2014-08-03 Brewers (Garza) at Cardinals (Lackey), 1:15 PM CDT [Happy 31st birthday, Mark Reynolds!; Brewers lose, 3-2]

[The stache]

Winning what is year in and year out one of the toughest division in baseball is hard enough. It's made that much harder because we are having to continually overcome the inept game management of Ron Roenicke.

 

If I'm Mark Attanasio, I don't know how I could possibly justify having Roenicke manage this team any longer.

[TooLiveBrew]

Winning what is year in and year out one of the toughest division in baseball is hard enough. It's made that much harder because we are having to continually overcome the inept game management of Ron Roenicke.

 

If I'm Mark Attanasio, I don't know how I could possibly justify having Roenicke manage this team any longer.

Except that he pulled Garza because of an injury.

 

Honestly, I get that some fans are convinced Ron is a moron, & nothing he can do or not do will change that. But imo you have to suspend reality pretty far to think that it's reasonable to conclude that he pulled a guy working a 1-hit shutout, on 71 pitches through 6 innings, so he could have Overbay hit.

 

Roenicke has never done anything like that in his entire tenure with the Crew. And then the report comes out that Garza has an oblique issue. And some still choose to believe it was just incompetence? Let's be objective here, folks.

 

If Roenicke had left Garza in the game, only to see him get injured worse, this forum would (rightly so) be enraged. But he did the right thing & protected the player from himself. If he hadn't we would've had weeks of posts about how inexcusable it was -- which would be correct.

 

Again, I understand that some fans' minds are made up on Ron. But if you aren't also going to be fair, then I don't understand how anyone can expect to have a realistic conversation.

[sveumrules]

The justification is this, the players respect him and play hard for him. That's really just about all you can ask for in this day and age. All manager's manage by the same book, so it's not like the hypothetical next guy is going to walk through the door and do anything differently.

 

I remember a lot of people were pumped when Macha was hired because he was so much smarter than idiot Yost and the team could finally realize its true potential. What happened? He was a codgy old fart, was disconnected from the players and two years of our then young core's prime window was wasted.

 

I also remember a lot of people hoping we'd give Bobby Valentine the big bucks to bring him over from Japan. The Red Sox did just that and we all know how that worked out.

[The stache]

Except that he pulled Garza because of an injury.

 

Honestly, I get that some fans are convinced Ron is a moron, & nothing he can do or not do will change that. But imo you have to suspend reality pretty far to think that it's reasonable to conclude that he pulled a guy working a 1-hit shutout, on 71 pitches through 6 innings, so he could have Overbay hit.

 

Roenicke has never done anything like that in his entire tenure with the Crew. And then the report comes out that Garza has an oblique issue. And some still choose to believe it was just incompetence? Let's be objective here, folks.

 

If Roenicke had left Garza in the game, only to see him get injured worse, this forum would (rightly so) be enraged. But he did the right thing & protected the player from himself. If he hadn't we would've had weeks of posts about how inexcusable it was -- which would be correct.

 

Again, I understand that some fans' minds are made up on Ron. But if you aren't also going to be fair, then I don't understand how anyone can expect to have a realistic conversation.

 

Are we really believing that he pulled him because of an injury? Because Garza waiting with his helmet on, and a bat in his hands doesn't sound to me like he was injured. And Garza reacting angrily in the dugout when he was pulled doesn't sound like an injury, either.

 

Why when he was pulled could the sideline reporter not get any information during the game as far as why he was pulled?

 

Something doesn't seem right here. If he was injured, why did it take so long for anybody to know it?

[TooLiveBrew]

Are we really believing that he pulled him because of an injury? Because Garza waiting with his helmet on, and a bat in his hands doesn't sound to me like he was injured. And Garza reacting angrily in the dugout when he was pulled doesn't sound like an injury, either.

Well, I am. And it easily could've played out like this -- coaching/medical staff asks Garza when he comes in the dugout what was bothering him on the mound in the 6th. Garza says something like, "I felt something in my side/right here, but I'm good." Coaching/medical staff makes executive decision to pull player, player says, "No you aren't, I'm staying in," & proceeds to go get his helmet & bat. Manager reviews situation with trainer/medical staff while the player stands in the dugout, ready to hit & wearing his helmet. Manager decides to take the advice of the medical professional employed by the team to make these kinds of diagnoses, & tells the player, "You're done," & the player reacts angrily.

 

If Garza is the 'gamer' that so many of us here assume he is, then that could easily be how that interaction played out.

 

Why when he was pulled could the sideline reporter not get any information during the game as far as why he was pulled?

 

Something doesn't seem right here. If he was injured, why did it take so long for anybody to know it?

I don't know, but even for someone who isn't a Roenicke fan like me, it's beyond the realm of possibility that a baseball lifer like Ron would pull a guy working on a shutout with an excellent pitch count. It's just not done.

[sveumrules]

Yes I'm believing it. The same way I believe that Roenicke did not give Braun three straight take signs on a 3-0 count whatever game that was. The same way I know that 99% of the time when the 3rd base coach goes through the signs he is not actually giving a sign.

 

The radio broadcast noted at the time it happened that Garza was stretching uncomfortably on the mound at the end of the 6th inning, so they obviously knew something was up. Go read Garza's quotes in McCalvy's post game article. Or maybe he's lying about being hurt to cover for his manager.

[The stache]

I'm watching a replay of the game right now, TooLiveBrew. It's in the top of the 8th inning right now, and Bill just said they're still waiting for an announcement of what happened with Garza.

 

I want to believe that Garza was hurt. But I'm going off of how Garza acted, and how the people covering the game can't get an answer. If Garza tweaked an oblique muscle, wouldn't somebody on the Brewers be able to tell the radio and tv guys what was going on? I've never heard of a guy getting injured and it taking this long before an explanation was available.

[TooLiveBrew]

I'm watching a replay of the game right now, TooLiveBrew. It's in the top of the 8th inning right now, and Bill just said they're still waiting for an announcement of what happened with Garza.

 

I want to believe that Garza was hurt. But I'm going off of how Garza acted, and how the people covering the game can't get an answer. If Garza tweaked an oblique muscle, wouldn't somebody on the Brewers be able to tell the radio and tv guys what was going on? I've never heard of a guy getting injured and it taking this long before an explanation was available.

Well the scenario that it took a long time to get injury information out to the press is about 1,000% more believable to me than that Roenicke pulled Garza in the 6th to try to tack on another run via Lyle Overbay.

[The stache]

I don't know, but even for someone who isn't a Roenicke fan like me, it's beyond the realm of possibility that a baseball lifer like Ron would pull a guy working on a shutout with an excellent pitch count. It's just not done.

 

I agree with you. It isn't done, and that's why pretty much everybody here on the forum was perplexed when it happened.

 

The sideline reporter for the Brewers is down there asking for an update on what happened to Garza. It's now 20 minutes + since he was pulled, and he still hasn't been given an answer to relay to the booth. Doesn't that strike you as odd? How hard is to say "Garza was pulled because of a pulled Oblique muscle?"

 

I like Ron Roenicke the person, but think he's a terrible manager. I'm not looking for reasons to dislike him. Something about this whole thing just doesn't seem right to me. I'm not a conspiracy nut or anything. I just don't understand why it took so long to tell somebody what happened. Obviously I'm not the only Brewer fan wondering the same. If you look at the ESPN conversation, they're all flummoxed, too.

[TooLiveBrew]

I don't know, but even for someone who isn't a Roenicke fan like me, it's beyond the realm of possibility that a baseball lifer like Ron would pull a guy working on a shutout with an excellent pitch count. It's just not done.

 

I agree with you. It isn't done, and that's why pretty much everybody here on the forum was perplexed when it happened.

 

The sideline reporter for the Brewers is down there asking for an update on what happened to Garza. It's now 20 minutes + since he was pulled, and he still hasn't been given an answer to relay to the booth. Doesn't that strike you as odd? How hard is to say "Garza was pulled because of a pulled Oblique muscle?"

 

I like Ron Roenicke the person, but think he's a terrible manager. I'm not looking for reasons to dislike him. Something about this whole thing just doesn't seem right to me. I'm not a conspiracy nut or anything. I just don't understand why it took so long to tell somebody what happened. Obviously I'm not the only Brewer fan wondering the same. If you look at the ESPN conversation, they're all flummoxed, too.

Then just read Garza's postgame comments : http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2014_08_03_milmlb_slnmlb_1&mode=recap_away&c_id=mil

 

If you read that, & still think something's up, then imo yes you are being a conspiracy theorist.

-------------------------------

 

"I'm going to stay positive and say it's not bad," Garza said, "but it's bad enough to where I had to take myself out of the game, and I don't do that. I had to look at long-term more than short-term. I could have kept going and made it worse, and I could have been out, probably, the rest of the year."

[sveumrules]

"If you look at the ESPN conversation"

 

Because ESPN is the known hangout for reasonable internet commenters. Most of the JSonline commenters share your views as well so you're in really good company stache.

[The stache]

Yes I'm believing it. The same way I believe that Roenicke did not give Braun three straight take signs on a 3-0 count whatever game that was. The same way I know that 99% of the time when the 3rd base coach goes through the signs he is not actually giving a sign.

 

The radio broadcast noted at the time it happened that Garza was stretching uncomfortably on the mound at the end of the 6th inning, so they obviously knew something was up. Go read Garza's quotes in McCalvy's post game article. Or maybe he's lying about being hurt to cover for his manager.

 

Sveum, I didn't think he was lying to cover for his manager. I did think, however, that there might be a disagreement between Garza and Roenicke. It just sounded to me like Garza felt he could pitch one more inning. If it was the manager's decision to pull him for precautionary reasons, I'm fine with that. Like TooLiveBrew stated earlier, Garza is a gamer. I just wish somebody would have told the reporter what was going on. All I had to go on was Rock, and he seemed somewhat miffed.

[The stache]

"If you look at the ESPN conversation"

 

Because ESPN is the known hangout for reasonable internet commenters. Most of the JSonline commenters share your views as well so you're in really good company stache.

 

Nice job taking a cheap shot there, Sveum. You're a real class act.

 

If you go back and look at this thread, there were several people saying the exact same things I am here. Only I left to go have dinner, and hadn't gotten any updates as to what happened. Excuse me for trying to have a conversation here that didn't meet with your approval.

[sveumrules]

I had no problem with the conversation at all. I was just trying to point out that using ESPN commenters to support your point of view does more harm to your position than it does good. That's akin to saying Kurt Suzuki is a better hitter than Paul Goldschmidt because he has a higher batting average.

[The stache]

I had no problem with the conversation at all. I was just trying to point out that using ESPN commenters to support your point of view does more harm to your position than it does good. That's akin to saying Kurt Suzuki is a better hitter than Paul Goldschmidt because he has a higher batting average.

 

Ok. Hey man, I'm sorry, Sveum. My apologies. I've had a couple of rough nights (very high levels of pain), so I'm both not thinking really clearly, and probably have a bit of a short fuse.

 

I looked at both the ESPN conversation and the JS online conversation while I was waiting for Brewerfan to come back up when I couldn't get it to load. You're right that it's probably not the best source for rational discussion, but it seemed to me that the indictments of Roenicke were without exception. I didn't want to go that far, but without a logical explanation at the ready, something seemed amiss. I was wondering if there wasn't a disagreement brewing between Roenicke and Garza. Garza has shown himself to be confrontational before.

[folly412]

Garza doesn't think it's as bad as the left oblique strain he had in spring training last year...which means not as bad as one that kept him out seven weeks. If Garza can't go Saturday not sure what roster move would be made to get Fiers up instead of going to Estrada. If it's a two start thing then it's the DL and off days mean Fiers could start Saturday vs. LAD and 8/14 @ CHC and the next need for a fifth starter could be delayed as long as the 26th.

[yfinn6]

Winning what is year in and year out one of the toughest division in baseball is hard enough. It's made that much harder because we are having to continually overcome the inept game management of Ron Roenicke.

 

If I'm Mark Attanasio, I don't know how I could possibly justify having Roenicke manage this team any longer.

Except that he pulled Garza because of an injury.

 

Honestly, I get that some fans are convinced Ron is a moron, & nothing he can do or not do will change that. But imo you have to suspend reality pretty far to think that it's reasonable to conclude that he pulled a guy working a 1-hit shutout, on 71 pitches through 6 innings, so he could have Overbay hit.

 

Roenicke has never done anything like that in his entire tenure with the Crew. And then the report comes out that Garza has an oblique issue. And some still choose to believe it was just incompetence? Let's be objective here, folks.

 

If Roenicke had left Garza in the game, only to see him get injured worse, this forum would (rightly so) be enraged. But he did the right thing & protected the player from himself. If he hadn't we would've had weeks of posts about how inexcusable it was -- which would be correct.

 

Again, I understand that some fans' minds are made up on Ron. But if you aren't also going to be fair, then I don't understand how anyone can expect to have a realistic conversation.

 

I'm with you. I was pretty agitated to not see Garza out there, particularly given the result by the end of the 7th. I figured we'd get word about why he wasn't pitching before the game was over. As fans, we're not entitled to that, but usually get it anyway.

 

Someone made a good point that RR sticks to the 100 pitch rule, which made a lot of sense. I know a lot of us were wondering what was going on, and there was a lot of "if there's NOT any injury.." type posts. Since the injury news broke, we've all been silent because we have nothing to complain about. It comes down to the bullpen not doing their job.

 

Maybe Garza was a late pull from the top of the 7th, which is why he had his helmet on? Maybe RR was thinking about it and then just decided to be safe with a 2-run lead against a Cards' offense that looked anemic. Who knows. Either way, the bullpen blew it and the Crew lost. It's a frustrating loss, but the offense went to sleep today, too.

[The stache]

The bullpen blew it, but you're right. We only scored two runs. If the pitching staff holds the other team to three runs, most nights that's a game I figure we win.

[DuWayne Steurer]

The bullpen blew it, but you're right. We only scored two runs. If the pitching staff holds the other team to three runs, most nights that's a game I figure we win.

 

You can look at it that way, or you can look at it as "you had a 2 run lead in the 7th inning, and still lost the game"

 

Either way you slice it, the win expectancy in the beginning of Matt Holliday's at bat was tilted heavily in the Brewers favor.