Bad news for the Cardinals: Wacha & Garcia to the DL

[Roderick]

They scored 20 runs in the 3 game Rockies series, leaving the fans to wonder: is it real, or is it Coors field?

 

itsd Coors field

 

I would add something about the Rockies pitching staff also, but we are still playing them, so all I will say is that they are really good.

[MadScientist]

They scored 20 runs in the 3 game Rockies series, leaving the fans to wonder: is it real, or is it Coors field?

 

itsd Coors field

 

I would add something about the Rockies pitching staff also, but we are still playing them, so all I will say is that they are really good.

 

Colorado played shaky defense over last weekend, and had 3 errors in the series against the Cards (didn't watch so I can't say if there were any non-called errors). They played better last night.

 

Stl looks like it had a post Coors hitting hangover against the Dodgers last night. Hopefully that will last for a few games.

[logan82]

LA, San Francisco, And Petco are all tough parks to hit on. The NL west except for Coors

[owbc]

It's starting to look like Cincinnati has the best chance to catch the Brewers.

[Dead Simmons]

It's starting to look like Cincinnati has the best chance to catch the Brewers.

I couldn't agree more. I can't figure out what's holding them back. Reds fans criticize Walt Jockety for not going out and getting top dollar free agents. They don't seem to understand the man has a set budget. The guy was not cheap filling up the holes on the Cards' roster when he was the GM in St. Louis.

 

But they made a move I liked the other day batting Votto 2nd behind Billy Hamilton. You HAVE to have a good and selective batsman up there when he's on base. Hamilton may put them over the top. (but when?)

 

[DuWayne Steurer]

The funny thing is listening to the criticism Votto gets for 'taking too many walks' from the fans (and some posters), and not driving in enough runs. A guy who gets on base at over .400 clip (as he's done for each of the last 6 years is ultra-valuable, and producing runs, regardless of what the RBI stat might tell you.

 

EDIT: I think Hamilton is poorly suited (at this point) to be a leadoff man. 13 walks in 295 PA's is pretty poor. The SB's are great, but he needs to get on base more. Granted, he's 23, so that's a skill he can come into, and if he does he can be a great one.

[Thurston Fluff]

The funny thing is listening to the criticism Votto gets for 'taking too many walks' from the fans (and some posters), and not driving in enough runs. A guy who gets on base at over .400 clip (as he's done for each of the last 6 years is ultra-valuable, and producing runs, regardless of what the RBI stat might tell you.

 

Being valuable and being a value are two different things. OBP costs more than it used to. Votto at $12 million is still a deal but you expect more than just getting on base for that much. What is weird about his case is he still does more than just get on base. I think what is happening is his overall production went down the last couple seasons and his SLG went down more than his OBP has so it became the focal point.

[Dead Simmons]

I think the Cards can be officially removed from consideration for post season play. Lance Lynn has a blister on a finger on his pitching hand, and knowing Matheny and the witch doctors he will be sent back out before the skin heals and re-toughens.

 

That leaves poor #5 Shelby Miller as the only completely healthy starter, and HE has been awful. I look for he and Allen Craig to be part of deal made before the deadline. The Cards' GM is under heavy fire and will surely do it sooner rather than later, but it's already too late.

 

So that's one down and two to go for you guys. Reds and Pirates, both on the move up. It's going to be some kind of finish come September.

[JohnBriggs12]

I think the Cards can be officially removed from consideration for post season play. Lance Lynn has a blister on a finger on his pitching hand, and knowing Matheny and the witch doctors he will be sent back out before the skin heals and re-toughens.

 

That leaves poor #5 Shelby Miller as the only completely healthy starter, and HE has been awful. I look for he and Allen Craig to be part of deal made before the deadline. The Cards' GM is under heavy fire and will surely do it sooner rather than later, but it's already too late.

 

So that's one down and two to go for you guys. Reds and Pirates, both on the move up. It's going to be some kind of finish come September.

 

I don't see either the Reds or Pirates as that big of threats. Pirates rotation isn't nearly what it was last year, and even with Polanco, who has all of 3 extra base hits in 80 ABs, their lineup doesn't compare with the Brewers. As for Reds, does anyone really believe 33 year old mostly career minor leaguer/middle reliever like Alfredo Simon can repeat his first half? Reds will certainly be in the wild card mix, with that awesome back end of the bullpen of Broxton and Chapman, but if the Brewers stay healthy, I don't see the Reds making up 7 games.

[torts]

I think the Cards can be officially removed from consideration for post season play. Lance Lynn has a blister on a finger on his pitching hand, and knowing Matheny and the witch doctors he will be sent back out before the skin heals and re-toughens.

 

That leaves poor #5 Shelby Miller as the only completely healthy starter, and HE has been awful. I look for he and Allen Craig to be part of deal made before the deadline. The Cards' GM is under heavy fire and will surely do it sooner rather than later, but it's already too late.

 

So that's one down and two to go for you guys. Reds and Pirates, both on the move up. It's going to be some kind of finish come September.

 

I don't see either the Reds or Pirates as that big of threats. Pirates rotation isn't nearly what it was last year, and even with Polanco, who has all of 3 extra base hits in 80 ABs, their lineup doesn't compare with the Brewers. As for Reds, does anyone really believe 33 year old mostly career minor leaguer/middle reliever like Alfredo Simon can repeat his first half? Reds will certainly be in the wild card mix, with that awesome back end of the bullpen of Broxton and Chapman, but if the Brewers stay healthy, I don't see the Reds making up 7 games.

 

The pirates problem is they arent coming through in clutch hitting, RISP w/ 2 outs they're hitting .217/.350/.650. their pitching has actually been rather good this year considering they lost AJ Burnett, Wandy was DFA'd, Liriano and Cole have been on the DL and they've been operating with AAAA arms for the last month in Cumpton/Pimentel with a little Vanimal action thrown in there to boot. I dont think many thought Volquez would still be on the team at this point, either, but thanks to MLB injuries and TJ surgery to Tallion, he's still getting the ball every 5th day. The pitching has kept them in games, their bats have just let them down. they're 19-15 in one run games

[gregmag]

I think the Cards can be officially removed from consideration for post season play. Lance Lynn has a blister on a finger on his pitching hand, and knowing Matheny and the witch doctors he will be sent back out before the skin heals and re-toughens.

 

That leaves poor #5 Shelby Miller as the only completely healthy starter, and HE has been awful. I look for he and Allen Craig to be part of deal made before the deadline. The Cards' GM is under heavy fire and will surely do it sooner rather than later, but it's already too late.

 

So that's one down and two to go for you guys. Reds and Pirates, both on the move up. It's going to be some kind of finish come September.

 

I don't see either the Reds or Pirates as that big of threats. Pirates rotation isn't nearly what it was last year, and even with Polanco, who has all of 3 extra base hits in 80 ABs, their lineup doesn't compare with the Brewers. As for Reds, does anyone really believe 33 year old mostly career minor leaguer/middle reliever like Alfredo Simon can repeat his first half? Reds will certainly be in the wild card mix, with that awesome back end of the bullpen of Broxton and Chapman, but if the Brewers stay healthy, I don't see the Reds making up 7 games.

I don't know if I'd write them off so quickly. They were without Latos for quite a while and Votto for a little while. They have at least some strength in every aspect of the game -- offense, defense, starters, pen. Also, they've tended to play very well against us, which could allow them to make up a lot of ground in a hurry.

 

I'm not writing off the Cardinals either. They have all the assets they need to trade for whatever they need. They have a few bats that could heat up. The reports on Wacha are very ambiguous, because his condition is tricky to treat, but he could be back for much of the season. Lynn should be okay, and Miller could get on a roll at any time. As long as they have Wainwright, they have enough talent around him to make a run.

[Dead Simmons]

Rotation update: No word on Lynn's blister. Kelly still a month away. Waino's fastball is gone, but he made it by on guile in his last start. Wacha won't return for 6 or more weeks. Shelby Miller continues to get pounded.

 

Oscar Tavares was recalled and started last night in CF. (one sharp hit) The Cards are desperate for more offense.

[HiAndTight]

I think the Cards can be officially removed from consideration for post season play. Lance Lynn has a blister on a finger on his pitching hand, and knowing Matheny and the witch doctors he will be sent back out before the skin heals and re-toughens.

 

That leaves poor #5 Shelby Miller as the only completely healthy starter, and HE has been awful. I look for he and Allen Craig to be part of deal made before the deadline. The Cards' GM is under heavy fire and will surely do it sooner rather than later, but it's already too late.

 

So that's one down and two to go for you guys. Reds and Pirates, both on the move up. It's going to be some kind of finish come September.

 

I don't see either the Reds or Pirates as that big of threats. Pirates rotation isn't nearly what it was last year, and even with Polanco, who has all of 3 extra base hits in 80 ABs, their lineup doesn't compare with the Brewers. As for Reds, does anyone really believe 33 year old mostly career minor leaguer/middle reliever like Alfredo Simon can repeat his first half? Reds will certainly be in the wild card mix, with that awesome back end of the bullpen of Broxton and Chapman, but if the Brewers stay healthy, I don't see the Reds making up 7 games.

 

The pirates problem is they arent coming through in clutch hitting, RISP w/ 2 outs they're hitting .217/.350/.650. their pitching has actually been rather good this year considering they lost AJ Burnett, Wandy was DFA'd, Liriano and Cole have been on the DL and they've been operating with AAAA arms for the last month in Cumpton/Pimentel with a little Vanimal action thrown in there to boot. I dont think many thought Volquez would still be on the team at this point, either, but thanks to MLB injuries and TJ surgery to Tallion, he's still getting the ball every 5th day. The pitching has kept them in games, their bats have just let them down. they're 19-15 in one run games

 

 

They rank 22nd in starters ERA and 14th with RISP w/2 outs.

[HiAndTight]

You'll have to take it up with my source, Tim Mc Carver.

 

There's your problem. Didn't he do the world a favor and retire last year?

 

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/COL/COL201406250.shtml

 

Actually the problem is that you only gave BBref about 10 minutes to update the player stats.

[Dead Simmons]

This news is neither good nor bad for the Cards. It just is: Jaime Garcia has the same thoracic shoulder that ended Chris Carpenter's career.

 

http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/stltoday.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/9/c0/9c03abba-b3c9-50a6-b69d-bb3a5253528b/53b83461d3bd9.preview-300.jpg

 

But it wouldn't surprise me if they make him a position player. Look at the time we wasted with Rick Ankiel.

[TooLiveBrew]

This news is neither good nor bad for the Cards. It just is: Jaime Garcia has the same thoracic shoulder that ended Chris Carpenter's career.

I... I'm going to go out on a limb and say that that is actually bad news for the Cards.

[3and2Fastball]

That leaves poor #5 Shelby Miller as the only completely healthy starter, and HE has been awful. I look for he and Allen Craig to be part of deal made before the deadline. The Cards' GM is under heavy fire and will surely do it sooner rather than later, but it's already too late.

 

Why would the Cardinals trade Allen Craig? (or Miller). Craig is under contract through 2017 with a team option for '18. Sure he's having an off year (still hitting LHP well though) but he has a proven track record and is only 29 years old

[Dead Simmons]

That leaves poor #5 Shelby Miller as the only completely healthy starter, and HE has been awful. I look for he and Allen Craig to be part of deal made before the deadline. The Cards' GM is under heavy fire and will surely do it sooner rather than later, but it's already too late.

 

Why would the Cardinals trade Allen Craig? (or Miller). Craig is under contract through 2017 with a team option for '18. Sure he's having an off year (still hitting LHP well though) but he has a proven track record and is only 29 years old

Two things Fastball: 1) Tavares is 22.... 2) Craig's power has been gone for 2 years. That's no slump.

[torts]

Cards have interest in Peavy!

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2014/07/cardinals-have-interest-in-jake-peavy.html

 

12:45pm: ESPN’s Jayson Stark is now also hearing that the Cardinals are interested in Peavy, and he hears that something could come together quickly (Twitter link). The only Red Sox game that the Cards have scouted was the Peavy start that Edes originally referenced, according to Stark.

 

12:01pm: The Cardinals have had their share of pitching injuries of late, with Jaime Garcia out for the season and Michael Wacha out indefinitely, and Gordon Edes of ESPNBoston.com tweeted yesterday that the team scouted Jake Peavy‘s most recent start for the Red Sox. Peter Gammons also tweets that he’s hearing the Redbirds have interest in Peavy.

 

The 33-year-old Peavy has struggled, to an extent, this season in what has been one of the least-effective campaigns of his 13-year career. He’s posted a 4.64 ERA with 6.8 K/9, 3.4 BB/9 and a 39.2 percent ground-ball rate. His 89.9 mph average fastball velocity is the lowest mark he’s posted since his rookie campaign in 2002. He’s been healthy, however, and has averaged more than six innings per start this season. A move to the NL, of course, could help his numbers as well.

 

Then again, Peavy wouldn’t need to do much to be an upgrade to the back of the St. Louis rotation. With their current injuries, the Cardinals are using a rotation of ace Adam Wainwright and right-handers Lance Lynn, Shelby Miller and Carlos Martinez (with Joe Kelly set to come off the DL in the next few days). Miller has seen his control disappear, along with his ability to miss bats, and he’s posted a 5.50 ERA over his past nine starts as a result. Martinez has pitched well since transitioning from the bullpen, but he threw just 108 innings last year and is already at 53 in 2014. Marco Gonzales, the club’s 2013 first-rounder, served up 11 runs with more walks than strikeouts in a three-start cameo recently. Peavy could serve as a durable back-end piece to complement veterans Wainwright, Lynn and Kelly while serving as an insurance policy for the club’s younger arms.

 

Peavy is earning $14.5MM this season and has a vesting player option that he won’t trigger. That option, valued at $15MM, required that Peavy pitch 400 innings from 2013-14, but he is still 144 2/3 frames shy of that mark after spending time on the DL last season. As such, he’s owed roughly $6.58MM over the remainder of the 2014 campaign and will be a free agent at year’s end.

 

As Edes points out, this isn’t the first time that the Cardinals have had interest in Peavy. The team expressed interest in the former NL Cy Young winner last summer. The Boston Globe’s Nick Cafardo reported over the weekend that Peavy could be of interest to some NL clubs if Boston were to eat some of the remaining salary on his deal.

[reillymcshane]

Interesting to see the team take Jaime Garcia to task publicly for how has handled his injury.

 

http://www.si.com/mlb/2014/07/07/st-louis-cardinals-jaime-garcia-john-mozeliak-thoracic-outlet-syndrome

[Fear The Chorizo]

The plethora of young Cardinal arms who seemed poised to dominate the division for years seem to have all run into a wall in 2014. Guaranteed that nobody figured the Cardinals would be desperate for starting pitching help at this year's trade deadline. No question the young pitching they have is talented, but health and making adjustments to your game while facing big league hitters are common pitfalls that have claimed more than their fair share of promising arms over the years.

 

As for Allen Craig, he's very quickly running out of positions to play everyday in STL, and they probably could get some value in return for trading him to the right team now. To me Craig shouldn't be in the Cards' longterm plans, and I think he fits better into an AL lineup as a DH and utility 1B/OF in a hitter friendly park...come to think of it Boston makes a good deal of sense, so if a Peavy deal comes together look for him to be included along with lower level pitching prospect or two.

[TooLiveBrew]

Interesting to see the team take Jaime Garcia to task publicly for how has handled his injury.

 

http://www.si.com/mlb/2014/07/07/st-louis-cardinals-jaime-garcia-john-mozeliak-thoracic-outlet-syndrome

Not really surprising at all. Classless organization.

[TheCrew07]

The plethora of young Cardinal arms who seemed poised to dominate the division for years seem to have all run into a wall in 2014.

 

That's a bit over the top. Injuries to pitchers are going to happen, the only disappointment is Miller and this isn't the first time in his career that his control disappeared.

 

Martinez is only 22 and is sporting a 3.91 ERA with a K/9 of 7.8, I'd take that in a heart beat. Wacha put up 2.79 ERA in his 15 starts so far this season, yes he's hurt, but he'll be back. Gonzales is a finesse lefty but he'll likely up being a nice back of the rotation type like Garcia before him. Gonzales made the jump all the way from AA, that's a tall order for any pitcher, but especially one without "stuff". Alex Reyes and Rob Kaminsky are the next 2 young guns coming through. Reyes profiles like a #2 and is probably a 2017 debut guy at the earliest, Kaminsky like a #3 with a similar debut season.

 

I'd definitely swap the 23 year old Miller who has given up 49 runs so far this season for the 30 year old Estrada who has have given up 60 and not even think twice. If it doesn't work out for Miller at least you have a power arm option for the bullpen.

 

Last but not least let's not forget 24 year old Trevor Rosenthal and 25 year old Seth Maness who are anchoring the bullpen.

 

They have plenty of youth performing very well.

[Fear The Chorizo]

I'm not saying all the Cardinal arms are going to wash out...simply stating that 2014 hasn't gone at all like expected for many of these pitchers, whether injury or underperformances were the main culprits. I'm fully aware the talent is still there, but baseball has a way of taking young pitching talent and giving organizations headaches trying to keep it healthy and productive over the long haul. Wacha's shoulder injury sounds less than encouraging for his longterm health before a signficant injury pops up. Martinez has all the stuff in the world, but doesn't have the innings built up on his arm to expect him to stay strong well into September as a starter.

 

Not sure I get the Estrada to Miller comparison...pretty much any sane person would take Miller if given the choice between the two.

[HiAndTight]

I'm not saying all the Cardinal arms are going to wash out...simply stating that 2014 hasn't gone at all like expected for many of these pitchers, whether injury or underperformances were the main culprits. I'm fully aware the talent is still there, but baseball has a way of taking young pitching talent and giving organizations headaches trying to keep it healthy and productive over the long haul. Wacha's shoulder injury sounds less than encouraging for his longterm health before a signficant injury pops up. Martinez has all the stuff in the world, but doesn't have the innings built up on his arm to expect him to stay strong well into September as a starter.

 

Not sure I get the Estrada to Miller comparison...pretty much any sane person would take Miller if given the choice between the two.

 

Yeah, I don't think your comment that they've run into a wall is over the top in the slightest. Everyone was raving about this embarassment of riches with all these young front line pitchers who were young and throw in the mid 90's to go with several other pitchers who were established. Wacha is hurt(and he may be coming back at some point, but it's a shoulder injury, so that point may be well down the road and he might not be the same) Carlos Martinez and Shelby Miller were both elite prospects that have stalled.

 

And yes, I'd take a young power arm over Estrada. But was anyone talking about how Estrada was one of the Brewers 8-9 young power pitchers who were going to help them dominate for the near future last year? Of course not, so I don't see how that's relevant.

 

I also think the Crew is overwhelmingly positive when it comes to opposing teams prospects, but a bit reserved when it comes to ours. He assigns the #2 ceiling pretty loosely to the Cards farm hands where he has Nelson as a middle of the rotation innings eater whom he's disliked a great deal up until recently(though still has him pegged as a #3).

 

 

So they may have plenty of youth performing well. They are not however performing NEARLY as well as was expected at coming into the season and things have gone about as poorly for them as they could have.