Milwaukee Bucks 2014 - 2015 (part 1)

[RockCoCougars]

I keep going back and forth on this deal. Yes, the Bucks sold high on Knight, but Philly did the same with Williams. I'm not sold that Williams is much more than a stat padder on a bad team. His shooting stats certainly are not encouraging, but hopefully he can continue to develop his defense and passing. This deal will almost certainly have an adverse effect on the team this season, but on the other hand the Bucks may have dodged a bullet by not overpaying Knight this summer.

[trwi7]

Of course it was available!

 

The Suns traded the Lakers pick, Plumlee and Ennis and got back Knight. That's it. No players or picks from the Sixers. Are you saying the Suns wouldn't have done that deal just with the Bucks but somehow, for some reason agreed to it when Philly got involved?

 

The discussion could have been between Phoenix & Philadelphia for the 1st round pick + for MCW, but perhaps Phoenix decided they didn't want MCW, so they got Milwaukee involved for Brandon Knight? Perhaps Milwaukee didn't want the pick and instead wanted an asset. We just don't know. Stating matter of factly that Milwaukee could have been sitting with the Lakers 2015 First Round pick seems disingenous.

 

Umm, they could have had it. What's so hard to understand about this? You say it could have been around the 1st round pick plus for MCW but that Phoenix wouldn't want to do that deal. So once again, why would we need Philly involved to get that pick?

 

The Suns obviously wanted Brandon Knight and that's all they got. They didn't need Philly in this deal, we were the ones who got them involved for whatever reason.

 

So yes, I am stating matter of factly that they could have gotten the Lakers pick for Knight because it should be freaking obvious to everyone that they could have. It's obvious that they wanted MCW instead of the pick. My question to that is why based on what I've seen from MCW and where I think that Lakers pick will end up.

 

I'm glad we're not paying Knight, I'm glad we were able to get Ennis and Plumlee back for him. I absolutely despise that the Lakers pick was sent to Philly for MCW.

[Outlander]

I agree with you that they could have had the pick but it is highly likely MCW ends up better than that pick. Picks are overvalued by too many.

[tmwiese55]

your logic is sound that we could've had that pick. However, the phrasing about how bad MCW is seems a little much? He won ROY of the year last year and was in a terrible situation. Shooting can be taught, regardless his job is going to be to attack and distribute. Guys like Westbrook and Rose can't shoot from deep either, their FG% looks better because there not in disaster situations and not forced to take endless deep contested 2 pt shots.

 

And from what I've read I don't think MKE would've done the deal just for that Lakers pick, reports are that the main reason behind all of this is Kidd loves MCW. Two more years of control before making a decision on money with him and apparently Kidd really thinks MCW is for real. I guess we kind of have to trust his take on PGs.

 

I think someone pointed out that we're not getting the Lakers pick this year as they're going to be in the top. You're then banking on them being bottom 6-7 bad again next year to make it worth it. Have to think they'll add players next year and approach .500, this is the Lakers, they're not going to suck for long. They might strike out again in free agency but I wouldn't bank on it.

[superfly]

this is the Lakers, they're not going to suck for long. They might strike out again in free agency but I wouldn't bank on it.

 

 

I predict Kobe takes a huge pay cut and they go absolutely nuts in free agency. Kobe's words are pretty telling from recently...he wants to finish his career like Duncan and the Spurs are doing. Unless they do some massive acquiring that isn't happening.

[Boomer5]

MCW has been brutal on the offensive end, brilliant on defense. The bottom line is Kidd loves him so thats his guy. Kidd has taken us this far, so he deserves the benefit of the doubt here.

 

The Lakers pick could have been perhaps the 6th pick this year or the 4th pick next year. OR....it could be the 20th pick next year based on FA and the Lakers spending like, well, the Lakers?

 

Knight, who was much better on the box score than using advanced metrics, was going to lose a lot of asset value once he signed his next deal, so the Bucks made an excellent trade. A rebounding center, and two young cheap PG's for Kidd to coach and build around our core players.

[Boomer5]

No, that's not how it works. Milwaukee was never in possession of that asset. It's nice speculation, but we don't know that to be true. I don't know that I would have wanted the Lakers pick in 2016, Ennis, Plumlee for Brandon Knight. (It appears the Lakers can't fall any further than 7th in the lottery for the 4th worst record and getting 6th or 7th odds are less than 10%, so they likely keep that pick in 2015.) Why give up an asset in Knight for some mid 1st-rounder in 2016 that likely won't contribute significantly until 2018, if at all? Instead, they got an immediate asset.

 

Sure, they weren't actually in possession of the asset but they could've been. That's the point I was making. By just cutting Philly out, that pick could've been theirs. And yeah, they probably wouldn't get the pick this year but it's only top 3 protected for the next 2 years and unprotected in 2018.

 

You think the Lakers are going to have a mid 1st round pick next year? To me they're almost a guaranteed lottery team. At best I think they're 11th in the Western Conference. I'll take that gamble all day long, especially when the other gamble is a player as bad as MCW.

 

The Bucks weren't going to make that trade without getting back a starting PG who could play D. We all know MCW's offensive advanced stats, but for whatever reason, Kidd wanted him. So that was that. He didn't want the Lakers pick so it was never going to be LAL Pick plus two young guys for Knight.

 

As for the Lakers pick, we went from 15 wins to 30 at ASB, so given the Lakers check book, anything is possible.

 

If you want to feel better, remember we turned Jennings into Middleton, MCW, Ennis, and Plumlee. Id say we won this.

[tmwiese55]

Another thing to feel better about. Supposedly PHX wanted to give us Dragic in this deal rather than MCW and we turned it down. Past Bucks regimes would've done the trade for Dragic and then watched him leave as a FA after the season while we're left holding our d**k.

 

My gut on this was to not like it but as I've thought and read about I think it was a good move for the long term. Again, compared to past regimes who would be all jacked up to get the #7 seed and lose in the first round, this group is looking at the big picture and trying to build a real championship contender 3-4 years from now.

[Jenkins5]

There are a few random things I have read on here that just make zero sense

 

1) "for as bad as MCW has been"

 

Are you kidding me? He plays on the only team in NBA history whose whole goal is to lose every single game and despite that he is averaging 16/7/7....yeah just terrible.... The fact it is possible to even be able to average 7 assist a game on a team that horrid is unbelievable. Not to forget he is nearly out rebounding Nerlins Noel, which means he just flies around and uses length as PG to do so.

 

If your talking about his shooting, guy can't shoot, who the heck cares? That's not his job on the Bucks. He was forced to shot on 76ers cause they had zero other options. Jason Kidd could barely shot until late in career. Is he not a future first ballot hall of famer cause he couldn't shot? MCW will never be asked to carry an offensive load ever in Milwaukee. That's what Parker, Middleton, Giannis are suppose to do.

 

Last if being rated the 2nd best defensive PG in all the NBA is bad....what is good enough?

 

2) The Bucks would have NOT traded for that pick!!! They loved Knight, the turned down Dragic for him. They wanted MCW, get over it. Suns wanted Knight. Bucks wanted a PG of future who was under contract for while and fit the scheme offensively and defensively. 76ers just want picks. If the Bucks had any interest in trading Knight for Ennis,Plumlee, and the Lakers protected pick, they would have done it. They weren't motivated to trade Knight.

 

My guess is Suns wanted Knight, Bucks turned down Dragic and told them Ennis and Plumlee are not enough. If 2 teams can't make it work with what they want, they look outside to a third team. Bucks prob said they are interested in MCW, suns contacted 76ers to see if he was available, they said yes for a 1st round pick....suns the would come back and say we are able to include MCW with Ennis, Plumlee.... Bucks then agree cause they get there guy and young pieces for future

[Jenkins5]

With this trade, Bucks stay competitive at a playoff level but have more depth now. They lose scoring but we have a real pass first point guard to build around who is excellent on defensive end. Ennis could be a good energy PG off bench and Plumlee is a big guy who is solid depth and will get minutes.

 

I really liked Knight, the teams chemistry but he was going to require 12-14 million aft this season and really is not a great defender, he isn't a true fit to the offense, and his vision/natural instincts lack. MCW just fits much better

[lcbj68c]

"I think someone pointed out that we're not getting the Lakers pick this year as they're going to be in the top. You're then banking on them being bottom 6-7 bad again next year to make it worth it. Have to think they'll add players next year and approach .500, this is the Lakers, they're not going to suck for long. They might strike out again in free agency but I wouldn't bank on it."

 

This...I want nothing to do with that middle 1st rounder in 2016. Honestly, even if you get extremely lucky and it's a #6 overall in 2015, I don't want to bank on the Bucks actually hitting on that pick. For these reasons, the Bucks having a "bird in the hand" wasn't even close with regards to the Lakers pick, let alone an asset worth lamenting over "losing".

[Jenkins5]

Kidd said tonight he sees the potential in MCW, and wants to help get him to Magic level....as it had been rumored, MCW was Kidds guy and you can bet he a big part in getting this trade done... Kidd's guy wasn't a future 1st round pick....

[superfly]

And the train just keeps rolling. Sure the Nuggets are not good, but we were shorthanded. I love this team.

[trwi7]

Are you kidding me? He plays on the only team in NBA history whose whole goal is to lose every single game and despite that he is averaging 16/7/7....yeah just terrible....

 

With 4 turnovers and some of the worst efficiency in the league. He may improve with us, it would be difficult to be any worse but it's a huge gamble trading that Lakers pick for him and that's essentially what we did.

[Jenkins5]

Are you kidding me? He plays on the only team in NBA history whose whole goal is to lose every single game and despite that he is averaging 16/7/7....yeah just terrible....

 

With 4 turnovers and some of the worst efficiency in the league. He may improve with us, it would be difficult to be any worse but it's a huge gamble trading that Lakers pick for him and that's essentially what we did.

 

There is absolutely ZERO risk cause we DID NOT trade him for the Laker pick! Bucks didn't even consider that pick! Suns didn't have enough to get Knight, and Bucks wanted MCW NOT the 1st round pick!!!! I don't understand why you are so focused on this pick that the Suns didn't care about, the Bucks didn't care about nor did the Lakers! There is little chance Lakers pick won't be in top 5 since they are awful. Okafor and Towns won't make it to #6 even if we got that pick.

 

Real breakdown of the 3 team trade:

Step 1: 76ers trade MCW for 1st Rounder

Step 2: flip MCW with Ennis and Plumlee to get the man you want in Knight

 

Not the way trade worked:

Bucks trade Knight for 1st round pick, Ennis, Plumlee

Bucks flip 1st round pick to 76ers

 

The whole point

1) Suns wanted Knight

2)Suns didn't have enough or the PG Bucks want in order to part with Knight

3)Suns had the means to get MCW into deal in order to get Knight

 

Bucks

1) Bucks love Knight and are not motivated to move him

2) turn down Dragic for Knight cause they want a PG of future in order to trade knight

3) Suns found a way to get Bucks their PG of future in order to get Knight

4) Bucks decided to build for future while adding young depth

5) Bucks weren't going to trade him for that pick cause it leaves huge whole at PG, doesn't help make team better, pick is protected by awful team. Hurts team. A future 6-14 pick has zero guarantee of producing at all. Why trade away your key player, hurt chemistry, and chances of winning when your 30-23 and growing to get a 6-14 pick next year?

 

None of the 1st round pick trade talk makes any sense to me.... We aren't in suck for the future more. We don't need a 6-14 pick to excite the fan base if we even get that pick this season, large percent chance we don't... If Nick Young and Jeremy Lin are your two franchise star players.... Your not drafting outside of top 5

[trwi7]

There is absolutely ZERO risk cause we DID NOT trade him for the Laker pick!

 

Yes, yes they did. They traded Knight for the two Suns players and the pick. That pick was then traded for MCW. I don't care whether or not they wanted it or wanted MCW more. The point is, they could've had it and they should've kept it. If you want MCW, that's fine, offer our own pick for him. Offer our pick and Ennis. Just don't say, here take this likely lottery pick for him. Negotiate a little. If you can't agree to a deal now, revisit it in the offseason. There's no rush.

 

Real breakdown of the 3 team trade:

Step 1: 76ers trade MCW for 1st Rounder

Step 2: flip MCW with Ennis and Plumlee to get the man you want in Knight

 

Except if that's the way it went down, somebody in the media would've said that. You're just rationalizing at this point.

 

We are the ones who brought Philly into the conversation. Knight for Ennis, Plumlee and the Lakers pick gets done without the Sixers because the only players the Suns received came from us. That's my whole point. This really shouldn't be that hard to understand but so many people are having trouble understanding it or just rationalizing it because they realize how bad the Lakers pick for MCW is value wise.

 

Honestly. When we got involved in the discussions, whenever that may have been and we found out that the Suns were willing to trade that pick for Knight, why are we not immediately accepted? Tell the Suns to just cut the Sixers out of the deal. The Suns didn't need them in the deal anyways, since they got nothing from them. Are you telling me that the Suns would then decline the trade because the Lakers pick would be going to us instead of the Sixers?

 

You may not think we wanted the pick. You may not think we ever had the pick. My point the whole time has been that we could have had the pick and that is indisputable.

[Jenkins5]

We could have had the pick, however, that pick 1) is a 6-14 pick at best in this years draft.. 2)Most likely won't be received until 2016. By then if they add some weapons ( which they can, they are still LA Lakers), get healthy (Randell & Limited Kobe)and add Okafor/Towns/Mudiay/ or Russell, that pick may not even be a lottery but a late teen, early twenty pick.

 

Next what does that pick do to help us now, tomorrow, or for the future? We just would have traded our top player on a team that is growing and winning for 2 role players and a possible mid to late lottery pick in 2015 or maybe non lottery pick in 2016? Yeah smart way to build a team.... Ask 76ers how that kind of brilliant approach has worked out.

 

Clearly you do not realize that MCW IS the PG Kidd wants to build around and the guy he wanted. They are building for now and the future and MCW fits Kidds style and scheme perfect. When your 30-23 and cruising, your not going to sell off your best player for a protected pick. Bayliss is good but he is a off the bench spark combo guard. Ennis had played in 8 NBA games. Marshall was hurt and traded, Wolters Cut. You would have killed all excitement for Bucks basketball if u say a protected pick is more important than the season and the future. The bust rate on picks 6-14 are extremely high.... A rookie of the year, all defensive team caliber player, seems like much better return in the now and future.

 

Turnovers happen at a high rate when you are a PG on a awful team. When you have the ball in your hand every play and you have to force everything to stand a chance, that's not a good situation. However his finishing at the rim, assists, rebounding, length, vision, pass first, great defender style out weighs that he turned ball over and forced too many shot trying to create and win on a awful team.

[trwi7]

That's all I'm looking for is for you to agree that the pick was available to us. Obviously it's a risk. The Lakers could drop to 6th this year and that pick would be awesome. They could win it this year, sign a bunch of free agents and win 55 games next year even though I think that's highly unlikely. I don't think that pick is any riskier than MCW though and would be willing to take a chance that it turns into a better asset.

 

I understand Kidd wanted MCW. What I don't understand is waiting a little bit longer. They could've offered Ennis and our pick for him. Maybe they did and Philly declined but they should've been patient. If they decline, then you move on and wait until after the season to try again. Explore any combo of players and picks without Giannis, Parker or the Lakers pick to see if you can get a deal done. Then if you can't and still really want MCW, go ahead and trade the pick for him.

 

Like I said, I'm fine with the deal overall. I'm glad we're not going to be paying Knight and I'm glad we got 3 solid young assets. I just think they went ahead and gave a potentially great asset away too quick.

[Jenkins5]

See I just don't see the risk with MCW, worse case he is a 6'6 PG who will give you great defense, rebound at a high clip, spread the ball around and prob average around 12/6/6 at least. On this team. Kid can play, now it's erasing the bad norms developed by the 76ers.

 

That protect pick wouldn't excite me at all. We need a C or PG(if we didn't get MCW). The ; impact ones will all but for be gone in top 5. Okafor, Towns, Russell, Mudiay won't drop. Not giving up Knight for Cauly-Stein, Myles Turner (needs about 40lbs of muscle put on minimum) and all the other PGs are not lottery picks of at least anyone to be excited about

[superfly]

That's all I'm looking for is for you to agree that the pick was available to us. Obviously it's a risk. The Lakers could drop to 6th this year and that pick would be awesome. They could win it this year, sign a bunch of free agents and win 55 games next year even though I think that's highly unlikely. I don't think that pick is any riskier than MCW though and would be willing to take a chance that it turns into a better asset.

 

I understand Kidd wanted MCW. What I don't understand is waiting a little bit longer. They could've offered Ennis and our pick for him. Maybe they did and Philly declined but they should've been patient. If they decline, then you move on and wait until after the season to try again. Explore any combo of players and picks without Giannis, Parker or the Lakers pick to see if you can get a deal done. Then if you can't and still really want MCW, go ahead and trade the pick for him.

 

Like I said, I'm fine with the deal overall. I'm glad we're not going to be paying Knight and I'm glad we got 3 solid young assets. I just think they went ahead and gave a potentially great asset away too quick.

 

MCW is already one of the top defensive guards in the entire league. That was within a system that was designed to fail, no defense, no offense. You're telling me that one of the top defensive guards in the league (WITHOUT EVEN PLAYING IN A DEFENSIVE SYSTEM) at 2-4 million dollars for 3 or 4 years is not a good deal? That doesn't even include his rebounding and assist abilities, nor his penchant to finish in the lane.

 

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/1

 

Carter-Williams is a walking triple double waiting to happen, and that's the fact. Kidd couldn't shoot either most of his career, that doesn't matter as long as you have snipers like Danny Green, Middleton etc for him to kick to when he penetrates the lane. Bucks have said over and over again they are modeling the team after the Spurs, this just reinforces it once again.

[BrewBalls]

Are you kidding me? He plays on the only team in NBA history whose whole goal is to lose every single game and despite that he is averaging 16/7/7....yeah just terrible....

 

With 4 turnovers and some of the worst efficiency in the league. He may improve with us, it would be difficult to be any worse but it's a huge gamble trading that Lakers pick for him and that's essentially what we did.

The same things were said when we acquired Knight. Knight was forced to create his own shot while still being young, inexperienced with little to none real coaching. I trust Kidd's opinion more than mine or anyone else's on Brewerfan and will assume MCW can improve under the tutelage of Kidd similar to how Knight was able to. MCW definitely isn't the offensive player Knight is but is a better defender and facilitator whihc it appears Kidd is looking for in his PG going forward. The fact we were able to flip 1/2 season of Knight for 3 younger, cost controlled assets is a testiment to this new Bucks regime. I'm more excited about the future of this team today than I was before the trade.

[BrewBalls]

These are the players most mock drafts and big boards have listed in the 6-10 range:

Myles Turner (C/PF)

Mario Hezonja (SG/SF)

Kristaps Prozingis (PF)

Willie Cauley Stien ©

Kelly Oubre (SF)

Kevon Looney (SF/PF)

Justise Winslow (SG/SF).

 

None of these guys seem likely to have a bigger impact than MCW next season. This still leaves the Bucks without a PG unless they signa free agent or draft one with their own pick. This means the Bucks are convinced one of the following are capable of leading this team as a rookie:

Tyus Jones

Terry Rozier

Isaiah Taylor

Jerian Grant

Delon Wright

Marcus Paige

 

Although all but Jones and Paige are considered more combo guards than true point guards. Personally, I'm not excited about any of these options as much as I am for MCW. His ceiling is still pretty high for a second year player.

[patrickgpe]

I hope MCW can suit up this afternoon. I am really looking forward to seeing him in a bucks uniforms. They haven't had a true passing pg since Terrell Brandon. Really looking forward to have one of the most athletic and largest starting lineups in the league now.

[tmwiese55]

I agree with those saying they like MCW better than a pick in the teens two years from now. I think this is the logic and it makes sense to me. if we take the Lakers pick instead of MCW: first off it's a kick to the fans that we're not trying the rest of this season. Second, it's almost a lock we won't get that pick until 2016, yes there's a chance it will be #4 or 5 but more likely to be between say 9-17. Regardless, at that point you have to wait on a year or two of development from that guy before he's really ready to contribute to a winning team (that's assuming he pans out, which he might not). So now we're up to 2018-19 before he can contribute? Instead we get a guy that's ready to play right now (well, whenever he's healthy) who is cost controlled but just needs to learn to shoot. The turnovers and efficiency problems should be easily cleared up by not playing in a disaster situation. I think they love that he's 6'6 so on defense they'll be able to switch positions 1-4 on D. That's why they chose MCW over that draft pick and I agree with it.

[Boomer5]

That's all I'm looking for is for you to agree that the pick was available to us. Obviously it's a risk. The Lakers could drop to 6th this year and that pick would be awesome. They could win it this year, sign a bunch of free agents and win 55 games next year even though I think that's highly unlikely. I don't think that pick is any riskier than MCW though and would be willing to take a chance that it turns into a better asset.

 

I understand Kidd wanted MCW. What I don't understand is waiting a little bit longer. They could've offered Ennis and our pick for him. Maybe they did and Philly declined but they should've been patient. If they decline, then you move on and wait until after the season to try again. Explore any combo of players and picks without Giannis, Parker or the Lakers pick to see if you can get a deal done. Then if you can't and still really want MCW, go ahead and trade the pick for him.

 

Like I said, I'm fine with the deal overall. I'm glad we're not going to be paying Knight and I'm glad we got 3 solid young assets. I just think they went ahead and gave a potentially great asset away too quick.

 

Kidd targeted him, so that was going to be his guy. The pick was available to the Bucks, but they (meaning Kidd) preferred MCW.

 

If MCW shows the kind of improvement in the last 20 or so games + the play offs that Knight showed post Kidd, then the Bucks could flip him for better than the Lakers pick.