A question in light of La Russa's PED comments today

[craigharmann]

And by what method do you think they will get in?

 

Buying a ticket.

[logan82]

I think anyone whose performance on the field makes them good enough to be in the HOF should be in the HOF. All of the secondary crap will be remembered by most people who care. Are we supposed to just ignore a whole decade plus worth of players when so many were probably using. It's stupid and so is the attitude of those voting on who belongs. Any group of people who cannot come up with a 100% consensus on Maddux going to the HOF is seriously flawed.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I think anyone whose performance on the field makes them good enough to be in the HOF should be in the HOF. All of the secondary crap will be remembered by most people who care. Are we supposed to just ignore a whole decade plus worth of players when so many were probably using. It's stupid and so is the attitude of those voting on who belongs. Any group of people who cannot come up with a 100% consensus on Maddux going to the HOF is seriously flawed.

 

 

I agree with all this (including the statement about a group of people who wouldn't have a consensus 100% vote about Greg Maddux).

 

My point is, I don't believe the culture and mindset of the baseball writers will change by the time Braun will be eligible. I don't. Ok, my statement "Braun is not getting in" was a little strong. I should re-state that to "I have almost zero belief that Braun is getting in."

[Patrick425]

I think anyone whose performance on the field makes them good enough to be in the HOF should be in the HOF.

 

Rule #5 of the BBWAA HOF Election Rules: Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

 

Now I'm guessing you don't agree with this rule (or the bolded parts of this rule). That's fine. That's your opinion. However, that does not change the fact that this rule is in place. I'm guessing you also believe that there are players currently in the HOF that don't meet these requirements (i.e. Ty Cobb). You may be correct. Those players may have "gotten away" with having less that average integrity or character. Sometimes people do get away with things that other people don't. Life isn't fair sometimes. However, if you engage in actions that you know may have consequences and you are not lucky enough to get away with it, then I have trouble feeling sorry for you when you get caught and have to deal with those consequences.

[logan82]

I think anyone whose performance on the field makes them good enough to be in the HOF should be in the HOF.

 

Rule #5 of the BBWAA HOF Election Rules: Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

 

Now I'm guessing you don't agree with this rule (or the bolded parts of this rule). That's fine. That's your opinion. However, that does not change the fact that this rule is in place. I'm guessing you also believe that there are players currently in the HOF that don't meet these requirements (i.e. Ty Cobb). You may be correct. Those players may have "gotten away" with having less that average integrity or character. Sometimes people do get away with things that other people don't. Life isn't fair sometimes. However, if you engage in actions that you know may have consequences and you are not lucky enough to get away with it, then I have trouble feeling sorry for you when you get caught and have to deal with those consequences.

The only time people point to that rule is when it is convenient.

 

There are also enough guys left out just because of suspicion of using. I believe the whole era is tainted enough you can't believe anyone was clean. If there are guys left out just because there is a suspision they used even the guys voted in yesterday shouldn't have been in.

[Patrick425]

I think anyone whose performance on the field makes them good enough to be in the HOF should be in the HOF.

 

Rule #5 of the BBWAA HOF Election Rules: Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

 

Now I'm guessing you don't agree with this rule (or the bolded parts of this rule). That's fine. That's your opinion. However, that does not change the fact that this rule is in place. I'm guessing you also believe that there are players currently in the HOF that don't meet these requirements (i.e. Ty Cobb). You may be correct. Those players may have "gotten away" with having less that average integrity or character. Sometimes people do get away with things that other people don't. Life isn't fair sometimes. However, if you engage in actions that you know may have consequences and you are not lucky enough to get away with it, then I have trouble feeling sorry for you when you get caught and have to deal with those consequences.

The only time people point to that rule is when it is convenient.

 

There are also enough guys left out just because of suspicion of using. I believe the whole era is tainted enough you can't believe anyone was clean. If there are guys left out just because there is a suspension they used even the guys voted in yesterday shouldn't have been in.

 

This is one of the reasons I have a very hard time being a fan of someone who get's caught using PEDs. It casts doubt over everything and is a slap in the face to those players who play the game cleanly.

[logan82]

I don't see many(if any) of the sports writers giving up their HOF vote because they stuck their heads in the sand for over a decade. How can they judge someone else's character when theirs is lacking.

[Fear The Chorizo]

The baseball HOF already has a long list of players and managers inshrined who were cheaters, criminals, racists, substance abusers, and downright awful human beings. Letting PED users in should be a walk in the park for them. The "integrity, sportsmanship, character" section of the rule doesn't apply to over 1/2 of HOF's current members. The reason the dregs are in the HOF is because the voters themselves are pretty much dregs in their own right.

 

There's already been the dead ball era, the raised pitchers mound era, the 1st half of MLB's existence occurred without integration, and countless other periods over the last century and a quarter that have altered criteria for people getting inducted into the HOF...why can't there be references to the steroid era within the hall? After all, it's nothing more than a history museum. Right now MLB's conducting themselves as if they were Germany a few decades after WWII ended...reminds me of an episode of Family guy when Brian and Stewie end up on a German tour bus. When they ask what happened between the mid 1930's and 1945, the tour guide promptly interjects, "Everyone was on vacation!"

[monty57]

I hope at some point MLB figures out the difference between steroids and HGH. If it is indeed true that HGH simply helps the body heal, then I think it should become legal because in that case, it is probably about equivalent to a cortisone injection. Meanwhile, looking at the physical changes in players like Sosa and Bonds, steroids are roughly the equivalent of Steve Rogers' super-soldier formula.

 

That baseball seems to perpetuate the myth that players like Braun took steroids leads me to believe that Mr. Selig ought to be forbade from the Hall of Fame based on the "integrity, sportsmanship, character" rule.

[Patrick425]

...why can't there be references to the steroid era within the hall? After all, it's nothing more than a history museum. Right now MLB's conducting themselves as if they were Germany a few decades after WWII ended...reminds me of an episode of Family guy when Brian and Stewie end up on a German tour bus. When they ask what happened between the mid 1930's and 1945, the tour guide promptly interjects, "Everyone was on vacation!"

 

I wouldn't have a problem with the HOF making references to the steroid era within the hall, but I don't see the point in honoring the players that took steroids during that era. Under your analogy, that would be the same as Germany not only acknowledging the Holocaust but honoring the Nazi's that took part in it.

[Patrick425]

I hope at some point MLB figures out the difference between steroids and HGH. If it is indeed true that HGH simply helps the body heal, then I think it should become legal because in that case, it is probably about equivalent to a cortisone injection. Meanwhile, looking at the physical changes in players like Sosa and Bonds, steroids are roughly the equivalent of Steve Rogers' super-soldier formula.

 

That baseball seems to perpetuate the myth that players like Braun took steroids leads me to believe that Mr. Selig ought to be forbade from the Hall of Fame based on the "integrity, sportsmanship, character" rule.

 

I don't see baseball perpetuating the myth that Braun took steroids. I see them penalizing him for breaking the rules agreed upon by both the players and the owners. The players take equal part in forming the rules established under the collective bargaining agreement. If the players believe that there are currently banned substances that should not be banned because they simply help the body heal (which I'm guessing is somewhat debatable) then they should negotiate that in the next CBA.

[TooLiveBrew]

I hope at some point MLB figures out the difference between steroids and HGH. If it is indeed true that HGH simply helps the body heal, then I think it should become legal because in that case, it is probably about equivalent to a cortisone injection. Meanwhile, looking at the physical changes in players like Sosa and Bonds, steroids are roughly the equivalent of Steve Rogers' super-soldier formula.

 

That baseball seems to perpetuate the myth that players like Braun took steroids leads me to believe that Mr. Selig ought to be forbade from the Hall of Fame based on the "integrity, sportsmanship, character" rule.

 

I don't see baseball perpetuating the myth that Braun took steroids. I see them penalizing him for breaking the rules agreed upon by both the players and the owners. The players take equal part in forming the rules established under the collective bargaining agreement. If the players believe that there are currently banned substances that should not be banned because they simply help the body heal (which I'm guessing is somewhat debatable) then they should negotiate that in the next CBA.

MLB itself broke the confidentiality rules they agreed to, & then additionally pursued a Braun suspension even though he'd won his appeal... which was won by going through the process of rules MLB also agreed to.

 

I get that people don't like "steroids" (air quotes there because, like monty57 notes, it's not a one-size-fits-all kind of thing), but the fact that one has to basically knowingly do mental gymnastics to see MLB as the clear do-gooder in this case really frustrates me.

 

This discussion & debate have been had to the point of exhaustion on this forum, so I doubt anyone will change anyone else's mind. Braun did something against the agreed-upon rules, & so did MLB.

[Patrick425]

This discussion & debate have been had to the point of exhaustion on this forum, so I doubt anyone will change anyone else's mind. Braun did something against the agreed-upon rules, & so did MLB.

 

Very good point TooLiveBrew. I always tell myself that I'm not going to get pulled into these conversations when they come up on the board, but then I find myself getting into the debate. I agree that I don't think minds will be changed with these discussions. Seems like this subject matter usually ends up just creating tension between the brewerfan users. Barring any earth shattering breaking news, I'm going to do my best to just try to stay out of these discussions when they pop up (but no promises!).

[TooLiveBrew]

This discussion & debate have been had to the point of exhaustion on this forum, so I doubt anyone will change anyone else's mind. Braun did something against the agreed-upon rules, & so did MLB.

 

Very good point TooLiveBrew. I always tell myself that I'm not going to get pulled into these conversations when they come up on the board, but then I find myself getting into the debate. I agree that I don't think minds will be changed with these discussions. Seems like this subject matter usually ends up just creating tension between the brewerfan users. Barring any earth shattering breaking news, I'm going to do my best to just try to stay out of these discussions when they pop up (but no promises!).

Same here, on both points!

[JimH5]

I like the discussion, and I don't really mind the conflict.

 

Nobody has to agree with me--it's just opinion. Though I consider it a challenge to try to influence people toward my side of thinking, and I would hope that I'm open minded enough to change my mind when others make a compelling argument.

[dlk9s]

...why can't there be references to the steroid era within the hall? After all, it's nothing more than a history museum. Right now MLB's conducting themselves as if they were Germany a few decades after WWII ended...reminds me of an episode of Family guy when Brian and Stewie end up on a German tour bus. When they ask what happened between the mid 1930's and 1945, the tour guide promptly interjects, "Everyone was on vacation!"

 

I wouldn't have a problem with the HOF making references to the steroid era within the hall, but I don't see the point in honoring the players that took steroids during that era. Under your analogy, that would be the same as Germany not only acknowledging the Holocaust but honoring the Nazi's that took part in it.

 

Godwin's Law ACHIEVED!

[Patrick425]

Ha. True! Admittedly...I had to Google Godwin's law.

[1992casey]

He says throw the Bags, Biggio, The Rocket, The Big Mac, Slammin' Sammy, and of course Barry, but with an asterisk…

 

Getting back to the the idea presented in the lead, I'm against asterisks. We've been there and done that with Maris, and that was eventually addressed. If players are voted in or left out, people will be smart enough to sort things out.