MLB should rethink the use of some PEDS -- [Latest: Tony Bosch (Biogenesis) surrenders to DEA; more MLB suspensions coming (see post #11)]

[swheeler23]

I guess if I'm going to "bodyguard" anyone I would rather it be a cheating millionaire than a lying billionaire.

 

In recent years baseball should be commended for what exactly? They roll out a so called world class, olympic quality testing program so that fans can say, "See! They're cleaning up the game!" Yet, players rarely fail the tests and in order to catch anyone cheating they needed to bust the supplier.

 

Baseball ignored steriod use for years. I remember as a little kid going to cardinal games watching Sosa and

Mc gwire hit homeruns. Before this baseball was dead. MLB didn't care until they were forced to change it. Now they test, yet rarely catch anyone. The testing still is not where it should be and teams should be allowed to get out of contracts if a player fails a drug test. Until they make more changes I can't afford to care because I have no proof anyone is clean.

[RightFieldCoder]

I'm no scientist but I believe it's similar to when Manny Ramirez got busted for using a female fertility drug. It doesn't mask the steroids so much as it's taken to counteract some of the negative side effects.

The type of testosterone that steroids give you is a form of testosterone that your body makes. But your body only makes a small amount of it compared to other forms of testosterone. The tests don't look for a count, they compare types of testosterone. So a guy like Manny might take steroids that increases one type and also takes a fertility drug that increases the other type. He can test all day and his ratio of testosterone types say he isn't doping.

[Boomer5]

It will never happen but it would just be glorious to have certain NY and BOS All Stars implicated. It would be like Braun times a million.

 

I heard as many as 90 additional players could be shown; if that's the case there is almost certain to be some really good players in there that could have a huge effect on numerous playoff races. Of course assuming details are released in a timely fashion and MLB drops the hammer on the players immediately.

 

Baseball set themselves up for this. The precedent was set with Braun that they will go hard after anyone involved with Biogenesis. 90 Players will be a massive problem for MLB losing star power and even if these are role players, it will still gut some rosters.

 

The timing of the hammer will be interesting.

[torts]

wow, 90 more players? thats... going to be interesting

[Point Beer Is Best]

Just curious - where are you hearing 90 players? Depending on the number of retirees and minor leaguers on that list, you're talking about a very substantial percentage of active major leaguers. Even if you assume that only half of them are current major leaguers, that's still an average of one or two players per team. The MLBPA might not have put up much of a fight against the '13 suspensions, but if MLB tries to suspend 5+% of it's current membership, I have to think that they will face a much stiffer battle this time around.

 

This may drag on for a while (especially since it's now a federal investigation) - and I'm wondering if Bud would rather ride off into the sunset and let his successor deal with this right off the bat (which may not be up to him if they don't end up with the evidence in a timely manner, or at all). Remember - MLB had to purchase stolen documents the last time around to nail the '13 crew after the Feds specifically told them that those documents were hot and it would be illegal.

[jerichoholicninja]

Unless the names include A-Rod or Braun, MLB and the media aren't really going to make a big deal out of this.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I love this

 

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/11321451/mlb-asks-feds-names-biogenesis-probe

 

MLB officials declined to comment Thursday but have previously expressed frustration that the DEA did not share relevant information about players over the course of their investigation. DEA officials, on the other hand, said they were concerned about the defendants and other distributors, not users, and did not want to share information that could jeopardize an ongoing investigation.

 

SO....... MLB now believes that the DEA somehow is required or obligated to give them information?

 

Does Bud know that in most investigations (ie: "the real world") that busting the dealer is what matters, not the users?

[Thurston Fluff]

MLB testing doesn't work. If they really wanted to stop the use they would give teams the power to end contracts after 1 positive test. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the games best players are doing something.

 

Somehow I think Ryan Braun disagrees with you. While it doesn't get all the cheaters out of the game it sure as heck put a dent in the number of users.

 

I care, but I guess I'm just "sanctimonious". I promised myself I would try to stay out of these conversations, but I can't help myself with posts like this. This whole thought that you must be "holier-than-thou" if you care about PED usage. No, I just don't care to see the game I grew up watching and loving turn into a cartoonish video game version of itself.

 

Well put. I would add that I don't want my favorite players to die early because they were trying to keep up. If we want freaks doing super human feats through the pharmacy I'll watch the California penal system league. For MLB I want natural players doing something because they are gifted and work hard.

[TooLiveBrew]

MLB testing doesn't work. If they really wanted to stop the use they would give teams the power to end contracts after 1 positive test. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the games best players are doing something.

 

Somehow I think Ryan Braun disagrees with you. While it doesn't get all the cheaters out of the game it sure as heck put a dent in the number of users.

Has it though? I don't think there's any evidence that it has. I mean, we have a rumored list of 90 more guys from the Biogenesis case alone. There's no way Biogenesis was the only place MLB players could get PEDs.

[swheeler23]

MLB testing doesn't work. If they really wanted to stop the use they would give teams the power to end contracts after 1 positive test. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the games best players are doing something.

 

Somehow I think Ryan Braun disagrees with you. While it doesn't get all the cheaters out of the game it sure as heck put a dent in the number of users.

Has it though? I don't think there's any evidence that it has. I mean, we have a rumored list of 90 more guys from the Biogenesis case alone. There's no way Biogenesis was the only place MLB players could get PEDs.

 

 

If Braun knew that he could lose his contract maybe he never does the PEDS in the first place

[sveumrules]

There were 14 players suspended as a result of the initial Biogenesis bust. That's the same number of players that failed a test for non-stimulant PEDs over the previous five years. That combined with the fact that Braun was the only Biogenesis guy with a previous fail tells me that the testing is not working.

[SRB]

MLB testing doesn't work. If they really wanted to stop the use they would give teams the power to end contracts after 1 positive test. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the games best players are doing something.

 

Somehow I think Ryan Braun disagrees with you. While it doesn't get all the cheaters out of the game it sure as heck put a dent in the number of users.

Has it though? I don't think there's any evidence that it has. I mean, we have a rumored list of 90 more guys from the Biogenesis case alone. There's no way Biogenesis was the only place MLB players could get PEDs.

 

 

If Braun knew that he could lose his contract maybe he never does the PEDS in the first place

 

Yes, costing Braun hundreds of millions of dollars and possibly ending his career for the heinous crime of violating an arbitrarily drawn list of "banned" substances and for offending the sensibilities of armchair tough guys like Buster Olney would be great for the sport.

 

Also, just wanted to pop in and note the irony that before every MLB.com highlight I watch there is a commercial of Carlos Beltran selling "five hour energy" stimulants.

[HiAndTight]

It'll never go through now, but most type of steriods when cycled properly are perfectly safe for fully developed adult males. They're not these transformational magic pills that many seem to think unless they're abused.

 

"Perfectly safe" is a big stretch for just about any drug. The can of Pandora's boxes you want to open just isn't worth it. First how would you be able to tell a person using it under relatively safe protocols vs one who is pushing things to get any sort of edge possible? Second since they do provide an advantage, if you allow them you essentially make them mandatory.

 

Banning them completely may not be the perfect solution, but it is the best and safest option there is right now.

 

 

No, it's not really a stretch. You're putting words into my mouth.

 

A-I didn't say I advocated it, I simply said that under doctor supervision they are perfectly save.

 

B-How would you tell what a player is using them for? Because they'd be under doctors supervision.

 

C-I never said I was in favor. So please don't say the "Pandora's box YOU want to open."

 

D-Making them acceptable in certain situations, the way they grant some waivers for some drugs would not make them "Mandatory,"

 

It's a complex debate and I simply relayed what those smarter than myself had said.

[HiAndTight]

Funny how some protect Braun while in yester years not letting ARod and Bonds types off the hook.....

 

Just call yourself a homer and get on with it.... don't try to justify cheating (MLBPA approved the rules and testing)

 

When Bonds played was there testing? Maybe at the end. MLB profited from the cheating for years. The only reason they went after these guys is to help the Yankees get out of Arods contract and suspend Braun because he got out of the felled test.

 

 

You HONESTLY believe Bud Selig who pushed for testing long before the players union agreed to it ONLY started to go after these guys to "save," the New York Yankees from having to pay Arod's contract? Which by the way....he did not accomplish.

 

There are conspiracies and then there are conspiracies. This is the first time I've heard this one.

[DuWayne Steurer]

It'll never go through now, but most type of steriods when cycled properly are perfectly safe for fully developed adult males. They're not these transformational magic pills that many seem to think unless they're abused.

 

"Perfectly safe" is a big stretch for just about any drug. The can of Pandora's boxes you want to open just isn't worth it. First how would you be able to tell a person using it under relatively safe protocols vs one who is pushing things to get any sort of edge possible? Second since they do provide an advantage, if you allow them you essentially make them mandatory.

 

Banning them completely may not be the perfect solution, but it is the best and safest option there is right now.

 

 

No, it's not really a stretch. You're putting words into my mouth.

 

A-I didn't say I advocated it, I simply said that under doctor supervision they are perfectly save.

 

B-How would you tell what a player is using them for? Because they'd be under doctors supervision.

 

C-I never said I was in favor. So please don't say the "Pandora's box YOU want to open."

 

D-Making them acceptable in certain situations, the way they grant some waivers for some drugs would not make them "Mandatory,"

 

It's a complex debate and I simply relayed what those smarter than myself had said.

 

 

Steroids, even when prescribed by a doctor, aren't "perfectly safe". I am prescribed steroid cycles 3 times a year for a medical condition, and each time, my doctor goes over the pros and cons and possible side effects, both short and long term that I could possibly experience.

 

When you say "perfectly safe" you make it sound like there's nothing that could go wrong, ever, if done properly, and that is not true.

[bigredrobbo]

I KNEW your posts were performance enhanced!

[Patrick425]

This report says that the DEA has uncovered 5 more players (not 90):

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/report--dea-discovers-five-players-with-ties-to-peds--mlb-wants-names-171716220.html

[Thurston Fluff]

MLB testing doesn't work. If they really wanted to stop the use they would give teams the power to end contracts after 1 positive test. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the games best players are doing something.

 

Somehow I think Ryan Braun disagrees with you. While it doesn't get all the cheaters out of the game it sure as heck put a dent in the number of users.

Has it though? I don't think there's any evidence that it has. I mean, we have a rumored list of 90 more guys from the Biogenesis case alone. There's no way Biogenesis was the only place MLB players could get PEDs.

 

Offense has been down and the number of pitchers with ERA's in the 2's and 3's are up. While that isn't necessarily a causal correlation I do think the timing of this decease in offense is at least noteworthy.

One thing to remember though is testing was never the only thing MLB did to stop PEDS. So to say MLB isn't doing enough by claiming testing doesn't prevent all cheating is off base (no pun intended.)

MLB set up an system to investigate cheating beyond just testing. Obviously that seems to be working. To me the testing is one of several prongs to limit the amount of cheating. While it doesn't eliminate it by itself I think, when used in combination with other mechanisms, it has helped reduce the amount of use and/or users.

[The stache]

It would really be something if Matt Kemp was one of those named.

 

 

 

Is it wrong that I think this would be AWESOME!

 

If it meant I'd never hear another Dodger fan whining about how Ryan Braun needed to give his MVP to him, I'd be all for it.

 

I like Kemp for how he's treated a couple fans. That being said, I don't really know him. I've thought since 2011 that he was using, and his annual string of injuries and decrease in production have made me think he could be on them.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if he were on this list.

[Point Beer Is Best]

There were 14 players suspended as a result of the initial Biogenesis bust. That's the same number of players that failed a test for non-stimulant PEDs over the previous five years. That combined with the fact that Braun was the only Biogenesis guy with a previous fail tells me that the testing is not working.

 

This - and I don't think enough emphasis has been placed on this. If the appeal for Braun had taken place as intended (meaning we never find out about his failed test in the first place), we're talking about 14 players being suspended without a single failed drug test. That's pretty alarming, and should be fairly obvious that the players who are cheating know how to beat the system.

[Thurston Fluff]

There were 14 players suspended as a result of the initial Biogenesis bust. That's the same number of players that failed a test for non-stimulant PEDs over the previous five years. That combined with the fact that Braun was the only Biogenesis guy with a previous fail tells me that the testing is not working.

 

This - and I don't think enough emphasis has been placed on this. If the appeal for Braun had taken place as intended (meaning we never find out about his failed test in the first place), we're talking about 14 players being suspended without a single failed drug test. That's pretty alarming, and should be fairly obvious that the players who are cheating know how to beat the system.

 

Except the system was not designed with only the testing component to find users. Given the fact scoring is down and people have been caught both from testing, in both the majors and minors, and through investigating allegations of use it seems pretty clear the system has reduced the number of users. I googled scoring down in baseball and saw articles over several years discussing lower scoring and the possible reasons why. While there are multiple reasons why it is obvious testing is one of them. I think the best summation I found about the effect of PED testing came in this article. http://www.getsportsinfo.com/all-sports/mlb/why-mlb-scoring-is-down/

1) Tougher steroid testing/punishments. Many media try to dance around this subject, and MLB still tries to pretend the steroid era never happened, but PED’s impact on MLB statistics is undeniable. In 2000, the top two home runs hitters in the NL were Sammy Sosa (50) and Barry Bonds (49). The obvious offenders in the AL weren’t at the very top, but Jason Giambi (43), Alex Rodriguez (41), Rafael Palmeiro (39) and Manny Ramirez (38) were all in the top 10 in homers. There were tons of others, of course, but just to show you how delicate the balance is in MLB, let’s say just 10 players drove in 20 extra runs each that season in each league because of PED use. That’s 200 extra runs or 0.09 per team, per game, accounting for nine percent of the difference in the past 14 years. And we’d be naive to think just 10 hitters in each league were juicing that year.

[TooLiveBrew]

Given the fact scoring is down and people have been caught both from testing, in both the majors and minors, and through investigating allegations of use it seems pretty clear the system has reduced the number of users.

The problem I have with this argument is that it inherently assumes that no pitchers were using at any point, or that significantly more hitters were using than pitchers all along the way. That just doesn't make sense to me. The HR isn't the only stat that being stronger & more powerful would impact.

[Thurston Fluff]

Given the fact scoring is down and people have been caught both from testing, in both the majors and minors, and through investigating allegations of use it seems pretty clear the system has reduced the number of users.

The problem I have with this argument is that it inherently assumes that no pitchers were using at any point, or that significantly more hitters were using than pitchers all along the way. That just doesn't make sense to me. The HR isn't the only stat that being stronger & more powerful would impact.

 

That is very true. But I think that can be explained by the type of skill used for each. Just like I think a runner would be more likely to get a bigger boost compared to a golfer I think the hitter gets more out of it than the pitcher. I am basing that on the fact scoring was up when PEDs were being used. Both from what they were previously and after. It's just hard to ignore the numbers and the timing of the scoring surge. While there may be some other reasons for it, better relievers, bigger parks and the like, none so closely correlate with the surge in scoring as PED usage does.

[TooLiveBrew]

Given the fact scoring is down and people have been caught both from testing, in both the majors and minors, and through investigating allegations of use it seems pretty clear the system has reduced the number of users.

The problem I have with this argument is that it inherently assumes that no pitchers were using at any point, or that significantly more hitters were using than pitchers all along the way. That just doesn't make sense to me. The HR isn't the only stat that being stronger & more powerful would impact.

 

That is very true. But I think that can be explained by the type of skill used for each. Just like I think a runner would be more likely to get a bigger boost compared to a golfer I think the hitter gets more out of it than the pitcher. I am basing that on the fact scoring was up when PEDs were being used. Both from what they were previously and after. It's just hard to ignore the numbers and the timing of the scoring surge. While there may be some other reasons for it, better relievers, bigger parks and the like, none so closely correlate with the surge in scoring as PED usage does.

To me, one possibly overlooked factor is simply that clubs probably focused a lot more on pitching from a scouting standpoint. With lineups 1-8 or 1-9 that could nearly all take you deep, my guess is smart organizations were doubling down on identifying & developing pitching. And almost inherently that would reduce the size of the pool of great hitters.

 

I realize it's just one position, & might only be coincidental & not indicative, but look at 1B across the league. Beyond a club like the Brewers not being able to do much better than Mark Reynolds, there's just not the same offensive depth at that position anymore -- even just compared to pretty recent seasons.

 

Another factor imo is as the pendulum swung back towards the pitching-&-defense side of the spectrum (once more advanced defensive analysis was developed), clubs started valuing defense more than in prior seasons. There was a run of seasons where many clubs (& obv. the Crew were as deep into this as anyone) seemed to be really focusing on the offense they could get at a position, & they viewed the defense as far less impactful... which iirc fit the statistical analysis at the time -- better to get premium offense at a position than premium defense. And clearly the 'scouting' side of the discussion frequently raged against that mentality.

 

Now that there are better ways by which defensive impact is quantified, & that imho years of heavier focuses on pitching development have born fruit at the big-league level, offense is down. I am hard-pressed to believe that a substance like HGH, which primarily helps with recovery time & not as much with muscle growth, wouldn't have a massive impact on pitcher stamina & therefore maintaining success deeper into games & seasons. A starting pitcher's job, to a large extent, is recovery from fatigue.

 

And one final thought is that I think it's setting oneself up for frustration and/or disappointment to view the past season or two as when 'PEDs are no longer being used.' They are alive & well, & as MLB fans, we're watching on a nightly basis guys who are using. I don't have a Mitchell Report or anything in my hands, but we see continued suspensions -- and as others have pointed out, many aren't based on failed tests. If you pay attention to how MLB reporters will talk about PEDs (esp. on Twitter imo) when the subject comes up, they very often cite how prevalent they still are in the league. But again, as others have already underscored in this thread, guys certainly seem to have the ability to beat the testing more often than not.

 

I think it will be very interesting years from now, if/when there's better intel on how many guys were/are using & the 'what?/when?/how?/how much? they were using' questions can be answered, to see what kind of impact PEDs really did have on the game. Even now we still have very little factual evidence, so the sample size is pretty small. I agree that hitters yoking up should lead to higher offense in general, but again I feel confident that a very similar percentage of pitchers were & are using as well.

[Thurston Fluff]

I am hard-pressed to believe that a substance like HGH, which primarily helps with recovery time & not as much with muscle growth, wouldn't have a massive impact on pitcher stamina & therefore maintaining success deeper into games & seasons. A starting pitcher's job, to a large extent, is recovery from fatigue.

 

They haven't really been testing for HGH until recently so I'm not really sure we can track it's impact quite yet. Steroids testing, on the other hand, has been around long enough to see a trend. If pitching is helped more by the things we don't test for than the things we do test for then it stands to reason scoring would be down. Once we get HGH testing for a few years I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the trend reverse somewhat. Not all the way back but to somewhere in the middle.

And one final thought is that I think it's setting oneself up for frustration and/or disappointment to view the past season or two as when 'PEDs are no longer being used.

 

I do not believe all the players are clean. I never thought the program's success should have been judged by that strict of a measure. I do believe it reduced the number of cheaters and is moving forward at reducing it even further. Especially that they now test for HGH and that also makes finding synthetic testosterone easier. I think it also helps players now know if their contacts get some heat and turn on them they are screwed even if they don't test positive.