Taylor Jungmann

[ewitkows]

Could he be turning the corner? Last 5 starts since the all star break 5G 3W 0L 29SO 13BB 2.25 era and a 1.11 whip and a .188 bavg

 

Would love to see him up in Sept for a couple of starts to see what he can do and then go the Nelson route with him next year. Let him repeat AAA and be the first guy up.

[Mass Haas]

Would love to see him up in Sept for a couple of starts to see what he can do

 

Guessing there will be some playoff-positioning critical games in September this year .

 

In other words, ain't gonna happen, sorry.

 

But your other point is well taken, fine progress year for Jungmann.

[DHonks]

If he has to be added to the 40-man roster this off-season, then there's a chance. Even if he only gets in a few games it makes sense. It would also show what the Crew thinks about him.

[guylanderfridancies]

 

Would love to see him up in Sept for a couple of starts to see what he can do and then go the Nelson route with him next year. Let him repeat AAA and be the first guy up.

 

Maybe if we weren't in a pennant race I'd say do it. But 105 pitches in 6 innings, only 55 for strikes, last outing for Tjung. Lack of control won't hold up as well in the majors. He's still got to prove he can throw strikes consistently in my book. If he could just walk 1 out of every 16+ batters instead of 1 out of 10 things would look a lot nicer.

[fondybrewfan]

The only way I seem him pitching is in the last 2 or 3 days of the year and RR wants to lineup his rotation for the playoffs. That might require shuffling some starts around and finding a fill in for a game or two. Probably pretty unlikely he even gets the call up though.

[FVBrewerFan]

They will have 6 guys in the rotation already, no room for Jungmann this year. I think he takes the Nelson route, let him start in AAA again next year and eventually he will get his shot.

[SRB]

Is Jungmann reinventing himself as a pitcher somehow? Weird that he is suddenly striking people out this year (8.3 K/9) when even at the time he was drafted he wasn't perceived as a strikeout pitcher during his dominant college career. First two seasons in the minors his K/9 was mediocre as expected.

[ewitkows]

Now 4-1 with a 1.98 era since the all star break. His 1 loss he went 7 and gave up 2 runs.

[HiAndTight]

Is Jungmann reinventing himself as a pitcher somehow? Weird that he is suddenly striking people out this year (8.3 K/9) when even at the time he was drafted he wasn't perceived as a strikeout pitcher during his dominant college career. First two seasons in the minors his K/9 was mediocre as expected.

 

 

Jungman was a pretty big strikeout pitcher at Texas. I believe he struck out more than one per inning all 3 years. He also had that big 96-97 MPH fastball that apparently is closer to 90-92 now.

[brewmann04]

what i like is the GB ratio so far what needed in Miller park

[colbyjack]

I talked to Bruce Seid specifically about Jungmann and Jed Bradley last fall, two picks he gets unfairly criticized a lot for, in large part due to Doug Melvin telling media outlets that both could be fast-tracked and even called up later in the same year they were drafted.

 

With Jungmann he told me that they had him working on his changeup almost exclusively last year, to the point where he would throw it in just about any count just to continue to find comfort with it. In college he worked almost exclusively between his low-90s fastball and mid-70s curve, which is good, not great stuff, which makes the development of a 3rd pitch all the more crucial.

 

I agree his development has been promising. I'd argue the same point for Bradley, even if it's taken longer than most of us would prefer.

[brewmann04]

nice info colby

[LouisEly]

Tyson Ross took a few years to develop. He didn't strike out a lot of guys early on in his career (minor league K/9 of 7.8), and on the surface profiled as a "back-of-the-rotation innings-eater". Wasn't until his 5th full pro season that he started putting up great numbers. Often in the minors guys look worse than they really are because they are working on a 3rd/4th pitch, which usually results in more walks and hits. The question is whether they develop that pitch, as it can take 3-5 years or more.

[TheCrew07]

I'm not sure how you can say the criticism of that draft pick was unfair when Taylor has turned out to be exactly what those of us who criticized the pick said he would be?

 

He was and continues to be solid yet unspectacular in any way. The criticism didn't stem from Melvin's silly comments, nor was Melvin the only one who mentioned Jungmann was a fast track pick as it was a fairly common assessment of the selection, the criticism came from the fact that Jungmann never profiled like the young top of the rotation arm the organization so desperately needs. He was the very definition of a workhorse pitcher, a high floor but lower ceiling pick and while I have no doubt he'll be a MLB pitcher I would have preferred the upside of the HS kids that were taken after him.

 

I'm extremely encouraged by his uptick in SOs this season, he has good value as a player and prospect, but he just wasn't the type of player that I've been harping about for years on draft day. Last year he was looking to be in that #4/#5 range as a pitcher, now I'm hoping he can continue to progress and be a #3. I'm not opposed to drafting a Jungmann type pitcher, I just didn't want to target that kind of player in the first round, let alone 2 of them in the first round of the same draft. I don't see how Jungmann or Bradley are better pitching prospects than Tyler Wagner or Taylor Williams who I view similarly from an upside standpoint but were taken much later?

 

I wasn't thrilled with this year's #1 either and it's not that the player selected is a low ceiling prospect, it's just that I have very finite criteria when it comes to Brewer first round selections which I explained in depth in those threads on the draft forum earlier this year. I want FB velocity, stuff, and a reasonable ability to locate in the first round, if a pitcher doesn't have that I'm moving on. I'm very wary of low arm slot guys because there just aren't many of them who can locate their pitches well in a MLB sense.

 

It seems that people have taken my comments about Jungmann over the years like I have some silly personal dislike of him which was never the case. I think the general perception of Jungmann as a pitcher was vastly overstated, especially early in his professional career, and I was simply willing to reiterate on numerous occasions the type of pitcher that I think Taylor actually is. I'm not big on sugar coating, I give my honest opinion as straightforward as I can. He simply didn't have any "wow" factor when I watched him pitch, there was no pitch that made me take notice, not like a Peralta slider or even a Scarpetta curve when they were in WI, and this was a young man pitching in college without a plus pitch. If a player in college or the minors doesn't stand out relative to his peers when you're watching then there's very little chance of him being an impact talent, especially a pitcher as "seasoned" as Jungmann was coming out of college.

[colbyjack]

Wow TheCrew07, I wasn't talking about you, I was speaking in generalities. It seems as though I struck a nerve. No need to take my comments personally.

[colbyjack]

To get this conversation back on track, LouisEly, Tyson Ross is an excellent example for what we can hope Jungmann develops into.

[DHonks]

This reminds me of how there was one poster that kept ridiculing Braun and his elbow in his swing, saying he'd never hit for power.

 

Another question. When Ben Sheets got to the big leagues he was not a strikeout pitcher. He was a 2-pitch guy with a 91 mph sinker and a big power curve. In the high minors and MLB he didn't strike many out. Then in 2004 (year 3) he went to a 4-seamer and instantly saw his velocity jump to the 96-98 mph range. Suddenly Ben's heater had a 14 mph difference from his curve instead of a 7 mph difference. Additionally, he discovered his new secret weapon (what many never noticed)--the high cheese. Fans will forever his curve, but the high cheese racked up a large percentage of those strikeouts once he went to a 4-seamer.

 

Why did this change? We just sort of assumed Ben was taught to pitch-to-contact and get grounders in the low minors. When he switched the 4-seamer, he became a much better pitcher. Is it possible that Jungmann is taking a similar path? Does he throw a 2-seamer but still have a 96mph 4-seamer in his back pocket?

[LouisEly]

Which HS kids are you referring to? Beede didn't sign and has concerns about his control. Guerrieri just recently began pitching again after TJ surgery, and he wasn't missing a lot of bats before he got hurt (6.9 K/9 in low-A) - he's gotten by on good control and not giving up hits but how will that translate if he recovers and gets to AA and starts facing the much higher quality of hitters like Jungmann has been facing? Ross hasn't been anything spectacular - he's not missing a lot of bats either (7.2 K/9 for his minor league career). Stephenson lost his control once he got to AA - 84 BB in 146 IP. Are you referring to hitters such as Nimmo and Swihart? Those two had good years in AA this year, I might give you those, but the other HS draftees aren't wowing anyone yet either.

 

Jungmann has been facing much tougher hitters than the HS kids have so far. Let's see how good those HS pitchers look at AA. Hasn't worked out well for Stephenson so far.

[colbyjack]

Just to clarify, because DHonks brought it up as did HiAndTight, the reports of Jungmann "throwing" 96-97 in college are grossly exaggerated. There was a point in his career that he peaked there, but the times I saw him he was 89-93, and even then he's usually settle into the 88-91 range later in the game. His curveball, the break, velo and command was always a plus pitch. Not one of the best in the game, but good. I always liked him, and can understand why someone would argue why a team would take him as early as the Brewers did, but he had one heck of a college career, which can't be understated.

 

There were similar reports with Jed Bradley. I saw him throw a few times during the summer before he was drafted in the Cape Cod League. He was simply brilliant. Very good command, changed speeds with perfection, and topped out around 94 consistently. Again, there were reports of him touching a few ticks higher, but that wasn't his range. I've heard since being drafted he works more in the 88-92 range, and also know that injuries have slowed his progress, but he too is working hard to get back on track, which is very encouraging to see.

[Outlander]

I for one appreciate the positives and negatives that various posters have a on players as it helps me form an opinion on potential future Brewers. Thanks to everybody that provides insight on these players and how the Brewers approach their development.

[brewmann04]

I think Jungman continues to progress and become a Groundball pitcher for us. A good point most of us look into pitches stats without Knowing what the staff might be working on with a specfic pitcher like Colby pointed out. I think one more yera at 3a and if he Continues we see him in the majors. Hopefully Bradley can also take the steps and join him next year@ Nashville opps Fresno .

[TheCrew07]

Wow TheCrew07, I wasn't talking about you, I was speaking in generalities. It seems as though I struck a nerve. No need to take my comments personally.

 

No I didn't it take it personally at all, I think criticism of the pick was justified at the time and remains as such and spun my personal experience into to try and appropriately frame my comments.

 

I watched Jungmann pitch 3 times prior to his Brewer career which was an extremely small sample but in those 3 games he never threw a 4 seam FB above 94, his 2 seamer which he didn't locate well was 88-92, and he featured the curve that you feel was plus and I felt was fringe average as it wasn't a swing and miss pitch at all. I know we've discussed this in the past and you agree that I've been very consistent in my assessment Taylor from the start so it's not worth really debating a subjective rating of his curve. He's just not the type of pitcher I'm looking for in the 1st round but I'm risk taker, I think it's necessary, and I can understand where other people would want more of a sure thing.

 

As to the rest of the comments:

 

People can post what they want and choose to believe scouting reports, and while I'm as big on scouting reports as anyone, I don't like to use any single scouting report as my bible, I trust what I see, and that's what I saw. That's why I have access to my own Stalker gun, so I can go to games and get unfiltered information on my own, and that's also why I'm so big on video.

 

The only prospect evaluator that thought Jungmann had plus stuff was Mayo from MLB.com and as I've said numerous times MLB.com and to a certain extent PG are coming at prospects from an entirely different perspective than I am. Both of those sites have a vested interest in selling any particular prospect's best attributes but for different reasons while I'm interested in the overall big picture for a player, I care about the minuses as much as the pluses.

 

I don't hold Mayo in much regard as a prospect evaluator at all, over the years I've come to view him as a smoke blower. Similarly I'm not huge on Bernie Pleskoff from MLBPipeline, I've never written such glowing reviews of any player I've coached as he does for prospects he has no attachment to. My point is here is that the source is as an important to me as the information... I read it all, I'll even link it all, but I'm more interested in forming a consensus opinion and in my personal observations of players than using any player's most glowing scouting report as an accurate representation or baseline of who they are.

 

Taylor Jungmann never profiled as a top of the rotation pitcher and still doesn't... I'm not going to use outliers as proof of anything, as in this 5' 9" position player became a HOF player or this pitcher took years to master his stuff so there's always chance. Of course there's always a chance, but what's actually realistic? Especially in this age of specialization? That's why I like 3 sport guys who flash the 3 things I'm looking for, because they likely have room to grow. A pitcher whom specializes, still doesn't have stuff, clean mechanics, and doesn't show any ascension as a pitcher coming out of college doesn't excite me at all. Look at Taylor's college career, he was the same guy all 3 years. I'm interested in both where a player came from and where they are going which is why I was so big on Aiken over the winter and then latched onto Freeland, Holmes, and Newcomb as the spring progressed.

 

I've literally addressed the Jungmann topic dozens of times as well as my thoughts on the draft, a simple search will reveal all of those posts across the various forums here. I'm not going to rehash all of that again nor do I have any desire to get into another lengthy circular debate on subjective opinions so I'm going to respectfully step away from the conversation at this time.

[Eye Black]

I haven't noticed this posted yet, but the video that accompanied this Adam McCalvy's article, Inexperienced Jungmann leads Brewers' rotation depth has some interesting tidbits. Jungmann talks about some adjustments he has made recently such as switching from the left side of the rubber to the 3rd base side. He also talks about remaking his curveball when he became a professional, and said that for his first two years of pro ball he basically relied solely on his fastball. With a strong spring it seems likely Jungmann will be next in-line when an inevitable injury occurs among the starting rotation.

[reillymcshane]

What I liked about Jungmann was that after a poor 2013, he rebounded well, pitching nicely at AA. Then, after being promoted, he struggled at AAA for a bit, but finished strongly. He avoided HRs, improved his K rate, lowered his walk rate - all nice signs.

 

I don't expect Taylor to be an all star, but I think he can fill the back of the rotation competently - and at a reasonable price. I like him at AAA this year, let him pick up where he left off. Then bring him up when needed. We'll likely need him for sure in 2016 with Lohse a free agent.

[TooLiveBrew]

What I liked about Jungmann was that after a poor 2013, he rebounded well, pitching nicely at AA. Then, after being promoted, he struggled at AAA for a bit, but finished strongly. He avoided HRs, improved his K rate, lowered his walk rate - all nice signs.

 

I don't expect Taylor to be an all star, but I think he can fill the back of the rotation competently - and at a reasonable price. I like him at AAA this year, let him pick up where he left off. Then bring him up when needed. We'll likely need him for sure in 2016 with Lohse a free agent.

I always love to see this type of statistical progression, too. Nelson moved up the chain in a similar manner. What it says, to me, is that the player is capable of persevering through struggles by adapting his approach. Love that.