Cubs Trade Samardzija and Hammel to Oakland A's

[SRB]

I can't comprehend how Cubs fans could be mad about trading a soon-to-be free agent who had a 4.34 ERA last season and getting an elite shortstop prospect who is arguably a top-10 prospect in all of baseball. I guess the inclusion of Hammel is what got it done, but that is an amazing return for Samardzija.

 

Samardzija is having a great year, but that's like the Brewers trading Gallardo and Estrada for a top-10 prospect. (And Oakland's #2 prospect to boot).

[trwi7]

If I were the Cubs I would wait to buy Price when he becomes a free agent. No reason to give up anything now when you can buy him a couple years from now when he will really help the team. Use your resources to get talent not available in free agency in a couple years.

 

This is exactly why the Cubs plan wont work and they wont be able to get good pitching. Price will go to a team that will re-sign him and prevent him from even going to FA. That's how much money is in MLB right now.

 

Why would price sign when he's already as close as he is to free agency?

[PrinceFielderx1]

If I were the Cubs I would wait to buy Price when he becomes a free agent. No reason to give up anything now when you can buy him a couple years from now when he will really help the team. Use your resources to get talent not available in free agency in a couple years.

 

This is exactly why the Cubs plan wont work and they wont be able to get good pitching. Price will go to a team that will re-sign him and prevent him from even going to FA. That's how much money is in MLB right now.

 

Why would price sign when he's already as close as he is to free agency?

 

He'd get market rate regardless, because many more teams due to the new mlb TV deal have much more money to spend. I fully expect less and less top players to hit FA due to this. Pitching is at a premium more than hitting, so this cubs move makes even less sense.

[trwi7]

You don't know if you're signing for market value unless you actually hit the market.

[PrinceFielderx1]

You don't know if you're signing for market value unless you actually hit the market.

 

25 million a year is easily doable for most teams in the MLB for Price. 8 years 180 million is very doable prior to FA and he'd take that deal even if you add 10-15 million, which teams could do. The days where top talent hits FA is dwindling. Pre arby deals that buy out FA are dramatically increasing, and pre FA deals are now on the rise. The Cubs plan is stupid. team will know they are desperate for pitching now that they have none and take advantage. As one poster said you can't build a SP staff in 1, 2 or 3 offseason with trades and FA. This Cubs move just insured they wont be a threat for at least 5+ years. Could have been sooner. Their fans should be pissed.

[JohnBriggs12]

While this particular deal appears to be fine, I have a problem with a team basically deciding they are not going to compete for half a decade. Particularly in a sport like baseball where 162 games are played every year and teams charge major league prices regardless and where many hard core fans are elderly, many of whom won't be around if and when this plan works out. I'm all for a long term approach, but not at the total expense of the present. I hope Epstein fails miserably so this doesn't become a model for franchises elsewhere. I don't want to see MLB become the NBA.

[logan82]

As one poster said you can't build a SP staff in 1, 2 or 3 offseason with trades and FA.

Sure he said it but he was wrong.

[DuWayne Steurer]

As one poster said you can't build a SP staff in 1, 2 or 3 offseason with trades and FA.

Sure he said it but he was wrong.

 

Right.

 

Wolf signed in 2010.

 

Greinke and Marcum were traded for before 2011. That's 3/5ths of a staff right there via FA and trade, in 2 off-seasons.

[jjfanec]

We had no impact pitching come up with our big group of prospects (Fielder, Weeks, Hart, Hardy, Braun, Lucroy) that lead to two playoff appearances, except Gallardo. We had to trade for CC, Greinke, and Marcum, and Wolf. The Cubs can bring up their impact bats and then trade or sign for the pitching they'll need when the time is right.

 

Yo was a top 20 prospect the Cubs dont have anyone to match that. Now you are right they can get the pitching but they are going to have to trade a lot of pieces to get top line pitching. Are they going to want to go after rentals like the Brewers did with CC, Greinke, and Marcum? It is tough to trade for very good, young pitching. It can be done but the Brewers had to cripple a farm system to do it. The perk the Cubs have is they have been terrible and will be for another year or two so they will have another couple top picks to add to that farm system.

 

I am not trying to say what the Cubs did was wrong. I think it was a move they needed to make but I also dont think adding starting pitching is as easy as some here are making it out to be. We only got CC for a half a season. To get a year and a half of Marcum and Greinke we gave up Lawrie, Escobar, Odorizzi, Cain, Jeffress. The benefit the Cubs have is with their potential payroll they could probably sign the guys they trade for to long term deals

[Pugger]

I'm glad this guy didn't go to the Reds, Cards or Pirates and he is in the AL.

[TheCrew07]

As one poster said you can't build a SP staff in 1, 2 or 3 offseason with trades and FA.

Sure he said it but he was wrong.

 

The Rays traded for Kazmir(2004), Garza(2007), Jackson(2006) in addition to developing Shields out of their system. That was a 4 year span but the point is that they traded for 3/5ths of their World Series rotation and if you can identify good targets, trading for younger pre-arby pitchers is the way to go. All of those guys were later flipped as their farm system started churning out better pitchers... young impact pitching is the gift that keeps on giving.

[3and2Fastball]

Samardzija is having a great year, but that's like the Brewers trading Gallardo and Estrada for a top-10 prospect. (And Oakland's #2 prospect to boot).

 

They might've been able to do that last year at the Trade Deadline. Jimmy Nelson in this year's rotation and you don't skip a beat (except you have a Top 10 prospect)

[502 to Right]

You don't know if you're signing for market value unless you actually hit the market.

 

As one poster said you can't build a SP staff in 1, 2 or 3 offseason with trades and FA. This Cubs move just insured they wont be a threat for at least 5+ years. Could have been sooner. Their fans should be pissed.

 

The Cubs can sign Hammel as a FA after this season and they can sign Samardzija as a FA after next season. Neither one is signing an extension with the A's. The Cubs lose nothing in this deal that they can't get back.

[igor67]

Said poster was I and pointing to the Rays consummating 3 trades over 3 years to build a rotation is precisely my concern. If the Cubs want a rotation to match the time frame those hitters are going to be ready they need to start finding guys right now.

[logan82]

As one poster said you can't build a SP staff in 1, 2 or 3 offseason with trades and FA.

Sure he said it but he was wrong.

 

Right.

 

Wolf signed in 2010.

 

Greinke and Marcum were traded for before 2011. That's 3/5ths of a staff right there via FA and trade, in 2 off-seasons.

That's also on a pretty limited budget. A team can easily buy and trade for a starting rotation over a couple years. It's been done a few times recently.

[HiAndTight]

He'd get market rate regardless, because many more teams due to the new mlb TV deal have much more money to spend. I fully expect less and less top players to hit FA due to this. Pitching is at a premium more than hitting, so this cubs move makes even less sense.

 

Aside from what Trwi said that you don't know what market value is until you're actually ON the FA market, how is this logic working out for the Tigers who offered Sherzer a 6 year 144 million dollar deal that he turned down?

 

If you're that worried about the Cubs not being able to put together a winner, they can go out and sign Max Sherzer, David Price, and trade for a Jimmy Nelson type pitcher(at least) and still put a team on the field that would have a payroll around 100 million dollars(meaning they likely could spend more if they had any desire to do so) and in addition to Rizzo and Castro put 7 other top 70 prospects on the field.

 

I would MUCH rather a team build this way than go half way. What's the difference between winning 75-80 games and winning 70 games from a fans perspective? They weren't going to compete this year, so Hammel doesn't hurt them. They weren't going to compete next year, so Samardzjia doesn't hurt them. The only thing going your suggested route does(ie, trading FOR David Price now) is take Addison Russel and the rest of the haul they got from the A's out of the equation, and probably two top 25 prospects out of the equation for when the Cubs ARE actually ready to contend.

 

Herb Kohl annoyed me for years by trying to pacify fans by being "good enough," to keep fans mildly interested until the bottom totally fell out. Cubs fans have been dealing with this for years.

 

So what the hell, if you're not a playoff team and you know you're not, save your money, turn the assets you have who won't be there when you're ready to contend into assets who will be, and pile up the top draft picks. And do it with a payroll of 90 million dollars as opposed to 150 million(they're probably only paying players ON the team 60 million or so..I haven't bothered to look).

 

In addition to that whole sick list of elite prospects the Cubs have(and they could easily have 10-12 top 100, and 6 top 30 next year) they could also next the top overall pick and add an elite young pitcher.

 

 

As much as I hope PrinceFielderx1 is right with his Brewers optimism and Cubs pessimism, I think the Cubs and Cards are built to dominate this division in that not too distant future. Sure, things can go wrong with prospects. Can't miss guys can miss, guys can under perform. But when you accumulate THIS much talent, you're likely to hit on several of them. And they're getting out of debt and they'll be able to spend.

[StearnsFTW]

Great haul for the Cubs. Russell is going to be a really really good player IMO.

 

Also a good deal for Oakland. They seem to make the playoffs a lot, without ever winning a series. They need better starting pitching, despite their preposterous run differential this season.

[I Heart Brewers]

This is exactly why the Cubs plan wont work and they wont be able to get good pitching. Price will go to a team that will re-sign him and prevent him from even going to FA. That's how much money is in MLB right now.

Why would price sign when he's already as close as he is to free agency?

He'd get market rate regardless, because many more teams due to the new mlb TV deal have much more money to spend. I fully expect less and less top players to hit FA due to this. Pitching is at a premium more than hitting, so this cubs move makes even less sense.

 

If that's the case then the Cubs can just do exactly what the A's just did. Trade some of their assets for pitching talent and extend them before free agency.

 

I think this is a great move by the Cubs. They are building the right way. Division keeps getting scarier and scarier.

 

Edit: added quotes

[Fear The Chorizo]

Late to the party on this trade due to the holiday weekend, but wanted to make a few points:

 

1 - Hammel is much more than a throw-in to make the deal happen - Shark and Hammel were both among the top 5 arms likely to be traded by this year's deadline, and Hammel's arguably been the better pitcher this season. That it took both of these guys to get what Oakland returned to them shows just how valued top tier prospects are in today's game.

 

2 - it's obvious that the Cubs are stockpiling talent to try and flip for impact pitching, which could happen as soon as this offseason - there's just too many middle infielders throughout their organization not to use in trades. The difficulty becomes identifying which of these prospects are better to be traded and better to be kept. The other problem is assuming that impact pitching is there to be acquired for the Cubs when they decide they want it - I think the Cubs would have difficulty finding better options than Shark via trade in the offseason unless they included prospects that Cub fans would hate losing. At some point Theo's gotta pull the trigger and focus on the big league roster, but that never happens overnight, either. Remember, for all this talk of saving money on the major league payroll, they did give Edwin Jackson a 4 year deal for no good reason at all. I think Cub fans are going to be really frustrated when all these guys aren't on the opening day roster next spring, and even more frustrated when they realize the impact pitching available via trade or free agency tends to be the old and very expensive variety. Young, top of the rotation pitching prospects tend to be untouchable nowadays.

 

3 - Yes, the Cubs currently have a who's who list of prospects in their system, but eventually prospects have to prove it in the big leagues and it's extremely difficult if not impossible to break in a handful of youngsters at the same time and expect them all to treat major league pitching like AA pitching. The KC comparison was poo-pooed earlier in this thread, but I actually think it's quite similar from a prospect standpoint. The difference is the Cubs should have more $ to improve their big league club in areas the prospects can't fill.

 

4 - for all the talk about how scary the rest of the division looks, wondering why the Brewers' organization isn't mentioned more often...after all, they are currently in 1st place, for all the grief their farm system gets I can't think of a time where pitching depth was better throughout the organization (absolutely critical for being competitive long term in a small market), and I can't think of a team who had a better 2014 draft/international signing period than the Crew. Aside from Nelson their best prospects are years away, but you can't argue the level of talent in the Brewer organization hasn't increased significantly over the last 12 months.

[Fear The Chorizo]

You don't know if you're signing for market value unless you actually hit the market.

 

As one poster said you can't build a SP staff in 1, 2 or 3 offseason with trades and FA. This Cubs move just insured they wont be a threat for at least 5+ years. Could have been sooner. Their fans should be pissed.

 

The Cubs can sign Hammel as a FA after this season and they can sign Samardzija as a FA after next season. Neither one is signing an extension with the A's. The Cubs lose nothing in this deal that they can't get back.

 

Wouldn't the Cubs likely forfeit their 1st round draft picks by signing quality free agent pitchers over the next few seasons? Or are top 5/top 10 picks protected with the new rules? If those pics aren't protected, I have a hard time seeing the Cubs being huge FA players, at least until their 1st round pick is back in the teens.

[young guns]

Top 10 is protected under the cba.