brewers are going to make money again this year. So what is the incentive for Mark A to say, lets change this up. As a fan, sure we want change - it isn't our money - roll the die - let the heads roll. Change up every spot in the organization. But we are fans, fanatics, not owners. And sometimes the grass isn't always greener on the other side.

 

At the end of the day, I would be truly shocked if Melvin gets canned. As for coaches, sure I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't at least one change. (As some have said - Counsel to the bench coach anyone?) ... Changes will be made, but drastic changes? I just don't see it happening. (And watch 3, 2, 1 .... here comes the headline - Brewers can everyone! lol)

[Invader3K]

The Brewers are going to make money again this year. So what is the incentive for Mark A to say, lets change this up. As a fan, sure we want change - it isn't our money - roll the die - let the heads roll. Change up every spot in the organization. But we are fans, fanatics, not owners. And sometimes the grass isn't always greener on the other side.

 

Yes, I am sure the team will again make money this year. But how are ticket sales going to look during the off-season after the team finishes with a losing record and misses the playoffs after a disastrous collapse?

[Bombers]

The Brewers are going to make money again this year. So what is the incentive for Mark A to say, lets change this up. As a fan, sure we want change - it isn't our money - roll the die - let the heads roll. Change up every spot in the organization. But we are fans, fanatics, not owners. And sometimes the grass isn't always greener on the other side.

 

Yes, I am sure the team will again make money this year. But how are ticket sales going to look during the off-season after the team finishes with a losing record and misses the playoffs after a disastrous collapse?

That is a good question and clearly remains to be seen. But the Brewers haven't averaged under 30,000 through the turn styles since the 2006 season when we finished 12 games under .500. Next season will have a lot of the same faces with a lot of optimism in the off-season. The Brewers marketing is second to none - and they will bring in the crowd again. (And most likely securing another season of 30k+ average through the gates.) The season at semi "risk" would be the 2016 season as we have a lot of expiring contracts and if we are horrible in 2015, that might be the year where we have a dip in attendance.

[3and2Fastball]

I think some are confusing what Mark A is with being a fan. He is an owner. He has a business that he wants to see make money. That is the utmost importance of any business owner. Mark A allowed Doug to balloon the payroll to over $100 million. It is the 16th highest payroll in baseball.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/

 

The Brewers have a long history of casual fans who love to drink beer, tailgate and have fun at the ballpark in the summer but say "same old Brewers" when mid-August comes around and turn 97% of their attention to the Green Bay Packers.

 

Mark A came in and by building a team that stays in contention many years and has made the playoffs a couple of times, the culture around Miller Park changed and it gives fans hope that the Crew can actually be good & a contender year in and year out. Mark A reignited excitement and enthusiasm about the Brewers.

 

The Brewers are dangerously close, now, after this epic collapse, to taking a huge step backwards with the fan base.

 

If they bring back this same roster, essentially, with the same GM & same manager, it is going to be an extremely difficult sell to the fans. The Brewers could lose a significant amount of money next year.

 

I see Mark A as having 2 choices: wholesale changes in the player roster including unprecedented dips into free agency, or cleaning house with the front office.

 

The fans need to see that the 2015 Brewers won't be the "same old Brewers"

[Bombers]

I think some are confusing what Mark A is with being a fan. He is an owner. He has a business that he wants to see make money. That is the utmost importance of any business owner. Mark A allowed Doug to balloon the payroll to over $100 million. It is the 16th highest payroll in baseball.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/

 

The Brewers have a long history of casual fans who love to drink beer, tailgate and have fun at the ballpark in the summer but say "same old Brewers" when mid-August comes around and turn 97% of their attention to the Green Bay Packers.

 

Mark A came in and by building a team that stays in contention many years and has made the playoffs a couple of times, the culture around Miller Park changed and it gives fans hope that the Crew can actually be good & a contender year in and year out. Mark A reignited excitement and enthusiasm about the Brewers.

 

The Brewers are dangerously close, now, after this epic collapse, to taking a huge step backwards with the fan base.

 

If they bring back this same roster, essentially, with the same GM & same manager, it is going to be an extremely difficult sell to the fans. The Brewers could lose a significant amount of money next year.

 

I see Mark A as having 2 choices: wholesale changes in the player roster including unprecedented dips into free agency, or cleaning house with the front office.

 

The fans need to see that the 2015 Brewers won't be the "same old Brewers"

And what I am saying is Doug Melvin has put together teams that have averaged 30k+ fans since the 2007 season. I just don't see incentive from the owner to change that. Regardless of what we think could end up being a "difficult sell." I just don't think it will be. Like you said "The Brewers have a long history of casual fans who love to drink beer, tailgate and have fun at the ballpark in the summer but say "same old Brewers" when mid-August" ... So us beer drinking, summer loving, tailgating fans are coming regardless. All you need to be is somewhat successful and we will really stomp out the ticket sales. (Like this year. Average attendance is good enough for 8th best in all of baseball. The teams in front of us are LAD, StL, NYY, SF, LAA, BOS, DET - all drastically larger markets than us.)

 

Teams make drastic "cleaning house" type moves when they see declining attendance and ultimately start losing money. In my opinion I just don't see either of those happening in 2015.

[Bombers]

Some more food for thought.

 

In November 2009, the Packers dropped to 4-4 losing to the Tampa Bay Buccs. The same bucs who hadn't won a game since November 2008. The same Buccaneers, who hadn't scored more than 21 points in a game that season, tallied 21 unanswered points in the fourth quarter alone. The GB fans were calling for Ted Thompson and Mike McCarthy's head like no other. Fire them ALL! That was a common thought. But for what? Why would they throw it all away and start over. (And in GB you are dealing with a president and a board of directors - no owner) ... But I still knew no one was getting fired. Not after just making it to the NFC Championship in 2007. Drastic decisions are for desperate times. The Packers were not desperate then and the Brewers are not desperate now. Our future as an organization still looks bright.

 

Now we all know the Packers went on and won the Super Bowl the next year (not saying the Brewers are winning it all in 2015) - but sometimes you have to take a step back as a fan and put yourself in the shoes of the decision makers and ask yourself - have I seen enough of this regime? Do I want to head in a completely different direction?

[logan82]

The Brewers have needed to take a small step back to create a balloon of talent for a couple years.

[3and2Fastball]

Some more food for thought.

 

In November 2009, the Packers dropped to 4-4 losing to the Tampa Bay Buccs. The same bucs who hadn't won a game since November 2008. The same Buccaneers, who hadn't scored more than 21 points in a game that season, tallied 21 unanswered points in the fourth quarter alone. The GB fans were calling for Ted Thompson and Mike McCarthy's head like no other. Fire them ALL! That was a common thought. But for what? Why would they throw it all away and start over. (And in GB you are dealing with a president and a board of directors - no owner) ... But I still knew no one was getting fired. Not after just making it to the NFC Championship in 2007. Drastic decisions are for desperate times. The Packers were not desperate then and the Brewers are not desperate now. Our future as an organization still looks bright.

 

Now we all know the Packers went on and won the Super Bowl the next year (not saying the Brewers are winning it all in 2015) - but sometimes you have to take a step back as a fan and put yourself in the shoes of the decision makers and ask yourself - have I seen enough of this regime? Do I want to head in a completely different direction?

 

That is a completely different franchise. The Packers have won more NFL Championships than any other team and have sold out every game for decades.

 

The Brewers have never won a World Series. They have never sold out every game in a season. Their fanbase is much more fragile

[FVBrewerFan]

have I seen enough of this regime? Do I want to head in a completely different direction?

 

Yes and yes.

 

And interesting analogy with the Packers, because it's time for a change there as well. I'm a big believer in regime change in pro sports, unless someone is just doing an incredibly good job that can't be argued. Otherwise things get stagnant. Give it another year. Try replacing the coaches below the Manager/ Head Caach...ok that buys another year.

 

No, pull the band-aid off in one rip, and start over. It doesn't mean DM is a horrible GM, or even that RR is a horrible manager. Sometimes it's just best to bring in new people with new ideas and approach, and I think this one of those times. Of course, none of that will happen, just saying what I WANT to see.

[Bombers]

3and2 - I agree - it is completely different but the thought of firing our current regime has to ring home for Mark A, and I am not sure it does. (Just like it didn't then for the Packers decision makers, even though the fans wanted it.) If Mark fires them all and completely cleans house - I would be absolutely shocked. I just don't see him doing that. IMO.

 

Logan - I agree about the small step back. I think we should next summer if we are not in it. As next season has a lot of names coming off the books and potential mid-season trade bait. (Lohse, Broxton, Parra, Ramirez) ... If the Brewers are bad next year, I make all sorts of trades and re-tool for 2016/2017.

[trwi7]

Our future as an organization still looks bright.

 

How? The Cardinals are younger and better than us. The Pirates are younger and better than us. The Cubs are just starting to reap the rewards of their rebuild in addition to their massive financial advantage over every other team in the division.

 

Why should we be optimistic for next year after a likely 3rd place finish while being one of the older teams in the division in addition to the worst farm system in the division?

 

What happens if Ramirez leaves in the off season? If Lohse continues his second half decline next year? If Braun is an .800 OPS hitter going forward?

 

There's just not a lot to be optimistic about with this team moving forward when compared with the rest of the division.