Bad news for the Cardinals: Wacha & Garcia to the DL

[Dead Simmons]

The Brewers haven't gained any ground on St. Louis in the past month and a half.

 

If I were St. Louis that would worry me more than it does us. They have played pretty well and gained zero ground.

 

It worries them alright. But the pitiful hitting is what has them in panic mode. Swapping hitters back and forth from the AAA team trying to catch lightning in a bottle. Multiple lineup experiments, the latest had Holliday moved from his usual #3 to #2 yesterday. A good idea since he's on a pace to hit 14 HR's this year. (he went O'fer)

 

The pressure from the fans and media, not to mention Matheny's fear of being fired will force some sort of significant aquisition before the trade deadline. No free agent is safe! (you guys got any?)

 

What happened to the offense? Is it just a matter of bad luck, age, injury or did they have a lot of good luck in the past and it is evening out? I looked back at past team stats and a main difference I see is they are not hitting as well with runners in scoring position. Considering they hit much better with runners in scoring position than they did overall I think perhaps they just had a bit more luck last season. I could see that make the offense look better than it really is.

 

I think you put your finger on it Thurston. Molina seems to be ageing overnight. Not only is his hitting down, he's allowing more passed balls. Craig's power outage and inconsistent RISP has me thinking steroid deprivation. I supected a lot of players that came in on La Russa's watch, David Freese being the most obvious.

 

Carpenter: I think pitchers have figured out that he won't swing the bat until he's got 2 strikes on him, so he's constantly behind in the count. He leads the team in strike outs. How a guy that hit 55 dbls and had 79 RBI leading off off is not batting 2nd or 3rd is beyond me.

 

Bourjos, Ellis, Gritchik, Tavares, Peralta and Wong all living in or heading to Mendozaville. It's these new guys more than anything else that drag scoring down. Fortunately their collective defense has been quite good or the Cards would be way more than 5.5 games out.

[Patrick425]

Baseball has indeed 'under cared about' managing LONG TERM.

 

 

You might want to look at the complete game stats that use to be posted by starting pitchers prior to the late 80's/early 90's. Also look at how many times closers pitched 2 or 3 innings during that same time period. If anything, pitchers are more "babied" now than at any time in MLB history.

[phnxcrew]

It worries them alright. But the pitiful hitting is what has them in panic mode. Swapping hitters back and forth from the AAA team trying to catch lightning in a bottle. Multiple lineup experiments, the latest had Holliday moved from his usual #3 to #2 yesterday. A good idea since he's on a pace to hit 14 HR's this year. (he went O'fer)

 

The pressure from the fans and media, not to mention Matheny's fear of being fired will force some sort of significant aquisition before the trade deadline. No free agent is safe! (you guys got any?)

 

What happened to the offense? Is it just a matter of bad luck, age, injury or did they have a lot of good luck in the past and it is evening out? I looked back at past team stats and a main difference I see is they are not hitting as well with runners in scoring position. Considering they hit much better with runners in scoring position than they did overall I think perhaps they just had a bit more luck last season. I could see that make the offense look better than it really is.

 

I think you put your finger on it Thurston. Molina seems to be ageing overnight. Not only is his hitting down, he's allowing more passed balls. Craig's power outage and inconsistent RISP has me thinking steroid deprivation. I supected a lot of players that came in on La Russa's watch, David Freese being the most obvious.

 

Carpenter: I think pitchers have figured out that he won't swing the bat until he's got 2 strikes on him, so he's constantly behind in the count. He leads the team in strike outs. How a guy that hit 55 dbls and had 79 RBI leading off off is not batting 2nd or 3rd is beyond me.

 

Bourjos, Ellis, Gritchik, Tavares, Peralta and Wong all living in or heading to Mendozaville. It's these new guys more than anything else that drag scoring down. Fortunately their collective defense has been quite good or the Cards would be way more than 5.5 games out.

 

Thank you for touching on what many fans thought of with players like freese after the ludwicks, ankiels, etc concerning larussa's well known steroid history. That brings my hatred down for cardinals fans a lot (first time I have ever heard one admit their players probably used)

[torts]

What do you base your brewer homerism and Cardinal hatred on?? I'm sure all of us would love to win the division and have the Cardinals miss the playoffs, but there is still over half a season to go...and yes, they have 2 injured starters, but the Cardinals currently hold one of the two wild card spots (by 2.5 over Atlanta), they have the 7th or 8th best winning percentage in all of baseball and are 10-4 in their last 14 games so it's not like they've been free falling or anything.

 

This next stretch should be very telling for them. This is their schedule up to the all star break:

3 @ Denver

4 @ LAD

3 @ SF

3 vs Miami

4 vs Pittsburgh

3 @ Milwaukee

 

That's about as tough as it gets (and much like our August).

 

lets not forget that they play 7 against Milwaukee in September

[Dead Simmons]

Phnxbrew said:

Thank you for touching on what many fans thought of with players like freese after the ludwicks, ankiels, etc concerning larussa's well known steroid history. That brings my hatred down for cardinals fans a lot (first time I have ever heard one admit their players probably used) End quote

 

To tell you the truth Phoenix, after the truth came out about Mc Gwire I felt fairly ashamed in the 2004 season. My god...Edmonds, Roland, Vina and Larry Walker were definitely juicing, and there was some suspicion of Pujols as well. (since verified by Jack Clark)

 

I don't doubt that La Russa held team meetings preaching the Bash Brothers' evangel. What really tore it for me was the day that little David Eckstein, choking up powered a HR to the opposite field 10 rows back!

 

I did not watch another game that year 'till the WS where Boston proved to be the far better Juicers.

[Dead Simmons]

Phnxbrew said:

Thank you for touching on what many fans thought of with players like freese after the ludwicks, ankiels, etc concerning larussa's well known steroid history. That brings my hatred down for cardinals fans a lot (first time I have ever heard one admit their players probably used) End quote

 

To tell you the truth Phoenix, after the truth came out about Mc Gwire I felt fairly ashamed in the 2004 season. My god...Edmonds, Roland, Vina and Larry Walker were definitely juicing, and I was suspicious of Pujols as well. (since verified by Jack Clark)

 

I don't doubt that La Russa held team meetings preaching the Bash Brothers' evangel. What really tore it for me was the day that little David Eckstein, choking up powered a HR to the opposite field 10 rows back!

 

I did not watch another game that year 'till the WS where Boston proved to be the far better Juicers.

[DuWayne Steurer]

To tell you the truth Phoenix, after the truth came out about Mc Gwire I felt fairly ashamed in the 2004 season. My god...Edmonds, Roland, Vina and Larry Walker were definitely juicing, and there was some suspicion of Pujols as well. (since verified by Jack Clark)

 

I don't doubt that La Russa held team meetings preaching the Bash Brothers' evangel. What really tore it for me was the day that little David Eckstein, choking up powered a HR to the opposite field 10 rows back!

 

I did not watch another game that year 'till the WS where Boston proved to be the far better Juicers.

 

 

I would say 'alleged' by Jack Clark, not 'verified'. Not that I don't think Pujols isn't juicing.....

[Dead Simmons]

To tell you the truth Phoenix, after the truth came out about Mc Gwire I felt fairly ashamed in the 2004 season. My god...Edmonds, Roland, Vina and Larry Walker were definitely juicing, and there was some suspicion of Pujols as well. (since verified by Jack Clark)

 

I don't doubt that La Russa held team meetings preaching the Bash Brothers' evangel. What really tore it for me was the day that little David Eckstein, choking up powered a HR to the opposite field 10 rows back!

 

I did not watch another game that year 'till the WS where Boston proved to be the far better Juicers.

 

 

I would say 'alleged' by Jack Clark, not 'verified'. Not that I don't think Pujols isn't juicing.....

You didn't see Albert's lawyers filing a defamation suit did you? Payoff is the name of that game.

[HiAndTight]

and you guys said I was premature to call the NL Central race over a month ago..... Funny. Dead simmons I consider you good luck. Stick around.

 

 

It'd be premature to do so if we have a 5.5 game lead on Sept 1st. Do you not remember some of the big leads we built over the Cubs in the past?

[brewcrewdue80]

Well. Is this good for Milwaukee? I don't believe Garcia to be a difference making SP for StL. Now, instead they get to use Carlos Martinez in the Rotation a former believed to be #2 SP ability prospect that was average thus far in the Bullpen this season. Here's my fear, Martinez will slowly excell in what he was originally groomed for and become a low 3ERA SP for StL. Meanwhile, StL makes a trade within the next couple weeks finding a RP to pitch in the 8th inning. (San Diego's trio of Street/Thayer/Benoit?) This newly acquired setup man locks down the 8th inning to the tune ala Wil Smith and now StL doesn't lose but 1 more game they are tied or leading heading in to the 8th inning the rest of the season. Wacha returns in 2weeks giving StL at that point a Starting rotation that has an ERA from here on out under 2.6 and since they pretty much go 7innings apiece. They win 70 more games from here on out on the season. Destroying the NL.

 

This isn't good for Milwaukee sans the 2+ missed starts by Wacha. Just watch.

[PrinceFielderx1]

brwrsfan,

 

Teams win games and become contenders with "pitching." Plain and simple. The Cards just lost 2 very good "starting" pitchers. They won't be a contender unless they can replace that production that they now lack. With the amount of time both of those pitchers will miss I'm very comfortable saying it's over for them. They just ate into their pitching depth way sooner than they wanted to.

[PrinceFielderx1]

What do you base your brewer homerism and Cardinal hatred on?? I'm sure all of us would love to win the division and have the Cardinals miss the playoffs, but there is still over half a season to go...and yes, they have 2 injured starters, but the Cardinals currently hold one of the two wild card spots (by 2.5 over Atlanta), they have the 7th or 8th best winning percentage in all of baseball and are 10-4 in their last 14 games so it's not like they've been free falling or anything.

 

This next stretch should be very telling for them. This is their schedule up to the all star break:

3 @ Denver

4 @ LAD

3 @ SF

3 vs Miami

4 vs Pittsburgh

3 @ Milwaukee

 

That's about as tough as it gets (and much like our August).

 

lets not forget that they play 7 against Milwaukee in September

 

They will likely be over 10+ games back of the Brewers by that time.

[PrinceFielderx1]

and you guys said I was premature to call the NL Central race over a month ago..... Funny. Dead simmons I consider you good luck. Stick around.

 

 

It'd be premature to do so if we have a 5.5 game lead on Sept 1st. Do you not remember some of the big leads we built over the Cubs in the past?

 

Yes I do. I've looked deeper into this than that, actually.

[adamb100]

Seriously, this team could pull off a famous Pirates or Mets second half collapse. There's still a ton of baseball to be played and to say we have the division locked up is silly. Even if we were 10 games ahead, I wouldn't say the division is won. The Cardinals are a good team, and while they got dealt some significant injuries this week, you can never count them out.

[adambr2]

and you guys said I was premature to call the NL Central race over a month ago..... Funny. Dead simmons I consider you good luck. Stick around.

 

You were and you are. Please stop. Anyone but the Cubs could still win this division. A 4.5 game lead is nothing. 7 game leads have been blown with less than 3 weeks left.

 

If you were to tell me today that we do not go on to win the division but do end up winning a wild card, I would be satisfied.

[brwrsfan]

What do you base your brewer homerism and Cardinal hatred on?? I'm sure all of us would love to win the division and have the Cardinals miss the playoffs, but there is still over half a season to go...and yes, they have 2 injured starters, but the Cardinals currently hold one of the two wild card spots (by 2.5 over Atlanta), they have the 7th or 8th best winning percentage in all of baseball and are 10-4 in their last 14 games so it's not like they've been free falling or anything.

 

This next stretch should be very telling for them. This is their schedule up to the all star break:

3 @ Denver

4 @ LAD

3 @ SF

3 vs Miami

4 vs Pittsburgh

3 @ Milwaukee

 

That's about as tough as it gets (and much like our August).

 

lets not forget that they play 7 against Milwaukee in September

 

They will likely be over 10+ games back of the Brewers by that time.

 

So after tonights games, the lead is at 4.5 with 19 games for the Cardinals before the break. You really believe that we're going to gain 5.5 games on them over the next 3 weeks?? Unless you're thinking they're going to just really implode and go something like 4-15, this is pretty hard to do. If they even go 9-10, we'd have to go 15-4 to gain 6 games that quickly. Not impossible, but I think that's extremely unlikely to happen.

 

Yeah, they are out 2 starters, but they have pretty vaunted pitching depth which they are now tapping into. Not part of the plan, but they have lots of quality starters to fill those voids. And they have the ammo in the minors to go out and get a starter or a bat if they feel inclined to do so.

[Thurston Fluff]

Seriously, this team could pull off a famous Pirates or Mets second half collapse. There's still a ton of baseball to be played and to say we have the division locked up is silly. Even if we were 10 games ahead, I wouldn't say the division is won. The Cardinals are a good team, and while they got dealt some significant injuries this week, you can never count them out.

 

I'm not going so far as to say it's over but this is a little far the other way. What about this team makes you suspect that? Their past? Never happened to them before. Lack of knowing what it takes to win a division? Done that before. Sure things happen but that level of pessimism always seemed to me to miss joy of the ride waiting for the crash.

[PrinceFielderx1]

brwrsfan,

 

Was referring to September.

[HiAndTight]

Seriously, this team could pull off a famous Pirates or Mets second half collapse. There's still a ton of baseball to be played and to say we have the division locked up is silly. Even if we were 10 games ahead, I wouldn't say the division is won. The Cardinals are a good team, and while they got dealt some significant injuries this week, you can never count them out.

 

I'm not going so far as to say it's over but this is a little far the other way. What about this team makes you suspect that? Their past? Never happened to them before. Lack of knowing what it takes to win a division? Done that before. Sure things happen but that level of pessimism always seemed to me to miss joy of the ride waiting for the crash.

 

 

They were up 9 games on the Cubs this time of year in 2007 and ended up winning 83 games and losing the division by 2 games.

 

I also seem to remember other occasions when we jumped out to big leads and let teams overtake us.

 

And while we've done some of those things before(once recently) the Card are more talented, and routinely have done it.

[HiAndTight]

and you guys said I was premature to call the NL Central race over a month ago..... Funny. Dead simmons I consider you good luck. Stick around.

 

You were and you are. Please stop. Anyone but the Cubs could still win this division. A 4.5 game lead is nothing. 7 game leads have been blown with less than 3 weeks left.

 

If you were to tell me today that we do not go on to win the division but do end up winning a wild card, I would be satisfied.

 

 

I thought this was a team that could win 70 games or upper 80's coming into the season. More players have exceeded expectations than not.

 

And this isn't a shot, but PrinceFielderx1 is an optimist, convinced we could get Stanton AND the "unproven," Fernandez(yes, Jose) for Ryan Braun.

 

I am a optimist usually. But not to the point that when it's pouring outside I believe that I can walk to my care and have the drops miss me. But....I'll say this. While I might raise an eyebrow at some of these posts, there better than the, "when will the wheels come off," type of fans.

[Ennder]

This was an upper 80 win roster on paper assuming they missed the injury bug which they have so far. Depth is the big flaw with the team and so far it hasn't been a huge deal. More than any team in the division health is the key for us because there just aren't many replacements coming. The team was right where I expected them before this last winning streak.

[brwrsfan]

brwrsfan,

 

Was referring to September.

 

My apologies, I misinterpreted your post.

[Dead Simmons]

This was an upper 80 win roster on paper assuming they missed the injury bug which they have so far. Depth is the big flaw with the team and so far it hasn't been a huge deal. More than any team in the division health is the key for us because there just aren't many replacements coming. The team was right where I expected them before this last winning streak.

Depth is a good thing to have of course, but last year the Reds had all five starters all year stay off the DL I believe but there was something missing. Votto, Bruce, Choo, BP, Frazier and Ludwick should have put them over the top.

 

The addition of Hamilton this year, in my mind makes them the most talented team in the Central, but they continue to be on and off. I'm at a loss to figure it out.

[RightFieldCoder]

I won't discount the Cardinals until our and every wild card's magic number picture is Franklin Stubbs.

[HiAndTight]

This was an upper 80 win roster on paper assuming they missed the injury bug which they have so far. Depth is the big flaw with the team and so far it hasn't been a huge deal. More than any team in the division health is the key for us because there just aren't many replacements coming. The team was right where I expected them before this last winning streak.

 

 

I thought you said this was a ~80 win team in April?

 

 

I think who they are "on paper," has changed a bit now that we have come to accept that Lucroy is a legitimately great player, and Gomez was no fluke.

 

I don't think many had them pegged as an 88, 89 game winner back then.