Would the Brewers fire Roenicke

[yoshii8]

I don't think they'd fire Roenicke, but I didn't think they would fire Yost, so who knows? I wouldn't be upset if they did.

[Bombers]

The 2nd piece I bolded, sure, get more guys who are patient at the plate. I would love it! But the bad news is then have a fire sale as Gomez, Braun, Ramirez, Scooter, Davis, Reynolds, Segura are all first pitch swingers. This whole team has been built around swing first guys. (Thus why they are in the bottom 5 in total walks as a team. Oakland leads baseball and has over 150 more walks than us.)

 

The entire team has been COACHED to be first pitch swingers. It's why Davis was so screwed up in April. Funny how he's looked much better since then.

I agree, they have been. Davis had a 12% walk rate in AAA with 421 PA. In the Majors he has a 6% walk rate.

[jerichoholicninja]

Being aggressive is fine. But after a while pitchers learn this and don't throw strikes early in the count. Then you need to make an adjustment, not swing even harder and more frequently.

[TheCrew07]

Hitting is like pitching, if you become predictable, they you become easy to game plan against. I'm all for swinging at the first pitch if it's "your" pitch because I hate when a hitter arbitrarily takes a FB thigh high down the middle and then swings at crap. I'd rather the hitter take cuts at the best hitter's pitch he's going to see during an AB. However swinging at the first pitch, just to swing at the first pitch, is dumb.

[Pugger]

Opposing pitchers know we are free swingers so why should they throw a first pitch strike and give guys like Gomez a hittable pitch? Have him swing at garbage, get ahead in the count and make him look foolish screwing himself into the ground at strike 3. This bunch has no patience at the plate and it is a major surprise if one of our guys walks. Of course we'll get a walk and then the runner will get thrown out at 2nd or we'll hit into yet another inning killing double play.

[FVBrewerFan]

I agree, and it is one tangible fault RR has. He confuses aggressiveness with undisciplined. They are two diferent things, and this is manifested at the plate, on the basepaths, and at times on the mound.

 

He has said over and over again he wants his guys to be free swingers. I'm over-simplifying I'm sure, but what ever happened to "swing at strikes, don't swing at balls." Same on the bases. You take the game situation into account and decide when it makes sense to send someone home, try to steal a base, etc. RR doesn't care, he wants to run no matter what and keep swinging no matter what.

 

No doubt, he has other strengths and weaknesses. But his "style of play" is something tangible. His love affair with griity veterans has also been a problem over the years, including this one. As mentioned above, they had little to lose by throwing Rogers and/or Clark at 1B a couple months ago already. Or even giving guys like Gomez, Valez, Halton a shot as the 4th OF.

 

1-10 scale, I have no idea what I would give RR. I'm not calling for his head, but at this point it wouldn't bother me if he was replaced. But that's not going to happen. Would love to start out next season with Counsell. I would even consider Matt Erickson.

[monty57]

Prior to the season, most figured that if things went well, the Brewers would fight for a Wild Card spot, but injuries could sink the ship due to lack of depth. With around a month to go, we're fighting for a playoff spot. I warned after the hot start not to get too high on the highs or too low on the lows. Hot streaks don't last forever and neither do cold streaks. Let's just hope this cold streak ends prior to the upcoming Cardinal series.

[jerichoholicninja]

I agree, and it is one tangible fault RR has. He confuses aggressiveness with undisciplined. They are two diferent things, and this is manifested at the plate, on the basepaths, and at times on the mound.

 

He has said over and over again he wants his guys to be free swingers. I'm over-simplifying I'm sure, but what ever happened to "swing at strikes, don't swing at balls." Same on the bases. You take the game situation into account and decide when it makes sense to send someone home, try to steal a base, etc. RR doesn't care, he wants to run no matter what and keep swinging no matter what.

 

No doubt, he has other strengths and weaknesses. But his "style of play" is something tangible. His love affair with griity veterans has also been a problem over the years, including this one. As mentioned above, they had little to lose by throwing Rogers and/or Clark at 1B a couple months ago already. Or even giving guys like Gomez, Valez, Halton a shot as the 4th OF.

 

1-10 scale, I have no idea what I would give RR. I'm not calling for his head, but at this point it wouldn't bother me if he was replaced. But that's not going to happen. Would love to start out next season with Counsell. I would even consider Matt Erickson.

 

Interesting you should mention this because before the season even started, in the minor league coaching thread I asked if Erickson was being groomed to be the Brewers manager someday. I don't know much about his managing style or strengths and weaknesses but he's a former Brewer and from Wisconsin. That has to put him near the top of Mark and Doug's list of potential manager candidates.

[RWeeksFan23]

Roenicke's a terrible manager, but I doubt he gets fired. He just signed an extension and he seems to be well-liked by MA and DM.

[Lee16]

I read this thread before I fell asleep and proceeded to have a terrible nightmare that we fired RRR only to hire Kirk Gibson.

[ELCABALLO45]

Lets see..

 

1. His best player (Braun) is having his worst season ever in the majors and has been battling injuries all year.

 

2. His other 2 legit stars are since the all star break..

 

1. Lucroy - .748 OPS

2. Gomez - .735 OPS

 

3. He lost his 7th inning set up guy and his closer, forcing him to use Will Smith way to much and if it wasn't for K-Rod there is a good chance the Brewers are at or under .500 at this point.

 

4. His best options at 1B are still Mark Reynolds and Lyle Overbay (I'm looking at you Doug Melvin)

 

5. His All Star Shortstop last year for some reason morphed into Adam Everett.

 

Yeah he is not getting fired, and the fact that we are even in this position is amazing. Not saying its because of Ron, but to fire him after everything would be silly.

[LouisEly]

I'd love to see a stat from the first two games of this series (or even the losing streak) about how many outs the Brewers made on pitches outside of the strike zone (either swing and miss for a K or hitting a ball out of the strike zone into an out).

 

It's not because of swinging at the first pitch. You haven't seen starting pitchers with pitch counts in the 80s and 90s in the 8th/9th inning (with the exception of Kershaw, but that's because he's the best pitcher in the game). They've still been getting into the other team's bullpen in the 6th/7th innings. But they've appeared to be swinging at a lot of pitches outside of the zone deep into counts trying to make something happen.

 

What RRR has said to his team about that, I don't know. That's what's on the manager.

[nate82]

Just noticed that other than the Rangers (who quit months ago), no team in baseball has lost more than two in a row...we're going on seven and getting blown out in most of them. Just embarrassing.

 

 

 

The Pirates lost 7 in a row in early or mid August I believe and the Pirates again just lost 3 straight to the Cardinals. So your first statement is false.

 

 

Roenicke has about a .001% chance of being fired even if the team loses every game this month.

[brewcrewdue80]

Just noticed that other than the Rangers (who quit months ago), no team in baseball has lost more than two in a row...we're going on seven and getting blown out in most of them. Just embarrassing.

 

 

 

The Pirates lost 7 in a row in early or mid August I believe and the Pirates again just lost 3 straight to the Cardinals. So your first statement is false.

 

 

Roenicke has about a .001% chance of being fired even if the team loses every game this month.

 

Nate the day he posted that it was true. No other team had more than 2 Losses in a row. Still the worst team playing in Baseball in the past 15days.

[MNBrew]

This collapse (hopefully only temporary with a good rebound coming, but it sure doesn't feel that way) is incredibly demoralizing, but as ElCaballo45 just pointed out, the majority of the key issues aren't Roenicke's fault and I don't believe he should take the fall for this -- nor should Melvin, who, IMO, is one of the best GMs in the game, all in all doing pretty darn well in the smallest market in the bigs.

 

To me the only thing crazier than the idea of firing Roenicke is that somehow Craig Counsell deserves to be manager or GM or in any kind of point-guy leadership role with this team. He's a good baseball guy, but he's no Harvey Kuenn (hometown guy) and any notion of hiring him for anything certainly reeks to me of blind homer-ism. Heck, I never get why Brewers fans loved the guy on the field even though he totally sucked except with the glove and at making the pitcher throw a lot of pitches to him -- before he'd eventually make the out anyway (Lyle Overbay, anyone?).

[monty57]

To me the only thing crazier than the idea of firing Roenicke is that somehow Craig Counsell deserves to be manager or GM or in any kind of point-guy leadership role with this team. He's a good baseball guy, but he's no Harvey Kuenn (hometown guy) and any notion of hiring him for anything certainly reeks to me of blind homer-ism. Heck, I never get why Brewers fans loved the guy on the field even though he totally sucked except with the glove and at making the pitcher throw a lot of pitches to him -- before he'd eventually make the out anyway (Lyle Overbay, anyone?).

 

I believe that when Fielder left for free agency, Corey Hart said the team's biggest loss that offseason wasn't Prince Fielder, but Counsell for his leadership in the clubhouse. I doubt stat guys would put much credence in that statement, and watching him play that year I wondered why they didn't cut him, but it shows that he could probably be good at managing players.

 

That said, I do not believe that Roenicke or Melvin will be fired. If anything, I think that Brian Anderson will eventually leave for a bigger stage when his contract is up and Counsell will take his spot.

[brewcrewdue80]

Every Loss in a row here adds 10% probability of him getting fired. I'd say we're at 30% after that sweeping of the Cubs. The only pitching matchup that appears in our favor vs STL is the Fiers vs. Lackey matchup. Can easily be swept vs. the Cardinals and be 7games behind them after Sunday. And Miami isn't a cakewalk team having Yelich and Stanton to mash against our pitching. If the losses pile up and we're not selling out every game of the Reds series because the team is out of the Playoff picture....It's over.

Johnny Narron will be the first to go here if the team doesn't put together some 4 or more run scoring games vs. StL. It's embarrassing to have scored 2runs or less for a week straight now. And StL has the Pitching to put up 0s on that scoreboard.

 

IF I'm right and Narron is canned here shortly, then Roenicke/Melvin's jobs are on a very Hott seat.

[folly412]

Johnny Narron will be the first to go here if the team doesn't put together some 4 or more run scoring games vs. StL. It's embarrassing to have scored 2runs or less for a week straight now. And StL has the Pitching to put up 0s on that scoreboard.

 

I'm for it, but who would be the replacement? The bench coach is the usual fallback, but not like turning over the hitting to little bro is going to be expected to jolt the offense. Iorg or Guerrero are the only options on the current staff, or calling up Sweet or Skube from the team with the fewest runs scored and lowest OBP in the PCL.

[FVBrewerFan]

If it's this season, doesn't matter who the replacement is, it will be an interim manager. It would take a lot for RR to get fired this month yet, and that would mean they're out of the race. His son could be player/manager at that point, doesn't matter.

 

During the off-season, there's obviously more time to consider all the options. IF they do make a change (and I think it's a huge IF) they need to find a manager who will get players to listen and adjust. By all accounts RR is very hands-off, and doesn't like to tinker with how guys play. For the most part, I don't even have a problem with that. But there are times, and there are players who need to change their approach.

 

Everyone has their own style, so I'm not looking for a certain "type" of manager. I don't care if they yell and scream, get results through respect, being a "players coach," etc. Doesn't matter to me. We just need someone who can get through to some of these guys that swinging at a fastball above your head on a 3-2 count with RISP isn't such a good idea.

 

Again, just to be clear, I fully expect RR (and DM for that matter) to be back next year.

[patrickgpe]

I have seen a lot of calls for the firing of RR. I don't get it. Do brewer fans think that he is doing anything different than what he did in the beginning of the season, warranting his termination? I don't think Narron would do anything different. Nobody on this team is playing at their level of ability.

 

I do think that if they miss the playoffs, it would be hard to have RR return but to make a change with a month to go just for the sake of making a change seems pointless.

[FVBrewerFan]

Nobody on this team is playing at their level of ability.

 

If that's true, you don't think that has anything to do with the Manager and his staff? That's a pretty telling statement you just made in defense of RR, which to me is more of a red flag that something's wrong...

[adambr2]

Just noticed that other than the Rangers (who quit months ago), no team in baseball has lost more than two in a row...we're going on seven and getting blown out in most of them. Just embarrassing.

 

 

 

The Pirates lost 7 in a row in early or mid August I believe and the Pirates again just lost 3 straight to the Cardinals. So your first statement is false.

 

 

Roenicke has about a .001% chance of being fired even if the team loses every game this month.

 

I'm sure he meant at the time, not this entire season.

 

If the Brewers lost every game in September I think you could pretty much bank on Roenicke being fired. They would finish at 73-89, 16 games under .500 after being as high as I believe 19 games over. It would be one of the biggest collapses in MLB history, and without looking it up, probably the longest losing streak in MLB history. This after having the losingest month in franchise history last year.

 

If you don't think that would get him fired, I don't know what to tell you. It certainly wouldn't be a ".001%" chance.

[logan82]

Nobody on this team is playing at their level of ability.

That is questionable. Maybe they were just paying over their heads in the first half. We have a lot of players without a long enough history to say with a lot of certainty that they are playing below their ability. Gomez, Lucroy, Gennett, Davis, and Segura are all mostly unknown as to what we should expect.

[monty57]

Nobody on this team is playing at their level of ability.

 

That is questionable. Maybe they were just paying over their heads in the first half. We have a lot of players without a long enough history to say with a lot of certainty that they are playing below their ability. Gomez, Lucroy, Gennett, Davis, and Segura are all mostly unknown as to what we should expect.

 

Yeah, there are 22 "qualified" players in the National League with an OPS over .800, and four of them are Brewers (Lucroy .836, Gomez .827, Braun .807 and Ramirez .803). Davis is 28th with a .791 OPS and Gennett doesn't qualify because of the platoon (must need 400 ABs), but has a .785 OPS. Offense is down across the league, but most of our guys have hit fairly well. Our big black holes are Segura with a .588 OPS and the first base fiasco.

 

I don't think anyone can have a problem with the results from Lucroy or Gomez. Ramirez is aging, and over a full season I don't think we should expect an .850-.900 OPS anymore. I'm happy he hit as well as he has. Davis (mid-.200's BA, 20-25 HR power) and Gennett (high avg, few walks, little power) are pretty much exactly what should have been expected. Braun is way down from his norm, but he's been hurt all season and there is the possibility PED's helped his earlier performance.

 

On the mound, we were expected to have a rotation of guys who were good-but-not-great. Four of the original starting five have ERAs of 3.43, 3.68, 3.82, 3.87, and the fifth was replaced with our top prospect when he failed to perform. The problem here is that as I mentioned earlier, offense is down across the league, so that means pitching is "up." Gallardo's 3.43 ERA (the best of our bunch) sets him in 40th place in the National League.

 

Logan hit it on the head. We had some guys playing over their heads early and they've come back to earth. At the start of the season, our pitchers were all looking like Cy Young candidates and most everyone was hitting very well (Reynolds, Davis, and Gennett were over .800 OPS, and Gomez was over .900). Unfortunately, when everyone "clicks" at the same time, it can mean they'll all hit their cold streaks at the same time, which is what has happened a couple times this year, including right now.

 

I've been vocal about some things I think are wrong with how the team has been built, but once the season starts, the pieces are in place. I don't see how we should expect a lot more out of the pieces we have, and those pieces still have us sitting in a Wild Card spot. Losing streaks stink, but they happen. It'll end, and even if it ends too late and the Brewers miss the playoffs, they still will have played at or above the level most people (including myself) expected to start the season. The only thing that changed was fan expectation after a ridiculously hot start.

[RightFieldCoder]

Yost was fired because nearly every game (even wins) had a "Has Ned ever seen a baseball game before?" move. RRR was making these mistakes in 2011. Most of his moves this year have been reasonable moves given his resources.

 

Melvin might be in trouble for not doing anything to take advantage of the great start we had.