The "This Cost Us the Playoffs in 2014" thread

[brwrsfan]

Of course the contact play does not override the "freeze on a liner" rule because in that scenario you can wait for the ball to get through and score easily. Infact, with the contact play on you should start running back to the base on a liner as soon as possible instead of freeze

 

You cannot have it both ways. You cannot have a player freezing on contact AND going on contact.

 

I disagree. Going on "contact" only applies if the ball is clearly going to be on the ground. Guys don't take off running on contact if the ball is up in the air - and that includes line drives. If you're at 3b and the ball is a line drive OR a fly ball, the first reaction needs to be back towards third - if you see the ball is going to fall or get through the infield you'll be able to score easily either way.

 

The contact play should really only come into play on anything hit on the ground.

[Baldkin]

Of course the contact play does not override the "freeze on a liner" rule because in that scenario you can wait for the ball to get through and score easily. Infact, with the contact play on you should start running back to the base on a liner as soon as possible instead of freeze

 

You cannot have it both ways. You cannot have a player freezing on contact AND going on contact.

 

I disagree. Going on "contact" only applies if the ball is clearly going to be on the ground. Guys don't take off running on contact if the ball is up in the air - and that includes line drives. If you're at 3b and the ball is a line drive OR a fly ball, the first reaction needs to be back towards third - if you see the ball is going to fall or get through the infield you'll be able to score easily either way.

 

The contact play should really only come into play on anything hit on the ground.

 

So, you think in the time it takes your neurons to fire and make your legs push off either towards the bag or towards home plate, you can tell if a ball is going to 1-hop the 3B or be caught 6" off the ground?

 

I don't think you can do that. You may be able to in lower levels of baseball, but when the ball is coming off the bat at 100+ MPH, there isn't time for your first motion to be determined that quickly.

[Thurston Fluff]

So, you think in the time it takes your neurons to fire and make your legs push off either towards the bag or towards home plate, you can tell if a ball is going to 1-hop the 3B or be caught 6" off the ground?

 

Considering a hitter can analyze the way a ball is thrown and it's rotation then react to it almost instantly I think that same person can manage to figure out the ball's trajectory fairly quickly as well.

[brewcrewdue80]

Roenicke allows the team to come to the stadium later because of the Rockies sweep. Equals 3hit performance by the offense and making 90MPH FBs look like they were coming in at 120!

[topper09er]

Of course the contact play does not override the "freeze on a liner" rule because in that scenario you can wait for the ball to get through and score easily. Infact, with the contact play on you should start running back to the base on a liner as soon as possible instead of freeze

 

You cannot have it both ways. You cannot have a player freezing on contact AND going on contact.

 

Its not both ways. The play means go on contact, as soon as you notice it is a liner start going back. If it is not a liner keep going if it is on the ground, and obviously go back in plenty of time if it is a fly. I have successfully done it many times in

so I am living proof it can be done. I even once got back to 3rd on a suicide squeeze play the batter popped up because as soon as I say him raise his bat up I started going back.

[Baldkin]

So, you think in the time it takes your neurons to fire and make your legs push off either towards the bag or towards home plate, you can tell if a ball is going to 1-hop the 3B or be caught 6" off the ground?

 

Considering a hitter can analyze the way a ball is thrown and it's rotation then react to it almost instantly I think that same person can manage to figure out the ball's trajectory fairly quickly as well.

 

Yet, every hitter starts his swing before the ball is even thrown. The only thing not firing is his arms/wrists if the pitch is poor.

 

It's no different than a guy getting picked off.

[pitchleague]

Wow, I really expected at least one post in this thread about how losing a 16-inning game that could've been won a bunch of times could cost us the playoffs.

[AZBrewCrew]

Not being able to hit above average pitching will cost us the playoffs.

[HiAndTight]

I am absolutely with you on the last paragraph. We are a less talented team than probably 6 or 7 teams in the NL. So we're going to have to do things better and we're going to have to have some players play beyond expectations.

 

But I just totally, totally disagree with the bolded part. First, Garza is NOT our worst starting pitcher. That honor belongs to Marco Estrada.

Estrada has a 5.43 FIP, Garza has a 3.86. Garza is not pitching as well as he could, but he's historically been a very good pitcher.

Estrada has a .240 BABIP, Garza a .297. And of course Estrada leads the team in HR's.

 

But this argument that he didn't take Garza out because he has these set roles in the BP have been dis-proven time and time again(including tonight). Your veteran pitcher who's pitched in big games and has been a very good pitcher throughout his career was still throwing well. Segura had a costly error and I agree, you still have to get out of the mess. Garza didn't. That's on him. But this is what I'm talking about with regard to how managers just cannot win. You trust your proven starter and he gives up the lead, you're an idiot for taking him out. You consistently yank them early and you're stressing the BP. I had no problem giving Garza one more hitter, especially when it was the #8 hitter in the lineup.

 

 

And Roenicke has used his relievers in so many different situations this year and been very unconventional(relative to the most managers) that I don't see how you could even begin to argue that his thought process had anything to do with not bringing Smith in because he's the 8th inning guy and it was only the 7th inning. Smith has 11 appearances in the 7th inning this year and 16 in the 8th. So he's used him whenever he's needed him. This team has the least established "8th inning guy," or "7th inning guy," or literally any Brewers team I've seen in the last 15 years. The ONLY difference is some of those teams had pens so bad that nobody could keep their job as the SU man. Roenicke has said he has several guys he's confident going to in SU situations. Henderson when healthy, Smith, Thornburg, and Kintlzer, and we're going to need all 4 by the end of the year. Henderson coming back healthy would be a big boost, hopefully by the end of June.

 

 

For the record, I'm not "whitewashing," anything. I simply find it absurd that RR is costing us a shot at the playoffs and I think there is a lot of knee jerk type reactions to relatively routine

 

He extols Falu, a bad hitter, because Falu doesn't strike out. Hmmm . . . Why is it patently moronic again to fetishize bad hitters who make contact? Does Falu's game-ending double play ring any bells?

 

This one...I don't even know what to do with. When did he "fetishize," Falu? I'm just going to assume you're using "fetish," in this instance to mean have an irrational or over the top commitment to a player as opposed to other definitions. Falu has TWO plate appearances and literally BOTH times he was the LAST guy to get an at bat. So I would argue there is absolutely zero evidence that he has some strong commitment to Falu. Could you show me where he was signing the praises of Falu? Who incidentally has historically been a pretty good hitter for average. One double play is so irrelevant in the large scheme, ESPECIALLY given the fact that his only other choice would have been to bring in a pitcher, I don't know what it has to do with anything.

 

The point about Falu is pretty simple. RR said he valued Falu offensively because he can make contact. Nothing else; just that he can make contact. I think that's fairly obviously a stupid reason to value a hitter. I'm not going to try to out-snark you here, because I know when I'm beaten, but I think my point is fairly simple. If you think I'm wrong, and you feel like explaining why it makes sense to promote and rely on a hitter who can do nothing other than not strike out, that's fine.

 

You say that my complaint about the Garza decision is invalid because I'd complain just as much if RR brought in a reliever there and he failed. Actually, I wouldn't. You made that up, pulled it out of your butt, and pinned it on me. I really, truly, desperately wanted RR to pull Garza at that point. You don't just get to assert whatever the hell you feel like asserting, posit that some people think your assertion is too hot while other people think it's too cold, and conclude based on that variety of imagined objections that you're obviously right, let alone that a particular person with a distinct objection to your view is obviously wrong. That's exactly the kind of whitewash I was talking about.

 

I wasn't trying to "out snark," anyone. You said that RR "fetishizes," Falu and that he extols his offensive capability. He used him as the last option and didn't give him a single start. So if someone is "asserting whatever the hell they feel like asserting," it's you regarding Roenicke's opinion of Falu, which unlike what you accuse me of doing, you actually did state that Roenicke has an unhealthy obsession with Falu.

 

As for Garza, never once did I state YOU said anything. I spoke in general terms. He'd been getting beaten up for overusing the BP. I stated that regardless of his move, people would come on here and blast him for it. He's a veteran who is used to pitching deep into games...which he's done well. I never said that YOU in particular would have bashed RR for going to the pen, I said that he would have been as he has been all year. But I find the hostility in your post a bit hypocritical.

 

And by the way, I don't believe RR promoted or counted on Falu "simply because he can make contact." If you're saying promoted as in literally called him up, that's not his call. If you're saying promoted as in promoted his value offensively, you're mistaken. For a guy you claim RR spoke so highly of, he got 10 at bats before another team claimed him off waivers and put him on their 25 man. In fact, it's pretty clear he didn't value him very highly at all, he was simply the last option available. With that said, he has a career .303 BA and has hit over .300 at various stops at every level above A ball in his career. So while I don't believe that RR fetishized him or "extolled his offensive capabilities," just because he doesn't strike out, he clearly has done more than simply NOT strike out. So I'm at a loss as to what I was "whitewashing."

[HiAndTight]

Not being able to hit above average pitching will cost us the playoffs.

 

 

We've beaten very good pitchers regularly this year. Strausburg being the latest, but Lester, Shark twice, Cole, Cashner as well as others.

2nd in the league in pretty much every offensive category.

 

 

What about spliting this thread with some, "this helped us get to the playoffs," type thread instead of the whole...glass is half empty line of thinking?

[KCBrewerfan34]

The Brewers are going to make the playoffs

[tigerbrew]

I think just making the playoffs in 2014 is simply not good enough, this team should aim for the World Series and make history.

[Thurston Fluff]

Do you really think the team isn't aiming for that?

[Bombers]

1-10

[yfinn6]

1-10

 

Meh, we were bad in the 1990s and early 2000s. Brewer fans should be happy to be in 1st place.

[adambr2]

1-10

 

Meh, we were bad in the 1990s and early 2000s. Brewer fans should be happy to be in 1st place.

 

I know this is true, but I really hate the idea that just because we used to REALLY suck 10-20 years ago, we should just be happy with what we can get now.

 

The Packers used to be awful in the 70's and 80's. Doesn't mean I'm OK with 10-6 and going out in the first round.

[cnycerveceros]

1-10

 

Meh, we were bad in the 1990s and early 2000s. Brewer fans should be happy to be in 1st place.

 

I know this is true, but I really hate the idea that just because we used to REALLY suck 10-20 years ago, we should just be happy with what we can get now.

 

The Packers used to be awful in the 70's and 80's. Doesn't mean I'm OK with 10-6 and going out in the first round.

 

I think yfinn was being sarcastic about an exchange in the 7/11 IGT.

[yfinn6]

Indeed I was. I was also slightly inebriated last night, so I was a little more annoyed than usual.

[pitchleague]

you know, after thinking about this streak today, I'm beginning to think what will cost us the playoffs in 2014 will be the road trip to Arizona and Colorado. The team played phenominally and hit even better. We came off that road trip and continued to play "decently" but the hitting started showing signs of disappearing, especially Carlos Gomez, who began swinging as hard as he can every time up no matter the situation. (He seemed very frustrated that everybody else was driving the ball all over Coors Field [note: exaggeration] while he wasn't.)

 

Ever since that trip, they have hit the hitting skids. It's too bad. Yeah, yeah, they've had some occasional breakouts in the hitting department but, as a whole, not so much.

 

Just my 2 cents. Which isn't worth much anyways.

[AdvantageSchneider]

What's going to cost us is when Will Smith's arm falls off during the playoff run. Before today's game he was on pace to tie Ken Sanders team record for appearances with 83. He might be ahead of that pace now. Don't know what the point of pitching him in an 8-1 or 9-1 ball game is. Just stupid.

[pitchleague]

I think just so he could get some work in before sitting for the next 5 days.

[AdvantageSchneider]

That just doesn't make any sense when he's on pace to pitch in over half the team's games. It's not like he's rusty.

 

K-rod too is on pace for 76 appearances.

 

If we do make the playoffs those guys aren't going to have anything left in the tank anyway. What's the point? Smith could pitch in 90 games this year if we make the playoffs.

[AdvantageSchneider]

That just doesn't make any sense when he's on pace to pitch in over half the team's games. It's not like he's rusty.

 

K-rod too is on pace for 76 appearances.

 

If we do make the playoffs those guys aren't going to have anything left in the tank anyway. What's the point? Smith could pitch in 90 games this year if we make the playoffs.

[monty57]

Before today's game he was on pace to tie Ken Sanders team record for appearances with 83. He might be ahead of that pace now.

 

This is one of my arguments against putting young players who may have a future as a starter into the bullpen. For a manager, winning today's game is more important than potentially winning a game in future years. Therefore, the long-term health of a relief pitcher is not going to be the top priority when today's game is on the line.

 

The reason the player has a future as a starter is because he's talented. Therefore, he is the most likely guy to be overused. Before the season started, I figured it would be Thornburg who would set the record for appearances, but since his arm already fell off, Smith is next in line for that honor.

[lcbj68c]

Smith is a guy that they were looking at being a starter, IIRC. To the point of pitching him 200+ innings. Pitching every other day to the tune of 87 innings doesn't raise red flags to me at the MLB level. 12yr old adolescent, sure. Adult? Not so much.

 

I don't have a ton of concerns about the bullpen and it's usage in being a detrimental contributor to the 2014 playoff chances.