A question in light of La Russa's PED comments today

[guylanderfridancies]

He says throw the Bags, Biggio, The Rocket, The Big Mac, Slammin' Sammy, and of course Barry, but with an asterisk in to the Hall. Voters still going to vote no, so it's not like it means anything, but my question is this:

 

What if down the road someone like Braun, Melky Cabrera, or any other players that failed a test and were suspended, went on to have say, a 20-year career of all-star numbers, maybe won some championships, and essentially had a HOF worthy career?.. Are they blacklisted from the HOF already? There's no rules that say so, but if the writers aren't going to let the old users in, why would they let the younger ones? Granted, the younger ones didn't for as long as the old guys.. but still.. do you think it would be Ryan Braun HOF*, Ryan Braun HOF, or just Ryan Braun..guy who used to dominate for the brew crew.

 

It's so far down the road and potentially not even going to matter, but it made me wonder.

[swheeler23]

He says throw the Bags, Biggio, The Rocket, The Big Mac, Slammin' Sammy, and of course Barry, but with an asterisk in to the Hall. Voters still going to vote no, so it's not like it means anything, but my question is this:

 

What if down the road someone like Braun, Melky Cabrera, or any other players that failed a test and were suspended, went on to have say, a 20-year career of all-star numbers, maybe won some championships, and essentially had a HOF worthy career?.. Are they blacklisted from the HOF already? There's no rules that say so, but if the writers aren't going to let the old users in, why would they let the younger ones? Granted, the younger ones didn't for as long as the old guys.. but still.. do you think it would be Ryan Braun HOF*, Ryan Braun HOF, or just Ryan Braun..guy who used to dominate for the brew crew.

 

It's so far down the road and potentially not even going to matter, but it made me wonder.

 

When did Biggio become involved with steroids?

[guylanderfridancies]

 

When did Biggio become involved with steroids?

 

He didn't necessarily, I just figured a lot of the voters tied him to that whole group of guys so I threw his name in there.. even though he only missed the hall by two votes, and he'll probably get in. so I guess saying his name was a little unwarranted? I think some of the writers associate him with it which is unfair, but that's life?. That really has nothing to do with the question, but yea.

 

Ryan Braun already blacklisted from HOF?

[SRB]

If another decade passes and Barry Bonds is not in the Hall of Fame or is in the Hall of Fame with an asterisk (??), then the Hall of Fame really has no business existing. The fact that managers are inducted already calls into question its relevance/meaningfulness.

[guylanderfridancies]

If another decade passes and Barry Bonds is not in the Hall of Fame or is in the Hall of Fame with an asterisk (??), then the Hall of Fame really has no business existing. The fact that managers are inducted already calls into question its relevance/meaningfulness.

 

 

I agree with your first point, but I think managers ought to be considered. A great manager keeps the team morale and focus in check on top of the tactics that go in to winning games. A great manager has the potential to sway players decisions in where they want to play.

 

Dan Le Batard sold his HOF vote. I don't get why he wouldn't just vote for those guys in the first place. But I bet he probably feels the same about the HOF as you.

[BrewersSuperCollector]

 

When did Biggio become involved with steroids?

 

He didn't necessarily, I just figured a lot of the voters tied him to that whole group of guys so I threw his name in there.. even though he only missed the hall by two votes, and he'll probably get in. so I guess saying his name was a little unwarranted? I think some of the writers associate him with it which is unfair, but that's life?. That really has nothing to do with the question, but yea.

 

Ryan Braun already blacklisted from HOF?

 

Biggio missed the HOF by 2 votes. I don't think people associate him with the others in the steroid era.

 

You wrote, " He says throw the Bags, Biggio, The Rocket...."

 

Then you wrote,"He didn't necessarily..."

 

I didn't see what Larussa said. Did he include Biggio or not?

[craigharmann]

I'm good with that, as long as LaRussa is high on the list to go into the asterisk wing.

[Pugger]

 

When did Biggio become involved with steroids?

 

He didn't necessarily, I just figured a lot of the voters tied him to that whole group of guys so I threw his name in there.. even though he only missed the hall by two votes, and he'll probably get in. so I guess saying his name was a little unwarranted? I think some of the writers associate him with it which is unfair, but that's life?. That really has nothing to do with the question, but yea.

Ryan Braun already blacklisted from HOF?

 

Possibly. For some reason he is reviled more than other ball players that got caught mostly because he lied about it. However, he isn't the first nor probably not the last to lie about it. The only way IMO he gets in is if in the future folks forgive and forget. Braun may be an old man before he gets in.

[RockCoCougars]

You or I have about the same odds for induction into the HOF as Braun does at this point.

[JimH5]

What if down the road someone like Braun, Melky Cabrera, or any other players that failed a test and were suspended, went on to have say, a 20-year career of all-star numbers, maybe won some championships, and essentially had a HOF worthy career?.. Are they blacklisted from the HOF already? There's no rules that say so, but if the writers aren't going to let the old users in, why would they let the younger ones? Granted, the younger ones didn't for as long as the old guys.. but still.. do you think it would be Ryan Braun HOF*, Ryan Braun HOF, or just Ryan Braun..guy who used to dominate for the brew crew.

 

It's so far down the road and potentially not even going to matter, but it made me wonder.

 

As for Braun, I can't see him ever getting in. His denials and finger pointing and preening were so over-the-top...there's no way to make that stuff go away. To me, it's like Rafael Palmeiro's appearance before Congress. It defines his career as much as any hit or championship or award.

[joepepsi]

Where is the evidence or even conjecture that Bagwell used steroids?

[crossface21]

Guys won't be on the ballot as long anymore. According to this article, McGwire only has 2 years of eligibility left to make it and the other guys only have 8.

viewtopic.php?f=63&t=31685

[JimH5]

Regarding Bagwell, I don't think there's any evidence. People fishing for stuff might use his huge power numbers in the steroid era. And he had a bad complexion. And his odd shoulder injury. And rapid growth beard.

 

There's enough about the era to be suspicious about everyone, and once you view everyone with that suspicion, you start to see things that may or may not be there.

[BrewersSuperCollector]

Guys won't be on the ballot as long anymore. According to this article, McGwire only has 2 years of eligibility left to make it and the other guys only have 8.

viewtopic.php?f=63&t=31685

 

Is reducing from 15 to 10 years a way to get the players closer to the veterans committee vote.

[Dead Simmons]

Guys won't be on the ballot as long anymore. According to this article, McGwire only has 2 years of eligibility left to make it and the other guys only have 8.

viewtopic.php?f=63&t=31685

 

Is reducing from 15 to 10 years a way to get the players closer to the veterans committee vote.

That's a good question. I think not.

[JimH5]

It doesn't necessarily get them closer to the Veterans Committee, but it does get them off of the BBWAA purgatory sooner. The writers don't need 15 years to argue the merits of Jack Morris or Don Mattingly or Lee Smith. Ten years should be enough. And then for guys who aren't elected, they can be considered by the various Veterans Committee groups that the HOF creates. Currently they would be considered by the Expansion Era Committee.

 

As it relates to PED guys, I don't think this serves them well, as the Veterans Committees have generally been filled with some of the more hard line "anti-cheating" guys.

 

From the HOF website:

 

Name: The Expansion Era Committee ("The Committee") shall refer to the electorate that considers retired Major League Baseball players no longer eligible for election by the Baseball Writers' Association of America (BBWAA), along with managers, umpires and executives, whose greatest contributions to the game were realized from the 1973-present era.

 

Membership: The Expansion Era Committee shall consist of 16 members, comprised of members of the National Baseball Hall of Fame, executives, and veteran media members. The Chairman of the Board of Directors of the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, Inc. shall act as the non-voting chairman of the committee and shall act as non-voting Secretary of the Committee.

 

The 16-member Hall of Fame Board-appointed electorate charged with the review of the Expansion Era ballot features: Hall of Fame members Rod Carew, Carlton Fisk, Whitey Herzog, Tommy Lasorda, Joe Morgan, Paul Molitor, Phil Niekro and Frank Robinson; major league executives Paul Beeston (Blue Jays), Andy MacPhail, Dave Montgomery (Phillies) and Jerry Reinsdorf (White Sox); and historians Steve Hirdt (Elias Sports Bureau), Bruce Jenkins (San Francisco Chronicle), Jack O’Connell (BBWAA) and Jim Reeves (retired, Fort Worth Star-Telegram).

 

 

If five guys from that list give a candidate the thumbs down, then they aren't elected. I don't see Herzog, Lasorda, Morgan, Robinson and O'Connell as picking any PED players. I don't know enough about the other committee members to form an opinion.

[SRB]

As for Braun, I can't see him ever getting in. His denials and finger pointing and preening were so over-the-top...there's no way to make that stuff go away. To me, it's like Rafael Palmeiro's appearance before Congress. It defines his career as much as any hit or championship or award.

 

Yeah that one brief, fairly restrained press conference he gave that one time was really quite outrageous. :roll eyes

 

*Edit* My theory is that Braun is the most reviled 100% just because he is perceived as a cocky fratboy/prettyboy kind of guy. (JimH5, you're allegation of him "preening" seems telling, what does that even mean in this context?) I really don't even think that reputation is totally fair, but if he looked different and had a different personality I guarantee you the media would be more forgiving.

 

Not that he's a Hall of Famer, but Melky Cabrera went so far as to create a fake website and a bunch of ridiculous lies to avoid his suspension, and nobody seems to hate him. All Braun did was seize upon legitimate procedural blunders in the chain of custody of his sample to create reasonable doubt and argue his case at an arbitration hearing. The media blew it out of proportion probably because somebody like Buster Olney hated guys like Braun back in college.

[Patrick425]

What if down the road someone like Braun, Melky Cabrera, or any other players that failed a test and were suspended, went on to have say, a 20-year career of all-star numbers, maybe won some championships, and essentially had a HOF worthy career?.. Are they blacklisted from the HOF already? There's no rules that say so, but if the writers aren't going to let the old users in, why would they let the younger ones? Granted, the younger ones didn't for as long as the old guys.. but still.. do you think it would be Ryan Braun HOF*, Ryan Braun HOF, or just Ryan Braun..guy who used to dominate for the brew crew.

 

It's so far down the road and potentially not even going to matter, but it made me wonder.

 

As for Braun, I can't see him ever getting in. His denials and finger pointing and preening were so over-the-top...there's no way to make that stuff go away. To me, it's like Rafael Palmeiro's appearance before Congress. It defines his career as much as any hit or championship or award.

 

What Jim said. I have no issue with steroid users not being voted into the HOF.

[HiAndTight]

You or I have about the same odds for induction into the HOF as Braun does at this point.

 

At this point as in what he's done thus far, or ever? If it's the later, I think that's ridiculous. If Braun goes on to hit .305, ends up with 2600 hits, gets another 250+ HR's and has a few more big years, then I think it'll be far enough removed from his positive test and his performance after the fact may well be enough to merit consideration. And Braun is the type of hitter who may lose power, but I think if his health cooperates, he can continue to be a very good hitter.

[DuWayne Steurer]

You or I have about the same odds for induction into the HOF as Braun does at this point.

 

At this point as in what he's done thus far, or ever? If it's the later, I think that's ridiculous. If Braun goes on to hit .305, ends up with 2600 hits, gets another 250+ HR's and has a few more big years, then I think it'll be far enough removed from his positive test and his performance after the fact may well be enough to merit consideration. And Braun is the type of hitter who may lose power, but I think if his health cooperates, he can continue to be a very good hitter.

 

 

Palmeiro is over 3000 hits and 500 homeruns (both 'automatic' benchmarks in the past) and hasn't even SNIFFED election.

 

Braun isn't getting in.

[JimH5]

 

Yeah that one brief, fairly restrained press conference he gave that one time was really quite outrageous. :roll eyes

 

All Braun did was seize upon legitimate procedural blunders in the chain of custody of his sample to create reasonable doubt and argue his case at an arbitration hearing.

 

That's not all he did. But you can't see it because your rearview mirror has a blind spot.

[RockCoCougars]

You or I have about the same odds for induction into the HOF as Braun does at this point.

 

At this point as in what he's done thus far, or ever? If it's the later, I think that's ridiculous. If Braun goes on to hit .305, ends up with 2600 hits, gets another 250+ HR's and has a few more big years, then I think it'll be far enough removed from his positive test and his performance after the fact may well be enough to merit consideration. And Braun is the type of hitter who may lose power, but I think if his health cooperates, he can continue to be a very good hitter.

 

 

Palmeiro is over 3000 hits and 500 homeruns (both 'automatic' benchmarks in the past) and hasn't even SNIFFED election.

 

Braun isn't getting in.

 

Palmeiro was the exact comparison that I was going to draw, as he and Braun made the most public denials of PED usage, of those later found to be liars. Braun's press conference is right there with Palmeiro's finger wagging. Going further, even if Braun were 100% clean, he would probably be less than 50/50 as a HOF at this point. He would have had to have been very productive and mostly injury free throughout his 30's to compile the necessary statistics. Moot point now.

[HiAndTight]

You or I have about the same odds for induction into the HOF as Braun does at this point.

 

At this point as in what he's done thus far, or ever? If it's the later, I think that's ridiculous. If Braun goes on to hit .305, ends up with 2600 hits, gets another 250+ HR's and has a few more big years, then I think it'll be far enough removed from his positive test and his performance after the fact may well be enough to merit consideration. And Braun is the type of hitter who may lose power, but I think if his health cooperates, he can continue to be a very good hitter.

 

 

Palmeiro is over 3000 hits and 500 homeruns (both 'automatic' benchmarks in the past) and hasn't even SNIFFED election.

 

Braun isn't getting in.

 

[sarcasm]Right,there is no difference between the two, and no way that the outlook on Braun could be just a tad different 20 years from now.[/sarcasm]

 

And it's not just probably, it's definitive. He is NOT getting in. Even if he plays until 45 and gets another 2500 hits, he's not getting in. The minds of writers in college right now have already been made up and cannot be changed under any circumstance.

[HiAndTight]

 

Palmeiro was the exact comparison that I was going to draw, as he and Braun made the most public denials of PED usage, of those later found to be liars. Braun's press conference is right there with Palmeiro's finger wagging. Going further, even if Braun were 100% clean, he would probably be less than 50/50 as a HOF at this point. He would have had to have been very productive and mostly injury free throughout his 30's to compile the necessary statistics. Moot point now.

 

 

Palmeiro went before congress. Not the same a denying it in a press conference.

Palmeiro did it at the end of his career, not at age 28 with time to try and atone for his mistakes.

 

And I don't know many players who are likely HOF'ers at age 30, but it's anything but a moot point. At some point players who tested positive are most likely going to get in.

[JimH5]

At some point players who tested positive are most likely going to get in.

 

Who do you think is getting in?

 

And by what method do you think they will get in?