Yost's last stand?

[mpepy05]

My expectations going into the season were lower than many, I expected low 80's wins and a 2nd place finish BECAUSE its a bad division. If we get through the season relatively injury free and can't make 81 wins I could see them getting rid of Yost. I don't think this team has the talent/experience to consider the season a failure if we don't reach the playoffs though, even in a bad division.

 

Well good. Cus' this team will finish under .500 again. So I guess you can kiss Yost goodbye.

[Ennder]

Quote:

---

Well, then at what point does Doug Melvin start getting looked at?

---

 

When he starts to make bad moves. Its not what you want to hear but you still do need to have patience. The players are mostly in place to be a good team now but its still going to take some time for them to gain the experience to become a good team.

 

We have a lineup most nights that includes five hitters who have not even seen two full years worth of PA's in the majors yet, it takes most hitters a good 1500 AB's to fully mature in the big leagues, thats around 2.5-3 full years of playtime.

 

As bad as this bit of baseball seems its still only a few wins off the expected pace for this team given the competition. This is not a team that is going to play .500 ball against good teams, especially on the road and we have only played a single team that should be under .500 since the bad streak started.

[sbrylski]

Honestly, if we don't start succeeding soon, somebody has to be held accountable, because all of the excuses have run out. I don't care much for the "we're not that good or talented, and that's just kind of the way it is" attitude. If the guys we have had running the show for a number of years just can't find a way to get the job done, bring in somebody else.

 

Just a friendly reminder that we are in first place by a very respectable margin. And to expect the same preformances out of some of our recently underpreforming players for the rest of the season, despite showing in the past they are better than that, is just being pessimistic. It'll improve, we'll win some more games.

[logan82]

The only team with a bigger division lead than we have right now is Boston. With how St. Louis and Chicago are playing we couldn't give away the division if we wanted to. We would have to loose every game for the next 3 weeks for them to catch up.

[iluvlamp]

I guess I like to pretend that Yost makes stupid bullpen moves. Overall I have had no problem with his lineups and/or offensive strategies. I will say the lineups are getting to me this year during the slide. I have liked his use of the platoon. But, that was earlier. That lineup tonight was just crap. Crap!

[DougJones43]

Just a friendly reminder that we are in first place by a very respectable margin.

 

I've acknowledged that many times. I was responding to a post that stated the Brewers aren't actually very good or talented, and shouldn't really be expected to get more than a second place finish in a bad division, with a win total in the low 80's.

 

Other teams have put together very good ballclubs in less time with less money. Therefore, I personally don't find the above-mentioned results acceptable (particularly after a 24-10 start), and was saying somebody needs to be held accountable if those are the results, rather than just writing it off as "it is what it is."

[logan82]

How was Yost's lineup bad tonight? He gave Braun an extra day of rest. Other than that there was nothing out of the ordinary.

[Time for a Miller]

I have a difficult question for all the Yost haters who think he does not manage the bullpen well. What should we do with our closer who has blown the last two saves. I think Yost should stick with him, but if he blows another save, or even two, people who have the luxury of hindsight, which is always 20/20, will say we should have let him setup a game before returning to the closers role. They will then proceed to call for Yost's head saying he needs the to be axed etc. etc.

 

So attention to all the lazy-boy managers out there. How about you make some tough managorial calls before the results.

[DougJones43]

When he starts to make bad moves.

 

It's time that the quality of his moves be judged on how many victories they produce.

 

 

Its not what you want to hear but you still do need to have patience.

 

Yep, that's actually true. I'm sick of being told I need to sit patiently. It's been long enough. Other teams have been rebuilt into winners in less than the amount of time Melvin has had, against better competition and with similar payrolls.

 

 

We have a lineup most nights that includes five hitters who have not even seen two full years worth of PA's in the majors yet

 

Yeah, but those guys aren't really the problem. Prince, Hardy, Braun, and Hart have really been the only reason we have been as successful as we have. Prince is having an MVP season. It's the other hacks Melvin has assembled around them that have been causing us to lose.

 

 

This is not a team that is going to play .500 ball against good teams

 

And you seriously aren't bothered by that?

[DougJones43]

...if he blows another save, or even two, people who have the luxury of hindsight, which is always 20/20, will say we should have let him setup a game before returning to the closers role.

 

What? Your making up pretend scenarios and stuff that people would say is supposed to prove what exactly?

 

 

So attention to all the lazy-boy managers out there. How about you make some tough managorial calls before the results.

 

Lots of people do. Check out some of the in-game threads. Other times, people offer statistical or logical evidence as to why they think something didn't make sense. Most of the time, people don't simply point to the end result as the reason why something was a good or bad decision.

[danzig6767]

Yost is an average manager, I don't really see a reason to fire him but I don't think the team is going to somehow be significantly worse if we switch managers next season. I'm just overall pretty indifferent.

 

If we could hypothetically pick 5 MLB managers out of a hat and had each one manage the team,my guess is our record would be close to the same with each guy.I'm not a believer that baseball managers are all that important unless they are really bad like in the case of Lopes.

 

Baseball is so much more of an individual game vs other sports like football/basketball/hockey.More thinking and planning goes into a few plays in a football game than a whole game of baseball.It's batter hit ball,pitcher make good or bad pitch,and fielder make the play or miss it.In 90-95% of the things that happen during a baseball game,a manager has very little impact.

[Time for a Miller]

Yes, DougJones, sometimes people do make the right calls and sometimes they do not. I apologize for the sweeping generalizations, but if Brewerfan has taught us nothing it's that often times, if not always, baseball statistics can be spun to say X was a bad move or X was a good move without even including day-to-day factors such as Braun's lingering wrist injury. My hypothetical argument (sounds smarter then pretend scenario doesn't it http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif ) in regards to Cordero probably should be addressed in a seperate thread. I was just attempting to point out what many people seem to do. That is blame Yost for making poor decisions after the fact. I was attempting to make Yost-haters take a stance before CoCo is given another oppurtunity since Yost will undoubtedly stick with him, the right move to make IMO. However, if this move proves unsuccessful then the anti-Yostenites will be crawling out of the woodwork.

[bigredrobbo]

All I can say is, thank goodness we are winning the division. I don't want to even imagine the carnage around here if we were cellar dwellars right now.

 

We get more like Cubs fans every day...

[jason21nl]

We get more like Cubs fans every day...

 

 

what does this even mean? because people get down on their team for losing? because people expect more from there team? Because people expect more from a manager? I can't stand comments like that because they don't make any sense to me. It goes back to the, its ok the that the Brewers lost because the cubs lost too. Why compare everything to what the cubs do?

[mikerollins]

How about because it's a long season. Teams have good months. Teams have bad months. The goal is to have more good than bad so that when the invite teams to the post season..you are one of the 8 that they ask.

 

Luckily, the Brewers have good leadership who doesn't panic like some crazy fans. This will pay off big time.

 

Despite going 10-20 in the last 30 games, they are still 5.5 games up in the division.

 

They WILL get hot again. It's the major leagues, everyone gets hot. The biggest key during this rough stretch is the Brewers have managed to win a game in EVERY single series (excluding SD) which has kept the losing streaks short and the damage in the standings minimal. This is a reflection of the manager.

[Ennder]

Quote:

---

And you seriously aren't bothered by that?

---

 

Nope. I think you really overestimate this team based on the 24-10 or something. This team is still in its growth phase whether you like it or not. They have a nice young core formed that is going to be here for a few years, its not like the team is going to be disassembled next year and must win this one.

 

I'm sorry your tired of waiting for a winning team but it does take time and when Melvin took this team over it had about two major league players and no payroll. He has done a better job rebuilding it than I've ever seen any GM do with a team like this.

 

If the team can play over .500 against mediocre and bad teams and .400 or so against good teams it should win around 83-85 games which is what I thought it would. That very well could see us in the playoffs.

[RU Rah Rah]

I've never had strong feelings about Yost either way. He seems like a serviceable guy -- neither horrible nor HOF material. I kind of doubt that ditching him in favor of someone else would have a huge impact on the team.

 

However . . . let's say, for the sake of argument, we get to the All-Star break and the team is just kind of treading water, maybe a couple of games under .500 but still in contention in the Central. You could make the argument that making a switch then might lift the team out of the doldrums somehow, in an intangible mojo kind of way. (I don't know why, but sometimes it happens.)

 

Will that happen? No. It would take a total, utter, horrific collapse for Mark A. to make a switch in mid-season.

[sbrylski]

You could make the argument that making a switch then might lift the team out of the doldrums somehow, in an intangible mojo kind of way. (I don't know why, but sometimes it happens.)

 

It could kill team spirit too. They like him.

[Fatter than Joey]

Cherry Picking through the thread....

 

The only team with a bigger division lead than we have right now is Boston.

 

This means nothing. If we were in the AL East we would be buried in 2nd-3rd place without strong hopes for the WC. The 2nd team in the NL Central would be in last place in many divisions. I don't think that STL or the Cubs are going to be playing at a .444 clip here on out.

 

We get more like Cubs fans every day...

 

Yourself included? -- This is not necessary -- There are obviously 2 camps here, both with reasonable points of view. Why can't someone be concerned about the Brewers recent trends, and Yost's abilities without getting their fandom called out?

 

If we could hypothetically pick 5 MLB managers out of a hat and had each one manage the team,my guess is our record would be close to the same with each guy.

 

I keep hearing this -- and I think if you keep this argument to gameday decisions (bunt/hit away) or (steal/H&R) you are probably right -- I have heard estimates that there is about a 3-5 game spread between managers, and that is probably correct.

 

However, I think managers can make a long-term impact on a team as well that can hurt a team years down the road -- I would point to Dusty Baker burning out Cubs arms. For Yost I would point to not getting Hart more ABs last year -- certainly Yost has done some good things as well... but I do think managers do make a difference, on both short and long terms.

 

I have a difficult question for all the Yost haters who think he does not manage the bullpen well. What should we do with our closer who has blown the last two saves.

 

I don't think anyone here expected that CoCo would go the entire season with a .030 ERA and perfect in save attempts. I am betting most people here would give the ball to CoCo tomorrow without thinking 2x about it. He was very overdue to give up a lead.

 

Even in the game he gave up 4 ER, -- He got ahead of most of the batters 0-2 -- Fielder botched a play at first -- CoCo didn't get "shelled" -- he just gave up some fluky singles -- it happens.

 

This is not a team that is going to play .500 ball against good teams,

 

I agree with this, and in a large part should be a reason that we look at replacing Yost at the end of the year (assuming we end up sub .500).

 

Yost is one of the better managers in the game and will be with the Brewers for many more years.

 

What allows people to say this? -- Certainly not his career winning percentage. He has never finished a season over .500. This statement just seems very unqualified to me. If you like Yost, and how he handles the team -- that is a very reasonable point of view, however what seriously allows us to consider Yost a top-flight manager.

 

I flipped through Baseball Reference and looked at the current managers. Check this out.

**********************************

Gardenhire - 4 1st place finishes, career winning pct. better than Yost (BTY)

Francona - WS winner, career BTY

Torre -- clearly BTY

Gibbons -- 1 season over .500, career BTY

Wedge -- 1 season over .500, career BTY

Leyland -- clearly BTY

Guillen -- WS title, 3 season over .500, career BTY

Scoscia -- Clearly BTY

Hargrove -- 5 first place finishes, career BTY

Cox -- Clearly BTY

Randolph -- 2 first place finishes, career BTY

Manuel -- 5 out of 6 seaons over .500, career BTY

Tracy -- 1 first place, career BTY

Garner -- WS appearance, career BTY

Pinella -- 4 1st place finishes, career BTY

Bochy -- 3 1st place finishes, career BTY

Little -- Never under .500, career BTY

Melvin -- 1 first place finish, career BTY

 

Exempt -- Washington, Geren, Gonzalez, Acta, Black

ETY -- Narron

WTY -- Perlozzo, Maddon, Buddy Bell, Hurdle

******************************************

Now -- Historically, Yost does not stack up that well, -- and again, please understand my question is "Why can we claim Yost to be a top manager."

 

1.) Just because a team like the Mets has $$$, doesn't mean Randolph is worse than Yost. I really doubt that Yost would have done as well in NYM than Randolph has (IMO).

 

2.) Rest Assured there are plenty of examples in the BTY group, where a manager has taken a crappy team and turned them into a playoff or even .500+ team. Sometimes I get the impression that people think that Yost is the first manager ever to inherit a crappy team. There have been equally as crappy teams that have been transformed faster.

 

I certainly think it would be a mistake to fire Yost in the middle of the season -- but I am not sure what he has done to get all sorts of free passes.

[foamboy1]

I'm a Yost fan generally....but think this team needs some new energy and I'm willing to sacrific Ned to do so. I seem to recall Buck Rogers being fired during the season the last time we went to a World Series. Wasn't that the case?

[Jacob008]

Quote:

---

What allows people to say this?

---

Mostly gut. Pretty hard to separate the team play with/without the manager and estimate how good a team really is. For me, if the manager puts the team in the best position to win by getting out of the way, and adds a sprinkle of surprise they are a good manager. If you are putting guys in positions to fail you are a bad manager. Yost, has, in my opinion been a poor manager, however, i think he's having a very good year. Other than your own criteria for judging a manager it's pretty difficult to objectively compare them.

 

Quote:

---

Certainly not his career winning percentage. He has never finished a season over .500.

---

 

While that's a neat list, it doesn't say a whole lot. I certainly wouldn't use career winning percentage. Honestly, I think a manager's most valuable asset is getting your guys to play for you, squeezing a little extra from them. Second is not playing crazy baseball. Yost seems good on the first account...

[Barbs4339]

I took small issue with sitting Braun. Our offense is struggling and he needs to be in there. I also took issue with Gross as our DH again. He is awful right now and should not see the field for awhile. I would rather see Mench or Gwynn as the DH. Lastly, I took issue with not pinch hitting in the 9th for either Counsell or Graffy just to mix it up and try to get something going. We were only down 4 and basically just gave up. Please put Hart back at leadoff until Weeks is back and healthy.

[Postseason2006]

Quote:

---

When he starts to make bad moves.

---

 

So not addressing the worst bullpen in baseball with Wise, Turnbow, Spurling, and Shouse doesn't cut it? Please.

 

Anyone defending Yost for leading off Counsell and Crappy are dillunsional and need treatment. The Royals don't even stick crap like that one and two.

[Brian the Automator]

[ Anyone defending Yost for leading off Counsell and Crappy are dillunsional and need treatment. The Royals don't even stick crap like that one and two. ]

 

I would ask that you respect other peoples' opinions on this site, even if you vehemently disagree with them.

[Ennder]

Quote:

---

I took small issue with sitting Braun. Our offense is struggling and he needs to be in there. I also took issue with Gross as our DH again. He is awful right now and should not see the field for awhile. I would rather see Mench or Gwynn as the DH. Lastly, I took issue with not pinch hitting in the 9th for either Counsell or Graffy just to mix it up and try to get something going. We were only down 4 and basically just gave up. Please put Hart back at leadoff until Weeks is back and healthy.

---

 

Problem is those are just opinions. Sitting a rookie every other week is a smart move, sitting him against a tough righty is the proper time to do it. I have no problem at all with sitting Braun one game.

 

I'd have taken issue with Mench being DH against a righty. Gwynn is 2 for his last 13 with 5 K's, not exactly like he's been hitting well either.

 

There is no reason at all to pinch hit for Counsell when down by 4, he is 4th on the team in OBP and you'd rather leave a guy in there that already has seen Verlander a few times than pinch hit someone cold off the bench in general. Pinch hitting Braun for Graffy would have been fine in my book.

 

So much of what makes Yost a 'bad manager' in peoples opinion seem to just be random complaints based on opinion. There are times that he just makes a really boneheaded move like batting Estrada 5th so long but he's not anywhere near as bad as people make him out to be.

 

Quote:

---

So not addressing the worst bullpen in baseball with Wise, Turnbow, Spurling, and Shouse doesn't cut it? Please

---

 

We have far from the worst bullpen in baseball. We have the 7th best bullpen ERA in the NL and only two teams are significantly better than us, SD and LAD. Our bullpen has the 4th best OPS allowed in the NL, the 4th most K's, the 5th fewers BB's.