Brandon Kintzler - Should he be sent down?

[monty57]

I don't know if this is relevant here, but this from the Brewers' site:

 

MILWAUKEE -- The Brewers and Pirates made a Minor League trade Thursday that sent right-hander Jay Jackson to Milwaukee's Triple-A team for cash considerations.

 

Jackson, who cracked Baseball America's top 100 prospects list prior to the 2010 season, was 5-4 with a 4.89 ERA in 25 games (12 starts) at Triple-A Indianapolis this year, with 87 strikeouts in 84 2/3 innings. The 26-year-old will now pitch for a Nashville Sounds team that has been losing arms lately to the big league club.

 

Jackson originally was a ninth-round Draft pick of the Cubs in 2008.

[wildcat83]

"I never know where I'm going to throw, but it's to the point that's what I deserve," Kintzler said, "because apparently a three-something ERA isn't [good enough]."

 

At least on that point, he and I agree.

 

If his ERA were a run lower - like it was last year - and he still couldn't get a shot in close and late ballgames, then I think he would have a right to be upset. By all appearances though, he feels as though having a consistent role (in hold situations, presumably in the 8th inning) was the reason for his outstanding performance last year; it is pitching well that put him into the consistent role he seems to be looking for.

 

I don't really mind it when guys have a chip on their shoulder, when they can use it for motivation. Kintzler just seems to be venting his frustration that he's not pitching as well as he's capable.

 

 

I think it's the word "apparently" in that quote that makes it seem snarky. Like he feels a three something ERA is great. It was just talked about in an IGT that it seems like every team has 3 guys with sub 3 ERA. In today's game a 3 something out of the pen really isn't set up stuff.

 

As for Estrada I think he has more value to this team as a long reliever than in any other spot.

[danzig6767]

This just in. Yuni still believes he should be starting at 1B for the Brewers.

 

Any thoughts on my comment about trying Estrada in the 8th inning role?

 

Estrada is broken this year, he should be the long man not the 8th inning guy. He (used) to be a competent starter, but I don't think he has the overpowering stuff to fill that role very well. It should be Jeffress and Duke, imo.

I agree on those two for now, but i really question how long Jeffress can get by throwing almost entirely just fastballs, especially given he doesn't get a lot of swing and misses on them. Unless he can get more consistent with his slider, i fear that it's only a matter of time before he starts getting hit hard.

 

Look at what happened to Axford once he lost command of his curveball, hitters just sat on his fastball and started hitting it hard.

 

As for Estrada, obviously his proclivity for serving up home runs makes using him late in close games very dangerous. A leadoff batter hits a single with the Brewers up only a run and it's nail chewing time fearing Marco will give up a two run jack.

[TheCrew07]

The injuries to both Thornburg & Henderson have been such killers and exasperated by not having any quality power righthanded arms in the minors for relief work.

 

That statement is only half true... Our legitimate power armed relief prospects like Goforth are stuck repeating AA because the Brewers loaded up the AAA team with a bunch 28+ year old "veteran" relievers.

 

This was the AAA bullpen to start the season:

 

[pre]Rk Name Age W L W-L% ERA G GS GF CG SHO SV IP H R ER HR BB IBB SO HBP BK WP BF WHIP H9 HR9 BB9 SO9 SO/W

3 Brent Leach* 31 4 2 .667 3.44 49 1 12 0 0 0 49.2 43 22 19 6 20 0 50 3 1 4 201 1.268 7.8 1.1 3.6 9.1 2.50

5 Alfredo Figaro 29 4 2 .667 3.88 34 2 11 0 0 2 58.0 68 27 25 4 21 1 43 0 1 0 255 1.534 10.6 0.6 3.3 6.7 2.05

6 Johnnie Lowe 29 1 4 .200 5.55 18 5 5 0 0 0 35.2 40 24 22 6 15 0 35 1 0 0 161 1.542 10.1 1.5 3.8 8.8 2.33

8 Dustin Molleken 29 3 2 .600 4.78 44 0 11 0 0 3 58.1 57 35 31 4 28 2 67 4 0 4 259 1.457 8.8 0.6 4.3 10.3 2.39

9 Jose De La Torre 28 2 2 .500 2.60 13 0 3 0 0 0 17.1 12 6 5 1 11 2 21 0 0 3 74 1.327 6.2 0.5 5.7 10.9 1.91

10 Donovan Hand 28 1 7 .125 5.40 43 4 28 0 0 13 60.0 77 39 36 4 14 2 51 3 0 1 274 1.517 11.6 0.6 2.1 7.6 3.64

11 Rob Wooten 28 0 1 .000 5.25 12 0 11 0 0 9 12.0 12 9 7 0 4 1 13 0 0 0 54 1.333 9.0 0.0 3.0 9.8 3.25

14 Kyle Heckathorn 26 3 2 .600 5.48 26 4 5 0 0 0 44.1 48 28 27 6 19 1 30 2 1 2 199 1.511 9.7 1.2 3.9 6.1 1.58

17 Michael Blazek 25 2 4 .333 3.84 32 12 8 0 0 1 75.0 80 36 32 6 30 0 67 2 0 5 330 1.467 9.6 0.7 3.6 8.0 2.23[/pre]

 

There are really only 3 guys on that list I wanted to keep around, I griped about it for the first month or so of the season and then let it go. Players like Jeffress and Leon were added as the year went on but that was the bullpen to start the year.

 

Here's the relief situation in AA:

[pre]Rk Name Age W L W-L% ERA G GS GF CG SHO SV IP H R ER HR BB IBB SO HBP BK WP BF WHIP H9 HR9 BB9 SO9 SO/W

1 David Goforth 25 4 3 .571 3.05 45 0 37 0 0 23 56.0 47 20 19 2 24 1 38 2 0 3 238 1.268 7.6 0.3 3.9 6.1 1.58

2 Tim Dillard 30 5 1 .833 2.56 37 0 13 0 0 1 52.2 33 18 15 3 14 0 44 7 0 1 209 0.892 5.6 0.5 2.4 7.5 3.14

3 Tommy Toledo 25 4 2 .667 5.04 31 0 13 0 0 0 44.2 51 26 25 7 13 1 45 2 0 2 198 1.433 10.3 1.4 2.6 9.1 3.46

4 Kevin Shackelford 25 1 3 .250 5.59 30 0 11 0 0 1 38.2 51 29 24 3 13 0 16 2 0 4 179 1.655 11.9 0.7 3.0 3.7 1.23

5 Casey Medlen 24 4 0 1.000 2.82 29 0 6 0 0 1 38.1 31 13 12 4 21 0 38 3 0 2 167 1.357 7.3 0.9 4.9 8.9 1.81

6 Eric Marzec 26 1 3 .250 3.47 27 5 11 0 0 0 59.2 62 30 23 6 26 1 44 0 0 3 265 1.475 9.4 0.9 3.9 6.6 1.69

16 Jose De La Torre 28 1 0 1.000 1.93 9 0 3 0 0 2 14.0 8 3 3 2 6 0 16 1 0 0 56 1.000 5.1 1.3 3.9 10.3 2.67

18 Manny Barreda 25 0 1 .000 1.46 8 0 4 0 0 0 12.1 7 3 2 1 9 0 13 1 0 3 54 1.297 5.1 0.7 6.6 9.5 1.44[/pre]

 

We have 2-3 interesting relievers at every level but the problem is with the veteran backlog at AAA there's no upward mobility for any of the young guys behind them. The Brewers have been + players at every level so some of the relievers have been put on the DL at various times to stay at the minimum roster requirements, basically a taxi squad situation.

 

edit. I should add that's just the "relievers" for each club, there are also starting pitchers like Pena and Magnifico (though he's at BC) whom I believe are relievers as well.

[Bombers]

Good post TheCrew. Dillard and Goforth are both guys that should be in AAA next year. I know Dillard is older but, he has had some success. Casey Medlen has some nice numbers too. Same to De La Torre / Barreda, albeit in a small sample.

[danzig6767]

The injuries to both Thornburg & Henderson have been such killers and exasperated by not having any quality power righthanded arms in the minors for relief work.

That statement is only half true... Our legitimate power armed relief prospects like Goforth are stuck repeating AA because the Brewers loaded up the AAA team with a bunch 28+ year old "veteran" relievers.

I admit that i was focusing on the AAA level, but do you think Goforth could come up to the big league roster and be effective? His stats on the AA level are ok, but don't exactly jump off the screen either. I get that you could say the same for a guy like Wooten who keeps getting chances, but Goforth has a pretty high walk rate and mediocre K rate for that level.

[brewcrewdue80]

Yeah his 3ERA is really deserving of the 8th inning role, after I just demonstrated how he was saved 9 Baserunners out of 10 when removed from the mound because HE wasn't getting the job done and others had to do it for him.....Just like the 8 runners allowed to score out of 21 he inherited...That's so worthy of the 8th inning job....

 

Bring back Figaro in replace of Kintzler. I know his numbers don't look the best in AAA but he's also been used as a SP/long relief game finisher. That's what Milwaukee needs honestly. A guy who can come in to the 8th and is more than capable to pitch the 9th. Figaro had a few of those 8+9th inning finishes last season. I think I did the math awhile back on Figaro RP stats vs his Spot start stats last season, and I believe he was under 3ERA as a RP. It's just amazing this team even keeps Kintzler on their Roster much less give him the 8th inning.

[HiAndTight]

Good post TheCrew. Dillard and Goforth are both guys that should be in AAA next year. I know Dillard is older but, he has had some success. Casey Medlen has some nice numbers too. Same to De La Torre / Barreda, albeit in a small sample.

 

 

I don't see one guy on that AA list that is a young prospect that has been "blocked," by going with some veterans on the AAA roster.

 

Every year, every team has a AAA team that is more experienced and if a player in AA is really good enough, he'll get a shot as there is so much turnover.

 

Going with too many veterans in Nashville has hardly been the problem( especially when you use the example of Tim Dillard as one of those in AA worthy of a promotion....not like we haven't seen that show before).

 

 

The fact of the matter with Kintzler is that we desperately need him actually keep some of this momentum going and keep throwing the ball well. He had been throwing the ball REALLY well in July, and then another poor outing. Just when it looks like he's starting to get that 94 MPH sinker that dives down and gets swings and misses or induces ground balls and he throws that slider well, he comes up with a ugly inning where he starts leaving the ball up and giving up base hits.

[HiAndTight]

Bring back Figaro in replace of Kintzler. I know his numbers don't look the best in AAA but he's also been used as a SP/long relief game finisher. That's what Milwaukee needs honestly. A guy who can come in to the 8th and is more than capable to pitch the 9th. Figaro had a few of those 8+9th inning finishes last season. I think I did the math awhile back on Figaro RP stats vs his Spot start stats last season, and I believe he was under 3ERA as a RP. It's just amazing this team even keeps Kintzler on their Roster much less give him the 8th inning.

 

 

How is that what we need as opposed to a good right handed pitcher who can some in and provide some stability late in games? And the way you're talking about using him...what makes him a better option to be used in this way than Jeffress?

 

Finally, it amazes you that the Brewers even keep Kintzler on their team.....but you're advocating for a player who has worse numbers in AAA than Kintzler and then saying, "last year he had an ERA under 3 as a reliever." Well...it still was worse than Kintzler.

 

We've seen Figaro. He's not that good. We've seen Kintzler at least be good before. If I'm betting on one of the two guys who are roughly the same age, I'll bet on the guy who was very-very good for us last year as opposed to the guy who's never really been very good for anyone before(And are roughly the same age).

[TheCrew07]

The injuries to both Thornburg & Henderson have been such killers and exasperated by not having any quality power righthanded arms in the minors for relief work.

That statement is only half true... Our legitimate power armed relief prospects like Goforth are stuck repeating AA because the Brewers loaded up the AAA team with a bunch 28+ year old "veteran" relievers.

I admit that i was focusing on the AAA level, but do you think Goforth could come up to the big league roster and be effective? His stats on the AA level are ok, but don't exactly jump off the screen either. I get that you could say the same for a guy like Wooten who keeps getting chances, but Goforth has a pretty high walk rate and mediocre K rate for that level.

 

I'm not sure his season goes the same way if there's a chance of a promotion, he would have had a legit shot at helping the Brewers next year regardless, I'm not saying grab him from AA, I'm saying those players knew from day 1 just like we did that all of the veterans were moving up first. When they resigned Dillard and assigned him to AA that was basically the final blow promotion wise. For example Toledo had to start a 3rd season at BC because of all the veteran depth that was assigned to AAA and AA to start the season. Now that I look I glossed over the AA veteran depth at the start of the season in my other post, but the system was definitely backloaded on veteran arms at the top of the system.

 

Speaking of Toledo, if he figures out how to not be Estrada 2.0 I like him for a bullpen option down the road as well. I wouldn't have guessed he'd serve up so many gopher balls, AA has been quite the step up for him.

[brewcrewdue80]

Bring back Figaro in replace of Kintzler. I know his numbers don't look the best in AAA but he's also been used as a SP/long relief game finisher. That's what Milwaukee needs honestly. A guy who can come in to the 8th and is more than capable to pitch the 9th. Figaro had a few of those 8+9th inning finishes last season. I think I did the math awhile back on Figaro RP stats vs his Spot start stats last season, and I believe he was under 3ERA as a RP. It's just amazing this team even keeps Kintzler on their Roster much less give him the 8th inning.

 

 

How is that what we need as opposed to a good right handed pitcher who can some in and provide some stability late in games? And the way you're talking about using him...what makes him a better option to be used in this way than Jeffress?

 

Finally, it amazes you that the Brewers even keep Kintzler on their team.....but you're advocating for a player who has worse numbers in AAA than Kintzler and then saying, "last year he had an ERA under 3 as a reliever." Well...it still was worse than Kintzler.

 

We've seen Figaro. He's not that good. We've seen Kintzler at least be good before. If I'm betting on one of the two guys who are roughly the same age, I'll bet on the guy who was very-very good for us last year as opposed to the guy who's never really been very good for anyone before(And are roughly the same age).

 

Yeah I think we need a RH RP who will mop up 2IP to complete a game in the 8th/9th innings. Vs. Kintzler going .2 an ip abusing another arm in the BP(Smith/Duke) who faces the one batter and then are removed.

 

Figaro is better as a RP, his numbers last season are bloated due to his Starts. Figaro isn't a SP. He also had bloated numbers coming in to low leverage games that were out of hand last season. He didn't need to be spot on, just efficient to get 6-12 outs whatever was being asked out of him.

All I recall watching Figaro was his "Stuff" looked much better imo than Kintzler's ever did.

 

So far for Jeffress, he's done well, has awesome velocity. But he's not a Inning + RP over his career. So he can come in the 8th inning but won't be there for the 9th inning.

Lose Kintzler use Figaro. Jeffress/Smith can be of use in the 8th innings when ahead. Figaro can be used in Tie/behind games in the 8th inning.

This way we don't burn KRod in the 9th inning in a tie game only for it to remain tied and lose in the 10th/11th innings.

[SoupTown]

If I am RRR what I do is simple. I say... mate... I say... mate. I hear you are itching to be the high leverage 7th and 8th inning guy. Cool. You have it. We are in a desperate race. Your last outing you gave up 3 runs, in a tie game, and you screwed it up. You have one more chance. Your career is on your bravado. Good luck. We need you. But if you blow one more game, we don't need you. And say hello to AAA. Your choice. Good luck.

[markedman5]

His FIP is 4.7 and the league is hitting over .300 against him....OPS against is .833(last year it was .567)

 

His strike outs are way down too.......

[HiAndTight]

 

Yeah I think we need a RH RP who will mop up 2IP to complete a game in the 8th/9th innings.

 

That's more important right now? Someone "moping up," the final two innings? I don't agree. We need someone who can come in and along with our lefties and bridge the gap from the starters to K-Rod. Estrada can finish up the final two innings.

 

Vs. Kintzler going .2 an ip abusing another arm in the BP(Smith/Duke) who faces the one batter and then are removed.

 

And again, what is there to suggest that Figaro would do a better job than Kintzler at this?

 

Again, Kintlzer has been a better MAJOR LEAGUE pitcher this year than Figaro has been a MINOR league pitcher. So I fail to see how he's a significant upgrade.

 

Figaro is better as a RP, his numbers last season are bloated due to his Starts. Figaro isn't a SP. He also had bloated numbers coming in to low leverage games that were out of hand last season. He didn't need to be spot on, just efficient to get 6-12 outs whatever was being asked out of him.

 

I'm hearing a lot of excuses. Bottom line, like I said, Kintzler had a better ERA last year as a reliever than Figaro had last year as a reliever. And Kintzler did it as our primary set up man.

All I recall watching Figaro was his "Stuff" looked much better imo than Kintzler's ever did.

 

Well, that's a matter of opinion. The results however are not. The actual performance is not subjective.

 

So far for Jeffress, he's done well, has awesome velocity. But he's not a Inning + RP over his career. So he can come in the 8th inning but won't be there for the 9th inning.

 

Sure he can. Again, I see absolutely no reason why this is a pre-requistite, but fine, lets say it is. Jeffress was pitching 3 innings at a time in Nashville and spent much of his career as a starter. So he could most certainly go more than one inning to "mop up," the 8th and 9th inning. Again, I don't really care about who's mopping up because at that point the game is usually over.

 

Lose Kintzler use Figaro. Jeffress/Smith can be of use in the 8th innings when ahead. Figaro can be used in Tie/behind games in the 8th inning.

This way we don't burn KRod in the 9th inning in a tie game only for it to remain tied and lose in the 10th/11th innings.

 

How managers use their closers is almost the same for every single team. Literally. Fangraphs had an interesting article on it.

 

But again, I'm really curious why you would want a pitcher who's proven at pretty much every level he's inferior to Kintzler to come in and pitch and even more so,why you're so concerned about who pitches in games we're losing late?

 

 

Kintzler is better than Figaro.

Our priority should getting Kintzler back to where he was last year because at least with Kintzler we KNOW he's capable of being a very good SU man. With Figaro we know he has a 4.00 ERA and a 1.5 WHIP in AAA. Kintzler has a 3.66 ERA and a whip of 1.37 for the big league club after posting a 2.66 ERA last year in 77 IP.

[HiAndTight]

I'm not sure his season goes the same way if there's a chance of a promotion, he would have had a legit shot at helping the Brewers next year regardless, I'm not saying grab him from AA, I'm saying those players knew from day 1 just like we did that all of the veterans were moving up first.

 

I don't think this is making a real strong argument. Basically he didn't pitch better because he was worried about the age of the guys on the AAA roster?

 

I think that's an enormous stretch.

 

When they resigned Dillard and assigned him to AA that was basically the final blow promotion wise.

 

How so?

For example Toledo had to start a 3rd season at BC because of all the veteran depth that was assigned to AAA and AA to start the season.

 

Except Toledo directly contradicts the point you're making,which was that there was no chance or little chance for promotion as he was promoted to AA very early and threw just 9 innings at BC and struggled at AA.

Now that I look I glossed over the AA veteran depth at the start of the season in my other post, but the system was definitely backloaded on veteran arms at the top of the system.

 

I know you were pretty upset about that at the start of the season. You seem to be using this topic, ie, "what relievers could help us," to argue this point again, but there really aren't any AA relievers who could help us this year even according to you.

[djoctagone]

Brandon Kintzler - Should he be sent down?

evidently, the brewers think so. they activated him from the disabled list and optioned him to colorado springs.

[djoctagone]

in case you'd forgotten, in a somewhat surprising move, kintzler was optioned to colorado springs in spring training. in april, he was outrighted (off the 40-man roster). in may, the brewers selected his contract (adding him back to the 40-man and 25-man roster). the club later tried to outright him again, but kintzler appealed that he was injured, and instead, the brewers placed him on the major league 15-day disabled list.

 

if the brewers didn't currently have three open spots on the 40-man, you'd think they'd designate kintzler for assignment yet again.