The Scuffling Cardinals

[logan82]

Without going into detailed stats, this team bears no resemblance to the three years previous. Molina and "Big City" Adams are the only regulars that don't appear lost at the plate.

 

Matt Carpenter has committed many errors (several ruled hits) in spite of the fact that he's supposed to be a true 3rd sacker. Peralta and Bourjos are sub-Mendoza, opening the door for Jon Jay and Descalso to get more playing time, which can't be a good thing.

 

Losing 3 of 4 to the Mets is troubling, to say the least.

Their pitching should keep them in contention all season, but last year for all of the gushing about just how "clutch" the Cardinals are because of their incredible stats with RISP, it should have been predictable that it couldn't be repeated.

 

They have a good team, but it was fluke more than anything to hit so well lat year with RISP. If something like that was repeatable, we'd see other teams do it over multiple seasons. As i said though, if their rotation stays healthy along with their key position players, i'd be surprised to not see St. Louis in the playoff mix come September. Any rotation with a healthy Wainwright, Wacha, Miller, Lynn, and Kelly should end up winning at minimum 85 games.

Even if the Cards offense was average in the clutch they would have still been one of the best offenses in the NL. The difference in runs between the Cards and the next best offense was the same as between the second best offense and the 10th best offense so let's not fall into thinking it was all luck.

[torts]

no offense, but I am quite alright with this

LOL....but you better keep an eye on those Redlegs. In spite of awful hitting and sub par fielding by Brandon Phillips they closed out the series with the Bucs winning 3 straight, which closed the basement gap with the Cubbies.

 

I know it's awfully soon but could the Phoenix that was the Pirates be in it's death throes?

 

well it is only april, but I think the Pirates will be .500 or so this year but will be much better next, similar to the ebb and flow the brewers had when they finally broke the losing run

[Dead Simmons]

DeadSimmons: Can I ask how you came up with your screen name?

I wanted to use a name that was familiar with Milwaukee fans, but mix it with St. Louis. I considered several like Lindy Mc Daniel, Joe Torre and old Red Sheondienst but decided that they were too old for 30 something fans, not students of the game to catch the reference.

 

So since Ted was my favorite Cardinal from the '70's I picked him. The only thing I could think of at the time that rhymed was "dead". As soon as I was finished registering I realized that RED would have been a much better first name choice, mixing the team color with the greatest pre-all star game 2nd baseman of his era, the still alive and kicking Albert "Red" Sheondienst.

 

Too late now!

 

P.S. Pre-allstar because he was playing with tuberculosis for years before it was diagnosed. By mid-season he would by shot and taper off to to a .260, decent fielding player. Recuperating over the winter he would come back in Spring and start hitting .350, stealing bases and flashing some damn fine leather. For that reason he was voted to the ASG the most in his era as the writers would forget how average he became after July.

 

I think he and Aaron and Torre are the only surviving "big name" players left from the great Braves teams of the '50's. (at least all I can think of)

[Dead Simmons]

What's the over/under in days on this thread being bumped to remind someon of their foolish talk? I love this team as much as the next guy, but I don't see us leading dang near wire to wire.

Wire to wire leading is exceedingly rare. Atlanta pulled it off a couple of times in the '90's, but how often does a team have a Smoltz, Maddux and Glavine?

 

But see here Schneider.... don't go throwing cold water on this thing!

[dlk9s]

and people thought I was nuts when I predicted the Brewers to win the NL central

.

[Dead Simmons]

and people thought I was nuts when I predicted the Brewers to win the NL central

.

....I wondered who would jump on that one.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Even though it was the correct decision not to pay an aging Beltran what the Yankees gave him, The Cards' miss his bat in the middle of their lineup, especially hitting from the left side. They have to be hoping Taveras isn't going to be in AAA much longer.

 

Only the Padres and Mets have lower slugging percentages as a team so far this season...the Cards have all kinds of pitching, but I think right now their MLB roster doesn't have enough impact bats with proven MLB track records. I expect them to add that via trade if anyone worth dealing for becomes available...their system is deep enough in arms to make that sort of move.

[whizkid]

I think he and Aaron and Torre are the only surviving "big name" players left from the great Braves teams of the '50's. (at least all I can think of)

 

Torre was from the '60s. Del Crandall is still with us. While not 'big' names, Gene Conley, Felix Mantilla and Don McMahon are still around too.

[Dead Simmons]

Even though it was the correct decision not to pay an aging Beltran what the Yankees gave him, The Cards' miss his bat in the middle of their lineup, especially hitting from the left side. They have to be hoping Taveras isn't going to be in AAA much longer.

 

Only the Padres and Mets have lower slugging percentages as a team so far this season...the Cards have all kinds of pitching, but I think right now their MLB roster doesn't have enough impact bats with proven MLB track records. I expect them to add that via trade if anyone worth dealing for becomes available...their system is deep enough in arms to make that sort of move.

On Beltran: have to correct you there Chirizo. Matt Adams took his slack at the plate, as Craig has in the field. (so far)

 

As to hitters with track records, only 2B man Wong lacks one, and I have to think he will hit at least as "good" as Descalso. But you are certainly right that the Cards can't hit a lick right now. And the base running....forget about it!

[Dead Simmons]

I think he and Aaron and Torre are the only surviving "big name" players left from the great Braves teams of the '50's. (at least all I can think of)

 

Torre was from the '60s. Del Crandall is still with us. While not 'big' names, Gene Conley, Felix Mantilla and Don McMahon are still around too.

No...Joe actually was a rookie in Boston!

 

Edit: Del Crandall! Now there's a blast from the past. He was a pretty damn good catcher. No Aaron, but on a par with Red.

[bjkrautk]

Years of collective frustration have taught me not to poke a sleeping Cardinal.

[JohnBriggs12]

I think he and Aaron and Torre are the only surviving "big name" players left from the great Braves teams of the '50's. (at least all I can think of)

 

Torre was from the '60s. Del Crandall is still with us. While not 'big' names, Gene Conley, Felix Mantilla and Don McMahon are still around too.

 

Frank (Joe's brother) Torre was part of the World Series teams in the 50's and he's still around. Torre played significant role in both 57 and 58 in place of oft injured Joe Adcock. Juan Pizarro and Joey Jay are both still around as well. Both were young hurlers with tons of promise that Brave brass back then inexplicably dealt away after the 1960 season because they panicked after Pittsburgh had played way over their heads that year and because Brave brass thought highly of Bob Hendley and Don Nottebart. Wonder why the Braves ended up in Atlanta? There's a lot to it, but had they hung on to Jay and Pizzaro, the team might well have won another pennant or two in succeeding years and Atlanta would have ended up with an expansion team.

[Dead Simmons]

I think he and Aaron and Torre are the only surviving "big name" players left from the great Braves teams of the '50's. (at least all I can think of)

 

Torre was from the '60s. Del Crandall is still with us. While not 'big' names, Gene Conley, Felix Mantilla and Don McMahon are still around too.

 

Frank (Joe's brother) Torre was part of the World Series teams in the 50's and he's still around. Torre played significant role in both 57 and 58 in place of oft injured Joe Adcock. Juan Pizarro and Joey Jay are both still around as well. Both were young hurlers with tons of promise that Brave brass back then inexplicably dealt away after the 1960 season because they panicked after Pittsburgh had played way over their heads that year and because Brave brass thought highly of Bob Hendley and Don Nottebart. Wonder why the Braves ended up in Atlanta? There's a lot to it, but had they hung on to Jay and Pizzaro, the team might well have won another pennant or two in succeeding years and Atlanta would have ended up with an expansion team.

Man, do I ever get a kick out of these types of conversation. (but I'm drawing a blank Nottebart)

 

I must admit that I have no idea why the team moved to Atlanta. Turner's millions?

 

But I do know that the Giants/Dodgers move was jump started by the Braves' relocation. Stoneham wanted out of Manhattan and had tried to move to Minneapolis, home of their AAA Millers. (blocked by the league)

 

O'Malley did not want to leave Brooklyn, but fought a losing battle with a damn fool with power, City Commisioner Robert Moses, over a better location for the park.

 

It has been said that O'Malley swayed Stoneham from fighting the NL for Minneapolis in favor of a joint move to the coast. Both men saw the enormous jump in attendance when The Braves went west, and god knows they were both money grubbing moguls.

[whizkid]

Frank Torre has had a lot of health problems and I really thought he had passed so didn't look it up. Joe's first season in MLB, 2 PAs, was 1960.

[Dead Simmons]

Frank Torre has had a lot of health problems and I really thought he had passed so didn't look it up. Joe's first season in MLB, 2 PAs, was 1960.

 

Really? I had it in my mind that Joe, Aaron and Mathews were the only players that played in all three cities. (am I going senile already?)

[Fear The Chorizo]

Allen Craig's a 1B who's now trying to play OF every day and hitting 0.179 doing so. Last season the Cards got an 0.830 OPS out of Beltran in right and an 0.830 OPS out of Craig at 1B with some OF play sprinkled in. This year Adams is OPS'ing 0.807 so far at 1B and RF is a black hole of offensive production with a career 1B playing the position. It's early and Taveras is the obvious answer to man RF, with Craig settling back in as a platoon partner/bench option for 1B and OF.

 

Right now, the Cards do miss a player like Beltran in the lineup every day. That's likely to change if Taveras is the player everyone thinks he is, and he stays healthy.

 

And I emphasized impact bats with track records, not just solid players with MLB experience. Holliday and Molina, IMO, are the only two hitters in that lineup that have MLB track records of plus production for their positions - and neither of them are likely to hit 30+ HR in a season at this point in their careers. Hitters like Carpenter, Jay, and Craig are good but aren't impact bats, IMO. A guy like Adams has that potential, but he hasn't been around long enough at the MLB level to put up those numbers.

 

And also, at 12-11 I wouldn't call the Cardinals 'scuffling'...slumping offensively, yes, but I would hope there aren't alarm bells going off just yet in STL - that's still a deep and talented team that will inevitably get on a roll. They just don't have an offensive player like 2011 Pujols to anchor the lineup right now.

[whizkid]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/torrejo01.shtml

 

Eddie Mathews was the only player to play in all 3 cities. Aaron's first season was 1954.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

Spahn played a long time in Boston...not sure he made it to Atlanta. Wasn't he with this Mets by then?

[dlk9s]

Without going into detailed stats, this team bears no resemblance to the three years previous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzVFugFcUto

[Dead Simmons]

Allen Craig's a 1B who's now trying to play OF every day and hitting 0.179 doing so. Last season the Cards got an 0.830 OPS out of Beltran in right and an 0.830 OPS out of Craig at 1B with some OF play sprinkled in. This year Adams is OPS'ing 0.807 so far at 1B and RF is a black hole of offensive production with a career 1B playing the position. It's early and Taveras is the obvious answer to man RF, with Craig settling back in as a platoon partner/bench option for 1B and OF.

 

Right now, the Cards do miss a player like Beltran in the lineup every day. That's likely to change if Taveras is the player everyone thinks he is, and he stays healthy.

 

And I emphasized impact bats with track records, not just solid players with MLB experience. Holliday and Molina, IMO, are the only two hitters in that lineup that have MLB track records of plus production for their positions - and neither of them are likely to hit 30+ HR in a season at this point in their careers. Hitters like Carpenter, Jay, and Craig are good but aren't impact bats, IMO. A guy like Adams has that potential, but he hasn't been around long enough at the MLB level to put up those numbers.

 

And also, at 12-11 I wouldn't call the Cardinals 'scuffling'...slumping offensively, yes, but I would hope there aren't alarm bells going off just yet in STL - that's still a deep and talented team that will inevitably get on a roll. They just don't have an offensive player like 2011 Pujols to anchor the lineup right now.

It's a moot point Chirizo, but Craig is a career second baseman. He would be there right now if La Russa had not insisted on the hitless/fieldless wonder Skippy Schumaker "learning" the position.

 

On Pujols in 2011: He led the team in nothing except SB (he and Yadi were the only ones with the green light) and GIDP, where he broke the all time ML record. (he failed to bat .300 for the 1st time too) The writing was on the wall, but the Angels did not read it. In my book, Berkman and Holliday were better, and if you throw in defense, so was Molina.

 

Tho' Jay IS a career minor and major league .300 hitter, I must concede that he and Carp are not proven impact players. But did you really mean that about Craig not being impact?? Without Craig the Cards don't even GET to the playoffs in 2011, and DEFINATELY don't win the WS. He was second only to David Freese in that series.

[Dead Simmons]

Spahn played a long time in Boston...not sure he made it to Atlanta. Wasn't he with this Mets by then?

Sounds about right. I think '64 was his last great year on the mound.

[Dead Simmons]

Without going into detailed stats, this team bears no resemblance to the three years previous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzVFugFcUto

I didn't see that coming. I actually DID laugh out loud.

[Fear The Chorizo]

On Pujols in 2011: He led the team in nothing except SB

 

Pujols actually didn't lead the team in SB that year, but he did lead in HR, RBI, hits, total bases, and runs - and by wide margins in most of those categories...if that's nothing to you than I don't really know how to respond. When 'failing to hit .300 for the first time' is Pujols hitting 0.299, I'm not going to view that as a horrible season, unless it's just compared to the lofty standard he set for himself.

 

Pujols, Berkman and Holliday all had great seasons in 2011 - that team had three full season 900+ OPS hitters, with Molina also having a great year. Craig only got 200 ABs during the regular season but did OPS over .900, and had a great postseason. Since then however he hasn't replicated that production. Craig's career average OPS is 0.827, which is about league average for a 1B, and slightly over league average for a corner OF. That's good, but not 2011 Pujols, Holliday, and Berkman good. If he still played 2B it'd be great, but Craig can't play that position defensively at the big league level every day.

[Dead Simmons]

On Pujols in 2011: He led the team in nothing except SB

 

Pujols actually didn't lead the team in SB that year, but he did lead in HR, RBI, hits, total bases, and runs - and by wide margins in most of those categories...if that's nothing to you than I don't really know how to respond. When 'failing to hit .300 for the first time' is Pujols hitting 0.299, I'm not going to view that as a horrible season, unless it's just compared to the lofty standard he set for himself.

You forced me to go check and see if I'm losing my mind... I am, but I know why I thought 2011 was a disaster year. Not getting 100 RBI or batting .300 for the first time and breaking the GIPD record (while perfectly healthy) and after having so many 40-50 doubles years to only hit 29, and not a single triple.

 

It's the highly paid Holliday that never leads the team in anything and since 2008 has seen his stats creep down in every department, year by year. Two players paid to be superstars that are not putting up any eye popping numbers for years. But thanks for the correction Chorizo.

 

Speaking of Albert, I'm amazed to see how reinvigorated he appears this season. I'm watching the first Angels game of my life right now to check he and Trout out. (both look awesome)

[joepepsi]

Cardinals are now 13-11, .565 winning pct that translates to 91.5 wins for a full season. They are only 4-1/2 games out of first and currently tied for the second wild card spot. So they are right in the area where you'd expect a contender. Unfortunately.