Yosted...Sure Don't Miss This

[brwrsfan]

I know many on this board are familiar with the term "Yosted", as it was discussed in great detail how bad Ned Yost was at bullpen management and costing us games. For some reason, it's now finally reaching the national level:

 

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/ned-yost-greg-holland-using-closers-in-tied-road-games/

 

Not that RR is great at this, but he's certainly not to the Ned Yost level of incompetency.

[TURBO]

 

Not that RR is great at this, but he's certainly not to the Ned Yost level of incompetency.

 

THAT is debatable...

 

 

Even with RRR at the helm, we still get Yosted... I don't see much of a difference between them actually.

 

Maybe we should call it RRR'd? Roenicked?

[JohnBriggs12]

Roenicke has his Yost moments. Sunday was a perfect example pulling the very sharp Will Smith in a one run game for Brandon Kintzler, who not unlike the KC example, is still not in his groove after a DL stint. Roenicke's rationale? Saving Smith so he could use him in the 7th inning the following night with a 5 run lead. Geesh. Last night was the perfect spot for getting Kintzler back on track, not using arguably your best setup guy.

[brwrsfan]

True...RR certainly has his moments. It just seemed to me that with Yost, he did it EVERY game. Like leaving Dave Bush in the game one inning two long...every time he started.

[Thurston Fluff]

The article said Yost is doing what every other manager does. Why is it Yosting if everyone does it and has been doing it long before Yost even became a manager? That whole article had less to do with Yost and more to do with the situation where it seems every fan thinks every manager is wrong. That might be the case but what does that have to do with one manager being so much worse for making the same bad decision?

[TooLiveBrew]

 

Not that RR is great at this, but he's certainly not to the Ned Yost level of incompetency.

 

THAT is debatable...

 

 

Even with RRR at the helm, we still get Yosted... I don't see much of a difference between them actually.

 

Maybe we should call it RRR'd? Roenicked?

Oof. I know you (& others) really don't like Roenicke. But imho it's just objectively true that Ron doesn't come anywhere near Ned in terms of the face-palming decisions.

[fondybrewfan]

The single worst managerial move in the history of bullpen management still is the decision to have Brian Shouse intentionally walk Ryan Howard to face a right hander. I could never find even the semblance of logic behind that move. This site pretty much went berserk after that game; although thankfully I have forgotten some of the other details

[TURBO]

The article said Yost is doing what every other manager does. Why is it Yosting if everyone does it and has been doing it long before Yost even became a manager? That whole article had less to do with Yost and more to do with the situation where it seems every fan thinks every manager is wrong. That might be the case but what does that have to do with one manager being so much worse for making the same bad decision?

 

This is exactly what I thought... Not sure why Yost was the brunt of the article when it basically said that all managers are guilty of the same thing.

[Eastside Jim]

Beyond a few instances of not using Wong (like last night) I have no idea how there is any problem with how the bullpen is used. Over time there will be some lopsided games and they will get more rest. But when you are in close games and winning alot you are going to use your best guys. No sure I see a problem with that.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Yost was terrible at leaving a starter in 1 inning too long, and not having a reliever warming up to start that inning...so by the time he actually brought a reliever in, the starter had either already given up more runs or got himself into a terrible jam.

 

I don't think Yost had the best of bullpen talent to work with which is what led to some of the problems, too. When you take a tiring starter out and bring in the equivalent of a gas can in to try and put out the fire, most of the time it's not going to work. That being said, I remember the combination of questionable bullpen choices and ridiculous double switches being noticeably bad with Nedley more often than not.

 

It's one thing to manage a bullpen 'by the book' and look foolish pulling/inserting relivers based on what inning it is. Every manager does that on occasion. But Yost managed a bullpen by a book that nobody's been able to find, let alone read yet...come to think of it, maybe it's an appendix of the "unwritten rules". That decision with Shouse against the Phillies pretty much got Yost fired because of how crazy it was.

[DuWayne Steurer]

The single worst managerial move in the history of bullpen management still is the decision to have Brian Shouse intentionally walk Ryan Howard to face a right hander. I could never find even the semblance of logic behind that move. This site pretty much went berserk after that game; although thankfully I have forgotten some of the other details

 

 

That used to be my signature. But yeah......there's no rational explanation for what was going through his head there.

[DuWayne Steurer]

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=8077

 

Found it.

 

This article is awesome, and outlines the setup of the Shouse/Burrell/Howard situation perfectly.

[Teatoe993]

I remember Aquino-gate. Pissed me off so bad I had to order up a Yosted t-shirt. I'm glad that shirt still has relevance.

[danzig6767]

The article said Yost is doing what every other manager does. Why is it Yosting if everyone does it and has been doing it long before Yost even became a manager? That whole article had less to do with Yost and more to do with the situation where it seems every fan thinks every manager is wrong.

 

I often used to read forums of other teams and it was funny how many fans of pretty much every forum i ever read thought their manager was an idiot.

 

Well, after the Brewers hot start i took a peek at the Cardinals, Pirates, and Reds forums. A bunch of Pirates fans were ripping Hurdle and calling him a clueless idiot who had no idea how to use a bullpen, challenge calls, and various other things. The one one that surprised me a bit, but probably shouldn't have was the Cardinals forum. The level of hate for Matheny was incredible. One thread after another blaming him for losses, saying he was utterly incompetent, and the worst manager in baseball by far.

 

So that's just how the vast majority of baseball forums are when it comes to managers. Regardless if a baseball team is winning or losing, bashing the manager a lot is much more the norm than a manager being reasonably like by more posters than disliked or hated. The same holds true for most football and basketball head coaches.

[adambr2]

I would be willing to bet that if Yost had the 6th ranked bullpen and Roenicke the 25th, Yost would look a lot smarter and Roenicke less so. Roenicke didn't become a bullpen genius, I still remember him talking about how Loe is "our 8th inning guy". He just has better options now.

 

With that said, I give him a lot of credit for going to K-Rod as his closer off the bat this year. It would have been easy and excusable to say "Henderson did the job well last year, he's our closer til proven otherwise". And that might have saved us losses by now.

[monty57]

Bullpen management is always going to be scrutinized by fans, and the manager really can't win. This season, we have four starters (Thornburg, Smith, Wang and Duke) in the pen. That should mean we could let some guys go multiple innings more often to rest the other guys in the pen. Smith and Duke also seem capable of getting lefties and righties out, so neither needs to be placed in the "situational lefty" role. We are short on RHP and Wang never gets used, so we're short-handed overall. All in all, while every manager will have a bone-headed move every now and then, I can't fault Roenicke much for his bullpen management.

 

I will repeat my praise for his player management decisions in pulling Henderson from the closer role before he ever threw a pitch because he knew he didn't have his stuff. Most managers would let him fail a few times before making the move. He's also given more PAs to the better players in the platoon situation (Reynolds and Weeks). He did put Herrera and Reynolds in RF, but those were the cards he was dealt. Since Gindl's up, he's playing him over Schafer (the more known commodity) in RF which I think is the better call, and replacing him with double-switches to get Schafer's better defense in late in games. When only a few players are hitting, you've got to do what you can to help the pitcher.

 

His "let them play" mentality seems to be liked by the players, and while it can lead to bad base-running and more strikeouts, it's part of the reason the Brewers got so many HR and SB last year. Every manager is going to draw fan frustration, but after years of Yost and Macha, I'll let the occasional bone-headed calls by Roenicke go and say that overall he's doing a fine job.

[SRB]

Incompetence or not, I have a certain sense of nostalgia for the Yost Years. (Macha, not so much...)

[brewcrewdue80]

Bullpen management is always going to be scrutinized by fans, and the manager really can't win. This season, we have four starters (Thornburg, Smith, Wang and Duke) in the pen. That should mean we could let some guys go multiple innings more often to rest the other guys in the pen. Smith and Duke also seem capable of getting lefties and righties out, so neither needs to be placed in the "situational lefty" role. We are short on RHP and Wang never gets used, so we're short-handed overall. All in all, while every manager will have a bone-headed move every now and then, I can't fault Roenicke much for his bullpen management.

.

 

 

Yes he could let those guys go multiple innings. 2ip at least. But then when are they available again? 1 day off? Or 2? Now you run in to a situation where you need a Righty out of the pen come the 8th inning and Thornburg/Kintzler/Wooten were used up in the 5th-7th innings. Duke was brought in to get a lefty out to finish the 7th inning. Smith went 2ip the previous day and isn't available. You turn to KRod?

 

The concern with running pitchers multiple innings to give a few other guys rest for a day, can set you up with needing that particular guy and he's unable to be used. When really using Smith for 1 ip and 1 other RP for the other 1ip could have worked where you can still use them both out of the bullpen the next day.

 

Now you could go my thinking that a guy can go 2 ip/ Smith 7-8 one night. Thornburg the other 7-8ip the next night. Except when they give up 2ERs in their outing do you question him then? Why didn't he turn to the pen for help? Oh because hes the idiot who employs using guys multiple innings every other game to get to KRod or finish it. And when it doesn't work it turns awful.

 

Not an enviable position to honestly be the decision maker on. Arm-Chair Managers don't know how the RP core says they are feeling on a day to day basis.

 

Now the article was about using your closer in a tie game while on the road meaning if he does his job, you play extra innings...Do you bring your closer back out for the 10th? Now he goes 2ip in a tie game and your team loses in the 11th. The next two days your team now has the lead and the first day you can't use your closer because he went 2ip the night prior in a TIE GAME. The DeFacto closer that night blows the game. 0-2. The following day you do use your closer but it's apparent he's not sharp. Why? the 2IP a couple days ago? He blows the game. 0-3. That manager needs to be FIRED!!!! 3 winnable games and it's blown because he used his closer in a tie game because he doesn't have faith another guy in the pen can't come in the 9th inning and hold the game to send to extra innings. Right?

 

It's a Lose-Lose thing being a Manager. I'm not justifying those managers are right to never use their Closer in those 9th inning tied game. It really depends on the opponent, who's coming to bat in the order. I'd hope RRR uses KRod in the situation vs. the Cardinals or Reds when the top of the order is coming up or #s 2-4. But in a game on the road vs. say Colorado? Or any HR hitter Friendly non-Central opponent. I'd trust my pen to go out there get it done and save KRod for what he's destined to do....close games. Not extend them.

[adambr2]

Incompetence or not, I have a certain sense of nostalgia for the Yost Years. (Macha, not so much...)

 

I kind of agree simply because Yost was so entertaining even when we were not good. If the cameras panned to him in the dugout, you were pretty much guaranteed to get a shot of him either grabbing his breasts or baring his teeth.

 

Not to mention his post-game press conferences were hilarious. Not that he meant for them to be.

[ebmackenzie]

BHall DHing in Boston and batting 9th was a gem as was allowing CC Sabathia to go over 130 pitches up 9-0...

 

BTW, we are getting Roenicke'd by having this post-DL Kintzler pitch in key situations...he is not what he was..recognize it and adjust accordingly. 5/6/2014's game was given away.

[The stache]

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=8077

 

Found it.

 

This article is awesome, and outlines the setup of the Shouse/Burrell/Howard situation perfectly.

 

Wow, that was an entertaining read. Thank you, RoCoBrewfan!

[Fear The Chorizo]

That was a rough weekend to be a Brewer fan...I remember listening to that game, particularly as that inning unfolded, while fishing at the family cabin. One of the few times I've heard my father drop the 'F' bomb happened that day, and I think we both fought the urge to pull the plug out of the boat and sink it so we had other things to worry about than listening to the Crew go down in flames that September.

 

Thank goodness for the Mets being the Mets to end that season!

[Nottso]

 

That used to be my signature. But yeah......there's no rational explanation for what was going through his head there.

 

And it just may have been THE greatest signature line ever.

 

Edit: For those that weren't around, his signature was a quote from the linked article, which read: "That's when you start looking around the roof of the stadium for snipers, because gunpoint is the only place where that kind of decision makes sense."

[HiAndTight]

Roenicke has his Yost moments. Sunday was a perfect example pulling the very sharp Will Smith in a one run game for Brandon Kintzler, who not unlike the KC example, is still not in his groove after a DL stint. Roenicke's rationale? Saving Smith so he could use him in the 7th inning the following night with a 5 run lead. Geesh. Last night was the perfect spot for getting Kintzler back on track, not using arguably your best setup guy.

 

 

I'm guessing that Roenicke never gave any such reason for using Smith since it was pretty straight forward why he used him, but if he said after that game that he had saved him as he was planning on using him the following day, then please correct me. If he simply used him the next day and therefore you're extrapolating what his rationale must have been, then that's pretty misleading. It was a better matchup all things being equal. You have a pitcher who's been a very good lefty SU man and a very good RH'ed SU man, how much can you complain that they used the lefty vs the two lefties and the right hander vs the 4th hitter who was a right hander? And in the KC example, it was a pitcher who was on the DL early in the year AND who saw limited PT last year. Kintlzer was our most used reliever last year.

 

 

 

I often used to read forums of other teams and it was funny how many fans of pretty much every forum i ever read thought their manager was an idiot.

 

I've done the same and found the exact same thing myself. I've always believed the difference in managers is negligible. They almost always do the same thing, and almost every fan base hates theirs when they're not winning what they think they should.

 

Not everyone sounds as dumb as Dusty Baker and Joe Morgan, but most managers run their teams the way Baker runs his or Morgan...probably would.

 

This was always my "defense," of Yost. He's not much different than anyone else. Though I can't defend the historically stupid Shouse IBB of Howard move. But generally speaking. I doubt RR would be bunting as much if he had Trout, Pujols, and company in his lineup and didn't have to have a pitcher hit.

 

 

Yost's biggest problem IMO was how he could be so condescending and sound like such a jerk when answering some of these questions.

[TURBO]

I will never, ever, EVER forgive or understand starting Kotsay in CF in a playoff game with that kind of magnitude.

 

NEVER can that move be justified for any sane reason. It is that move that defines the disgust I feel toward RRR as our manager. It is that move that should have cemented his walking papers, but here he is...

 

As a fan, I will never be able to get over that singular move.