Would You Consider....

[HiAndTight]

I would never trade Braun, not even for pre-TJ Fernandez. Pitchers and unreliable and flame out all the time, whereas Braun is a HoF-caliber offensive performer signed (by today's standards) to a reasonable contract for the length of his career. I'm not saying he's the best player in baseball by any means, but I don't think there's anyone I would trade him for. Even Mike Trout you're only getting him for a few years, because he would never sign the extension Braun is on to stay in Milwaukee.

 

(Maybe I would trade him if it was something ludicrous like Braun+ for Stanton/Fernandez as suggested above, but that kind of trade is just fanciful and would never happen).

 

 

Yes, pitchers are more prone to injuries. However as we're seeing, Braun is also prone to injuries.

 

The difference is, when you're a competitive team, a pitcher makes a much bigger difference in the playoffs than a pitcher. Especially if we're talking about arguably the best pitcher in the game(pre TJ Fernandez).

 

And if we were offered Trout for Braun, I would do that in a heartbeat. We'd have 6 years of Mike Trout. He may very well put up a higher WAR in those 6 years than Braun will for the rest of his career. Trout is a once in a lifetime type talent.

 

For that trade I'd throw in Fiers to make it very realistic. Feel free to adjust my proposal guys to more realistic levels. The Brewers have the prospects and if you include a player like Braun anything is possible. If you are worried about giving up too much don't even think twice. There's also Gallardo and Ramirez that you can trade in the off-season for prospect and that 3B man we need. Stanton can be re-signed the Brewers have the money to pull a yankees and pay market value for him.

 

Again, what part of the Marlins history would suggest they'd trade young cheap player for a 30 year old player who's going to be earning 20 million dollars a year? Even if Braun was as valuable as Stanton and Fernandez(with Fiers) why on earth would they part with those players as opposed to multiple 20 year old can't miss top 20 prospects?

 

And Ramirez is a FA after this year, so the Brewers can't trade him in the off-season.

 

Finally, while I've argued for years that the Brewers would be able to be more competitive financially with the biggest markets, they'll never be equal to them. The Yankees make as much as 400 million a year from the YES network. Sure, a big chunk of that (34%) goes to revenue sharing, they still keep a ton. So we're likely never going to be able to sign a player like Stanton in free agency, nor should we.

 

 

Any trade with the Marlins will likely consist of young players going TO the Marlins and older/more expensive players coming to the Brewers. Nothing they've done over the last 15 years save for a one year spending spree which they immediately sold off suggests they'll do otherwise.

 

 

Instead of losing a very good hitter in Stanton, they get a guaranteed controlled one that is a once in a lifetime player in Braun. You put way too much stock in these injury's. Don't worry you will shortly change your mind very soon, because Braun will start hitting. Teams will be lining up for him one by one. The trade deadline is in July btw. The Brewers will pick up Ramirez option. You do know he has a option, right?

 

 

OR they could just go with the young, extremely talented OF'ers they've got in their farm system and trade Stanton for more talented young players who don't cost 20 million dollars and are 10 years younger without injury concerns.

 

And yes, I realize Ramirez has an option. You do realize it's a mutual option, correct? Meaning if he has a big year, he's likely to opt out, and if he has a bad year, the Brewers are likely to pass up paying him 14 million for next year.

 

And you make these statements as if they're fact. Ryan Braun and the team has said that his thumb injury is not going away. Hands and wrists are what give a hitter his bat speed, power...everything. So I'm not sure I'm putting too much stock into it and that it will just go away when Ryan Braun has said that it won't just go away and he's worried about it. But you believe other teams will just ignore that and be lining up to give us younger, equally talented players for a guy who has a huge stigma surrounding him after the scandal he was involved in and the injuries he's been suffering?

 

There is a difference between having confidence that everything will work out for the Brewers and the reality that other teams are looking at.

[vegasbrewcrew1993]

HiandTight said:

OR they could just go with the young, extremely talented OF'ers they've got in their farm system and trade Stanton for more talented young players who don't cost 20 million dollars and are 10 years younger without injury concerns.

 

And yes, I realize Ramirez has an option. You do realize it's a mutual option, correct? Meaning if he has a big year, he's likely to opt out, and if he has a bad year, the Brewers are likely to pass up paying him 14 million for next year.

 

And you make these statements as if they're fact. Ryan Braun and the team has said that his thumb injury is not going away. Hands and wrists are what give a hitter his bat speed, power...everything. So I'm not sure I'm putting too much stock into it and that it will just go away when Ryan Braun has said that it won't just go away and he's worried about it. But you believe other teams will just ignore that and be lining up to give us younger, equally talented players for a guy who has a huge stigma surrounding him after the scandal he was involved in and the injuries he's been suffering?

 

There is a difference between having confidence that everything will work out for the Brewers and the reality that other teams are looking at.

 

VegasBrewCrew

What if a rich team like Texas , Boston, Angels, Dodgers, or Mariners wanted Braun? What would you seek from them?

[jjkoestler]

Would I trade Braun? Absolutely. I'd trade anyone if the value was there. Unfortunately I believe that the package of players the Brewers could realistically get for Braun wouldn't be anywhere close to the value he has to the Brewers. Gomez would net a much greater return at this point.

 

It would be fairly easy to pick 3-4 players from every club in MLB that I'd take in return for Braun. Just for fun...

 

Marlins

Yelich

Ozuna

Heaney

 

Texas

Profar

Odor

Gallo

 

Boston

Bogaerts

Betts

Ball/Owens

 

LAA

Cron

Lindsey

Cowart

 

LAD

Kemp + lots of cash

Pederson

Lee

 

Seattle

Walker

Paxton

Peterson

[HiAndTight]

HiandTight said:

OR they could just go with the young, extremely talented OF'ers they've got in their farm system and trade Stanton for more talented young players who don't cost 20 million dollars and are 10 years younger without injury concerns.

 

And yes, I realize Ramirez has an option. You do realize it's a mutual option, correct? Meaning if he has a big year, he's likely to opt out, and if he has a bad year, the Brewers are likely to pass up paying him 14 million for next year.

 

And you make these statements as if they're fact. Ryan Braun and the team has said that his thumb injury is not going away. Hands and wrists are what give a hitter his bat speed, power...everything. So I'm not sure I'm putting too much stock into it and that it will just go away when Ryan Braun has said that it won't just go away and he's worried about it. But you believe other teams will just ignore that and be lining up to give us younger, equally talented players for a guy who has a huge stigma surrounding him after the scandal he was involved in and the injuries he's been suffering?

 

There is a difference between having confidence that everything will work out for the Brewers and the reality that other teams are looking at.

 

VegasBrewCrew

What if a rich team like Texas , Boston, Angels, Dodgers, or Mariners wanted Braun? What would you seek from them?

 

Well it would depend on the team. From Texas I'd start with Jurickson Profar and then hopefully add another top 100-ish prospect. Preferably a 3rd basemen, but really any position player.

 

I can't imagine the Dodgers would make a move for Braun with 4 OF'ers and Gonzalez at 1st, but Joc Pedersen and Van Slyke and perhaps a young arm.

 

The Mariners, I'd like someone like Walker...but they have enough good prospects that you could easily work out a deal. I'd like Ackley back in that deal after an elite prospect just because I believe in giving former elite prospects a shot if they're still young just because I believe they often put too much pressure on themselves given the expectations the fan base has for them. The old change of scenery. No clue who I'd ask for from the Angels or the Red Sox.

[brewcrewdue80]

Fairly Foolish Thread.... The proposals.

 

I don't want Profar, I'll take Odor and laugh at having the more impact player. while Texas is left playing the wrong Middle Infield like they did with Andrus.

 

 

To the thought Miami Can't afford Braun's contract? What? Just wait, they'll sign Stanton or Fernandez to a contract that exceeds Braun's pay per season before the end of next season.(Of course, I'm one who believes Miami is about to be sold once they can)

 

It's simple what team the Brewers need to trade Braun to....Houston and ask for Singleton in return and ask for McCullers and Rio Ruiz. That would cover 1b/3b and an elite prospect SP. I honestly think that's asking too much for Braun. I wouldn't do it if I were Houston. Probably have to throw in a guy like Thornburg or Smith. Just because Singleton's projected value is so high. And Houston is taking on the Payroll of Braun.

 

Houston's Prospects fill the Brewer's organization needs big time.

[PrinceFielderx1]

Hiandtight,

 

 

 

I never said Braun's thumb injury needed to go away. He's a damn good hitter elite caliber even with it. That's why I'm so confident. Also, yes you will change your mind about those injury's and Braun very shortly.

[HiAndTight]

Fairly Foolish Thread.... The proposals.

 

I don't want Profar, I'll take Odor and laugh at having the more impact player. while Texas is left playing the wrong Middle Infield like they did with Andrus.

 

 

To the thought Miami Can't afford Braun's contract? What? Just wait, they'll sign Stanton or Fernandez to a contract that exceeds Braun's pay per season before the end of next season.(Of course, I'm one who believes Miami is about to be sold once they can)

 

It's simple what team the Brewers need to trade Braun to....Houston and ask for Singleton in return and ask for McCullers and Rio Ruiz. That would cover 1b/3b and an elite prospect SP. I honestly think that's asking too much for Braun. I wouldn't do it if I were Houston. Probably have to throw in a guy like Thornburg or Smith. Just because Singleton's projected value is so high. And Houston is taking on the Payroll of Braun.

 

Houston's Prospects fill the Brewer's organization needs big time.

 

 

I hadn't realized it was established that Odor would be a more productive player than Profar. Odor has a .550 OPS thus far. Of course he's young and very talented...but I'm not quite sure why it's laughable to take Profar over Odor.

 

Second, I never said the Marlins can't afford Braun. Of course they can. I'm asking at what point in time have the Marlins made the decision to trade for an expensive, aging veteran while giving up elite YOUNG talent? The Marlins payroll is covered by revenue sharing, so what they CAN do and what they're likely to do are obviously different things at this point.

 

They epitomize why big market teams like the Dodgers aren't real big fans of having to hand over 3.4 billion of their 7 billion dollar TV deal to small market teams...which I completely understand.

 

I never said Braun's thumb injury needed to go away. He's a damn good hitter elite caliber even with it. That's why I'm so confident. Also, yes you will change your mind about those injury's and Braun very shortly.

 

 

Here's the problem with your entire premise. What am I changing my mind TO? I believe Ryan Braun is a great player. I believe he's a great hitter. I don't know(doubt) he'll ever win an MVP again, or put up the best offensive numbers in the league simply because he DOES have chronic injuries and he's on the wrong side of 30. But I think Braun's a great player. Possibly the best offensive player the Brewers have ever had. And lets assume that he will continue to be an elite hitter without feeling in his thumb.

 

So even if you think Ryan Braun is going to duplicate what he did from ages 25-29 and you ignore the steroid scandal, why on Earth would you rather take on a massive contract and give up one player who's at least close to as good of a RF'er as Braun and a young star pitcher?

 

Put it this way. It's 2006. Vlad Guerrero is someone the Brewers are trying to add so they can win 80 games rather than 75. Just to compare Braun to Vlad, Vlad had a better BA, about 100 more HR's, more SB's, better OBP, SLG and OPS than Braun through their age 30 season. Vlad had an AVERAGE WAR of 5. Braun's has been ~4 through that same time. So at the very least, lets say they are comparable players.

 

Would YOU as a Brewer fan have been in favor of giving up Ryan Braun and our top pitching prospect Yovani Gallardo at the time? Mind you, Gallardo isn't nearly as talented as Fernandez. Oh, and on top of that, we're due to pay Vlad another 130 million dollars for that privilege.

 

What I'm trying to say is that I really don't see why the Marlins would want to make such a trade. That wouldn't have made any sense for the Brewers at the time, and of course unlike Braun and Yo, Fernandez and Stanton are already proven young stars(at approximately the same ages, Gallardo was 20, Fernandez is 21, Braun was ~23, Stanton is 24).

 

It's hardly a perfect comparison, but it's close enough.

 

So I don't think I need to be convinced of anything regarding Braun. He's really good. You don't need to sell me on that. What I don't get is why the Marlins would want him, the scandal surrounding him, the injuries that have started to bother him(regardless of how confident you are that he's going to be just fine, the Marlins likely aren't).

[PrinceFielderx1]

Fairly Foolish Thread.... The proposals.

 

I don't want Profar, I'll take Odor and laugh at having the more impact player. while Texas is left playing the wrong Middle Infield like they did with Andrus.

 

 

To the thought Miami Can't afford Braun's contract? What? Just wait, they'll sign Stanton or Fernandez to a contract that exceeds Braun's pay per season before the end of next season.(Of course, I'm one who believes Miami is about to be sold once they can)

 

It's simple what team the Brewers need to trade Braun to....Houston and ask for Singleton in return and ask for McCullers and Rio Ruiz. That would cover 1b/3b and an elite prospect SP. I honestly think that's asking too much for Braun. I wouldn't do it if I were Houston. Probably have to throw in a guy like Thornburg or Smith. Just because Singleton's projected value is so high. And Houston is taking on the Payroll of Braun.

 

Houston's Prospects fill the Brewer's organization needs big time.

 

 

I hadn't realized it was established that Odor would be a more productive player than Profar. Odor has a .550 OPS thus far. Of course he's young and very talented...but I'm not quite sure why it's laughable to take Profar over Odor.

 

Second, I never said the Marlins can't afford Braun. Of course they can. I'm asking at what point in time have the Marlins made the decision to trade for an expensive, aging veteran while giving up elite YOUNG talent? The Marlins payroll is covered by revenue sharing, so what they CAN do and what they're likely to do are obviously different things at this point.

 

They epitomize why big market teams like the Dodgers aren't real big fans of having to hand over 3.4 billion of their 7 billion dollar TV deal to small market teams...which I completely understand.

 

I never said Braun's thumb injury needed to go away. He's a damn good hitter elite caliber even with it. That's why I'm so confident. Also, yes you will change your mind about those injury's and Braun very shortly.

 

 

Here's the problem with your entire premise. What am I changing my mind TO? I believe Ryan Braun is a great player. I believe he's a great hitter. I don't know(doubt) he'll ever win an MVP again, or put up the best offensive numbers in the league simply because he DOES have chronic injuries and he's on the wrong side of 30. But I think Braun's a great player. Possibly the best offensive player the Brewers have ever had. And lets assume that he will continue to be an elite hitter without feeling in his thumb.

 

So even if you think Ryan Braun is going to duplicate what he did from ages 25-29 and you ignore the steroid scandal, why on Earth would you rather take on a massive contract and give up one player who's at least close to as good of a RF'er as Braun and a young star pitcher?

 

Put it this way. It's 2006. Vlad Guerrero is someone the Brewers are trying to add so they can win 80 games rather than 75. Just to compare Braun to Vlad, Vlad had a better BA, about 100 more HR's, more SB's, better OBP, SLG and OPS than Braun through their age 30 season. Vlad had an AVERAGE WAR of 5. Braun's has been ~4 through that same time. So at the very least, lets say they are comparable players.

 

Would YOU as a Brewer fan have been in favor of giving up Ryan Braun and our top pitching prospect Yovani Gallardo at the time? Mind you, Gallardo isn't nearly as talented as Fernandez. Oh, and on top of that, we're due to pay Vlad another 130 million dollars for that privilege.

 

What I'm trying to say is that I really don't see why the Marlins would want to make such a trade. That wouldn't have made any sense for the Brewers at the time, and of course unlike Braun and Yo, Fernandez and Stanton are already proven young stars(at approximately the same ages, Gallardo was 20, Fernandez is 21, Braun was ~23, Stanton is 24).

 

It's hardly a perfect comparison, but it's close enough.

 

So I don't think I need to be convinced of anything regarding Braun. He's really good. You don't need to sell me on that. What I don't get is why the Marlins would want him, the scandal surrounding him, the injuries that have started to bother him(regardless of how confident you are that he's going to be just fine, the Marlins likely aren't).

 

Look at it this way, I don't believe the Marlins can re-sign him for what he will get, but the Brewers can. I view Staton as a 1 year controled elite player. Now Ryan Braun I view as an eleite hitter with 5 years of control. If your the Marlins would you want a guaranteed 5 years of an elite player or 1 more year of stanton and then lose him? Brauns value is high much higher than Stantons because of control time. So much higher that asking for Their top pitcher who isn't elite yet for Braun in my opinion is eqaull or a little below equal value for BOTH of them, so just add fiers and get it done.

[monty57]

I don't get the connection of "we have Gomez so we should trade Braun." They play different positions, so one isn't blocking the other.

 

As to whether we should look to trade Braun, I'm always open to trading anyone if the offer is there, and as Braun's salary goes up, his production will likely go down with age. However, right now Braun's value is lower than it should be due to the lingering concern over PED use and his nagging injuries. I think some healthy, productive play will alleviate these concerns, but that will take some time. He could get a very good return now, but will probably get more return a year or two from now. Since we're in first place, and Davis/Gindl/Schafer sure aren't outplaying Braun, there is no need to trade him.

 

If some team called Melvin with a crazy offer, of course he should make the trade but I don't see that happening.

[superfly]

Why on earth would we trade Ryan Braun...he's a former MVP who is being paid a very modest salary (one that this team can actually AFFORD without breaking our bank) and whose OBP, SLG, OPS, BA are all pretty well in line with his career norms & his K % is normal. Virtually nothing is different about Ryan Braun than pre-steroidgate.

 

My goodness gracious, people are getting way too trade happy and need to sit back and enjoy the season. Why don't we unload every other player on the roster too while we're at it? I can see acquiring decent bench bats ala Chavez, maybe like a Garret Jones type, but other than 1B and a good version of Rickie Weeks continuing (doubtful), what exactly is the problem with this squad? Had Jose Abreu chosen us over the Sox I doubt we'd even be having 1/4 of the discussions we are today.

 

Where is Wilson Betemit these days? I think he's a free agent or in AAA due to a knee injury last year...he'd be a cheap option that can play 3B, OF, or 1B and is a switch hitter (better on the left side... .8XX career OPS vs righties). He'd be good depth for us and he has some pop in his bat.

[HiAndTight]

Look at it this way, I don't believe the Marlins can re-sign him for what he will get, but the Brewers can. I view Staton as a 1 year controled elite player. Now Ryan Braun I view as an eleite hitter with 5 years of control. If your the Marlins would you want a guaranteed 5 years of an elite player or 1 more year of stanton and then lose him? Brauns value is high much higher than Stantons because of control time. So much higher that asking for Their top pitcher who isn't elite yet for Braun in my opinion is eqaull or a little below equal value for BOTH of them, so just add fiers and get it done.

 

Well, Stanton has almost 3 years left of team control. This year and then two more. So it's more than just 1 year of control(and by the way, Braun has ~8 years left, 7 after this year with one of them being a team option).

Second, how has Jose Fernandez not established himself as an elite pitcher?

 

In 225 innings pitched, he has a 2.25 ERA, .97 WHIP, 10.3 K/s per 9....I'm at a complete loss as to how he has proven he's not elite. Unless the group of "elite," pitchers starts and ends with Clayton Kershaw, he's elite. And even with the Tommy John, he's extremely valuable.

 

 

I can't keep going back and forth on this, so I'll just leave it here. The Marlins team payroll is 40 million dollars. They CAN afford to sign Stanton if they want, but they likely won't. They're not competitive this year. They have a long history of trading established players who are starting to earn more money for a group of young prospects.

 

So while I hate when people make absolute statements, ie, "never going to happen, not a chance," the Marlins offering the Brewers Jose Fernandez and Stanton for the right to pay Ryan Braun 20 million dollars a year when he's in his mid to late 30's is not going to happen. It's just...kinda a ridiculous.

 

The ONLY single player in the game of baseball worth both Jose Fernandez AND Mike Stanton is Mike Trout.

 

The Marlins will trade Stanton most likely for a package of 3-4 top prospects, and I can't even imagine why they'd consider trading Jose Fernandez at this point. He's 21 years old, proven he's as good as anyone in baseball, and pitchers come back from Tommy John just as good 9 times out of 10.

 

Your X-Box would laugh and hang up the phone if you tried to make a trade like this...there just isn't any reason for the Marlins to possibly want to do this.

 

Why on earth would we trade Ryan Braun...he's a former MVP who is being paid a very modest salary (one that this team can actually AFFORD without breaking our bank) and whose OBP, SLG, OPS, BA are all pretty well in line with his career norms & his K % is normal. Virtually nothing is different about Ryan Braun than pre-steroidgate.

 

Simple. You WOULD trade Ryan Braun if you could get better from the trade. He is very good, he is affordable(expensive, but affordable). But if you did drug the Marlins and they offered up Jose Fernandez and Mike Stanton as is currently being argued, of course you would do that.

 

Braun is a great-great hitter. And I am pretty confident he's not going to be traded anyway, so this is all a moot point.

[superfly]

Why on earth would we trade Ryan Braun...he's a former MVP who is being paid a very modest salary (one that this team can actually AFFORD without breaking our bank) and whose OBP, SLG, OPS, BA are all pretty well in line with his career norms & his K % is normal. Virtually nothing is different about Ryan Braun than pre-steroidgate.

 

Simple. You WOULD trade Ryan Braun if you could get better from the trade. He is very good, he is affordable(expensive, but affordable). But if you did drug the Marlins and they offered up Jose Fernandez and Mike Stanton as is currently being argued, of course you would do that.

 

Braun is a great-great hitter. And I am pretty confident he's not going to be traded anyway, so this is all a moot point.

 

I would like whatever is being smoked to create the thought of Jose and Stanton for Braun. That's pretty hilarious lol...the fact of the matter is we are married to Braun for better or for worse and he's likely to finish his career (or his career minus a year or two of chasing rings) a Brewer.

[PrinceFielderx1]

Look at it this way, I don't believe the Marlins can re-sign him for what he will get, but the Brewers can. I view Staton as a 1 year controled elite player. Now Ryan Braun I view as an eleite hitter with 5 years of control. If your the Marlins would you want a guaranteed 5 years of an elite player or 1 more year of stanton and then lose him? Brauns value is high much higher than Stantons because of control time. So much higher that asking for Their top pitcher who isn't elite yet for Braun in my opinion is eqaull or a little below equal value for BOTH of them, so just add fiers and get it done.

 

Well, Stanton has almost 3 years left of team control. This year and then two more. So it's more than just 1 year of control(and by the way, Braun has ~8 years left, 7 after this year with one of them being a team option).

Second, how has Jose Fernandez not established himself as an elite pitcher?

 

In 225 innings pitched, he has a 2.25 ERA, .97 WHIP, 10.3 K/s per 9....I'm at a complete loss as to how he has proven he's not elite. Unless the group of "elite," pitchers starts and ends with Clayton Kershaw, he's elite. And even with the Tommy John, he's extremely valuable.

 

 

I can't keep going back and forth on this, so I'll just leave it here. The Marlins team payroll is 40 million dollars. They CAN afford to sign Stanton if they want, but they likely won't. They're not competitive this year. They have a long history of trading established players who are starting to earn more money for a group of young prospects.

 

So while I hate when people make absolute statements, ie, "never going to happen, not a chance," the Marlins offering the Brewers Jose Fernandez and Stanton for the right to pay Ryan Braun 20 million dollars a year when he's in his mid to late 30's is not going to happen. It's just...kinda a ridiculous.

 

The ONLY single player in the game of baseball worth both Jose Fernandez AND Mike Stanton is Mike Trout.

 

The Marlins will trade Stanton most likely for a package of 3-4 top prospects, and I can't even imagine why they'd consider trading Jose Fernandez at this point. He's 21 years old, proven he's as good as anyone in baseball, and pitchers come back from Tommy John just as good 9 times out of 10.

 

Your X-Box would laugh and hang up the phone if you tried to make a trade like this...there just isn't any reason for the Marlins to possibly want to do this.

 

Why on earth would we trade Ryan Braun...he's a former MVP who is being paid a very modest salary (one that this team can actually AFFORD without breaking our bank) and whose OBP, SLG, OPS, BA are all pretty well in line with his career norms & his K % is normal. Virtually nothing is different about Ryan Braun than pre-steroidgate.

 

Simple. You WOULD trade Ryan Braun if you could get better from the trade. He is very good, he is affordable(expensive, but affordable). But if you did drug the Marlins and they offered up Jose Fernandez and Mike Stanton as is currently being argued, of course you would do that.

 

Braun is a great-great hitter. And I am pretty confident he's not going to be traded anyway, so this is all a moot point.

 

By your measure Peralta is elite even more so than Jose, dating back to last season. Ok 7 years of control vs 3 for stanton and a prospect in Jose who's same as Peralta. Fair trade.

[HiAndTight]

By your measure Peralta is elite even more so than Jose, dating back to last season. Ok 7 years of control vs 3 for stanton and a prospect in Jose who's same as Peralta. Fair trade.

 

I'm...just totally and completely at a loss here. How is Peralta better than Jose Fernandez by my own measure much less ANYONE'S?

 

Peralta's ERA is 3.85 since the start of last year.

Fernandez has an ERA of 2.25 since the start of last year.

Peralta has an FIP of 4.16; Whip of 1.37; 9 Hit's per 9 IP; 1 HR per 9; 3.2 BB per 9; 6.4 K per 9; 2-1 K/BB rate.

Fernandez has an FIP of 2.59; Whip of .972; 5.9 Hit's per 9; .6 HR's per 9; 2.8 BB per 9; 10.3 K per 9 3.62 K/BB rate.

 

And while wins are a team stat, Fernandez is 16-8 over that time period while Peralta is 15-17 over that time period.

The Brewers are 19-21 in games that Peralta has pitched in while the Marlins are 23-13 in games Fernandez has pitched in.

 

Fernandez is 3 years younger, and not only slightly better than Peralta, but MUCH-MUCH better in every single area. The absolute best we can hope for is that Peralta eventually reaches his ceiling and he's close to as good as Fernandez which is unlikely.

 

And for the record, when you finish 3rd in Cy Young voting, win the Rookie of the year, lead the league in fewest hits allowed in the league per 9 innings pitch, AND you post a ERA of 2.19 in 175 innings and 28 starts as a ROOKIE 20 year old pitcher, you are-NOT a prospect any longer. Even with Fernandez injured, he's still by far the most valuable player, not a "throw in," as a prospect to another deal that's highly unrealistic.

 

 

 

And since you're placing so much emphasis on how long a player is under team control, keep in mind, it's 5 years for a Cy Young caliber pitcher(not prospect) and 3 years for a 24 year OF'er. Both of whom combined won't cost nearly as much as Ryan Braun will over that same time period, but who will almost certainly be more valuable. So why on Earth would they give up two of the most prized young players in the game for a 30 year old player with a steroid scandal hanging over his head, injuries hanging over him(regardless of how confident you are they'll be fine, it's an awfully big risk for a team trading for him to take, wouldn't you say) when it's going to make them worse, cost them more money, and again, this one you've yet to answer, this is the exact opposite of what everything the Marlins have done over the last 15 years.

 

I'm just at a complete loss as to how to convince you they're not going to do it. It's a fun trade to think about as a Brewers fan, but it's incredibly unlikely in a real world scenario and this is an increasingly pointless conversation.

[HiAndTight]

 

I would like whatever is being smoked to create the thought of Jose and Stanton for Braun. That's pretty hilarious lol...the fact of the matter is we are married to Braun for better or for worse and he's likely to finish his career (or his career minus a year or two of chasing rings) a Brewer.

 

 

Yeah, agreed. And that's not such a bad thing. It was definitely a better deal for the Brewers before Braun's reputation went to hell, but he's still a very good player. He's not going anywhere most likely.

 

Though the idea of Jose and Stanton for Braun has got me thinking that I need to turn on my X-Box again as it's given me a great idea for a trade!

[PrinceFielderx1]

By your measure Peralta is elite even more so than Jose, dating back to last season. Ok 7 years of control vs 3 for stanton and a prospect in Jose who's same as Peralta. Fair trade.

 

I'm...just totally and completely at a loss here. How is Peralta better than Jose Fernandez by my own measure much less ANYONE'S?

 

Peralta's ERA is 3.85 since the start of last year.

Fernandez has an ERA of 2.25 since the start of last year.

Peralta has an FIP of 4.16; Whip of 1.37; 9 Hit's per 9 IP; 1 HR per 9; 3.2 BB per 9; 6.4 K per 9; 2-1 K/BB rate.

Fernandez has an FIP of 2.59; Whip of .972; 5.9 Hit's per 9; .6 HR's per 9; 2.8 BB per 9; 10.3 K per 9 3.62 K/BB rate.

 

And while wins are a team stat, Fernandez is 16-8 over that time period while Peralta is 15-17 over that time period.

The Brewers are 19-21 in games that Peralta has pitched in while the Marlins are 23-13 in games Fernandez has pitched in.

 

Fernandez is 3 years younger, and not only slightly better than Peralta, but MUCH-MUCH better in every single area. The absolute best we can hope for is that Peralta eventually reaches his ceiling and he's close to as good as Fernandez which is unlikely.

 

And for the record, when you finish 3rd in Cy Young voting, win the Rookie of the year, lead the league in fewest hits allowed in the league per 9 innings pitch, AND you post a ERA of 2.19 in 175 innings and 28 starts as a ROOKIE 20 year old pitcher, you are-NOT a prospect any longer. Even with Fernandez injured, he's still by far the most valuable player, not a "throw in," as a prospect to another deal that's highly unrealistic.

 

 

 

And since you're placing so much emphasis on how long a player is under team control, keep in mind, it's 5 years for a Cy Young caliber pitcher(not prospect) and 3 years for a 24 year OF'er. Both of whom combined won't cost nearly as much as Ryan Braun will over that same time period, but who will almost certainly be more valuable. So why on Earth would they give up two of the most prized young players in the game for a 30 year old player with a steroid scandal hanging over his head, injuries hanging over him(regardless of how confident you are they'll be fine, it's an awfully big risk for a team trading for him to take, wouldn't you say) when it's going to make them worse, cost them more money, and again, this one you've yet to answer, this is the exact opposite of what everything the Marlins have done over the last 15 years.

 

I'm just at a complete loss as to how to convince you they're not going to do it. It's a fun trade to think about as a Brewers fan, but it's incredibly unlikely in a real world scenario and this is an increasingly pointless conversation.

 

Go by what Peralta did over the second half of last year to this point. That's where you start. He's an ace. I stand by what I said.

[monty57]

Go by what Peralta did over the second half of last year to this point. That's where you start. He's an ace. I stand by what I said.

 

Be careful of the small sample, or of taking one small subset out of a larger sample to try to prove a point. At any point in any MLB player's career, you can take out a half season of stats where he looked really good or really bad.

 

I like Peralta and he is the Brewers' current best hope to have an "ace of staff," but he hasn't proven he's there yet. He's certainly not at Fernandez's level, as Fernandez is in the King Felix realm. That's not a knock on Peralta, it's just that almost no one is at Fernandez's level. As far as trade value, Fernandez is probably where Ryan Braun was right after he signed the 8-year/$40MM deal. It would take an MLB player like Trout, or a team like the Astros or Cardinals emptying out their farm in order to land him. Him & Stanton together??? Not gonna happen, and certainly not by the Brewers.

 

The Marlins m.o. is to stockpile young talent, and when it looks like the young talent is ready they sign some big names and win a World Series before they blow it up and start over. They have a lot of young talent who are starting to put it together. They could be about ready to add a few big names to make a run, but they aren't going to add the big name by trading away their top two young players. That makes no sense.

 

If you are looking for a potential suitor for Braun, you should look at the bigger money teams with good farm systems who are looking to win now and are willing to trade a group of prospects for a veteran. That's a fairly small list. Maybe the Red Sox and Cardinals?

[HiAndTight]

PrinceFielderx1

Go by what Peralta did over the second half of last year to this point. That's where you start. He's an ace. I stand by what I said.

 

First of all, you said, "according to your own measure Peralta is even more elite than Fernandez." Then you completely failed to explain to me what measurement I used. It certainly wasn't a small sample size.

 

But since we've used Fernandez and his entire career as a major league pitcher already, lets try it your way by just using Peralta's 2nd half and the start of this year.

 

2nd half of 2013

Peralta 3.99 ERA

Fernandez 1.33 ERA

Peralta 1.30 WHIP

Fernandez .82 WHIP

Peralta 7.6 K/9; 2.11 SO/BB

Fernandez 11.1 K/9 4.67 SO/BB

Fernandez gave up 38 hits in in 68 innings. That's how dominant he was as a 20 year old kid. Do you realize how good that is? That's not just ace good, that's Pedro in his prime good. That's Koufax type good. That's historically good. How you can try to call him an unproven prospect is just beyond me, and it's even more baffling how you can call Peralta and ace at the same time.

So not only was Peralta not even close to Jose Fernandez the 2nd half of last year, Fernandez was insanely good. And this is after a MUCH better 1st half(as compared to Peralta's).

2014

Peralta-2.18 ERA; 3.91 FIP; This would suggest that while Peralta is pitching better, he's had some very good luck.

Fernandez-2.44 ERA; 2.13 FIP(best in the league). This suggest that while Fernandez has been very good, he's actually pitched BETTER than his ERA suggests.

 

Fernandez-.94 Whip; 6.3 H/9, .7 HR/9, 2.23 BB/9, 12.2 K/9, 5.38 SO/BB ratio.

Peralta- 1.23 whip; 8.9 H/9, 1/1 HR/9, 2.2 BB/9, 6.9 SO/9, 3.14 SO/BB ratio.

 

Oh, and AGAIN, Fernandez is 21 and Peralta is 24.

 

So please explain how "by my measure," or anybody's that Fernandez has been as good as Peralta since the 2nd half of last year?

 

Peralta is improving and he's pitched really well this year. That's incredibly encouraging for the Brewer sake and I hope that he continues to do so, but you're redefining the term homer here by arguing that Peralta is better than Fernandez. And Peralta is not an ace. We hope he develops into one, but he is certainly not one yet. Having faith that the players you root for are going to improve and become good players when they're young is fine. Stating that one player is better than another over a period of time, even a short one, when he's worse in literally every single statistical category is fantasy.

[HiAndTight]

Go by what Peralta did over the second half of last year to this point. That's where you start. He's an ace. I stand by what I said.

 

Be careful of the small sample, or of taking one small subset out of a larger sample to try to prove a point. At any point in any MLB player's career, you can take out a half season of stats where he looked really good or really bad.

 

I like Peralta and he is the Brewers' current best hope to have an "ace of staff," but he hasn't proven he's there yet. He's certainly not at Fernandez's level, as Fernandez is in the King Felix realm. That's not a knock on Peralta, it's just that almost no one is at Fernandez's level. As far as trade value, Fernandez is probably where Ryan Braun was right after he signed the 8-year/$40MM deal. It would take an MLB player like Trout, or a team like the Astros or Cardinals emptying out their farm in order to land him. Him & Stanton together??? Not gonna happen, and certainly not by the Brewers.

 

The Marlins m.o. is to stockpile young talent, and when it looks like the young talent is ready they sign some big names and win a World Series before they blow it up and start over. They have a lot of young talent who are starting to put it together. They could be about ready to add a few big names to make a run, but they aren't going to add the big name by trading away their top two young players. That makes no sense.

 

If you are looking for a potential suitor for Braun, you should look at the bigger money teams with good farm systems who are looking to win now and are willing to trade a group of prospects for a veteran. That's a fairly small list. Maybe the Red Sox and Cardinals?

 

 

Yes, yes and yes. Even with Fernandez having to have Tommy John surgery, the way players come back from it now, sometimes even stronger than before, the list of players in all of baseball who are as valuable as him is a very-very short one.