Roenicke is too conservative with challenging plays

[Schlitz001]

Today marked the third time this season that I've noticed RR not challenging on a play that likely would have been overturned. This one was especially mind boggling because it came in the 6th inning with 2 outs. If Ron wins the challenge, the 6th inning continues and he gets another. If he loses the challenge, it's the 7th inning and the umpires will institute replay on close calls.

 

On April 5th in Boston, Gomez was called out at home for the last out of the 4th inning when it looked like he got under the tag. Ron didn't even come out on to the field for this call. The ball beat the runner, but it looked like Gomez got under Pierzynski's tag.

 

On Opening Day, in the 2nd inning, A-Ram was called out at 2nd base on a double play line drive by Overbay. In this case Roenicke came out to talk to Paul Schreiber about the play but never asked to challenge even though replays show that A-Ram was safe.

 

So what is the advantage of NOT using challenge plays? These 3 plays deal with runners in scoring position.

 

The challenge system might not be 100% perfect, but for the first time ever a manager has a chance to get his way on a wrong call. I don't know what the stats are, but I bet that it is more likely that a play gets overturned than it is likely that a manager needs more than 1 challenge play in a game before the 7th inning where the first challenge is overturned.

[DuWayne Steurer]

If you're talking about when Segura got called out......he clearly took his foot off the bag while the tag was still applied. Pretty sure he was 100% out. Bill and BA even agreed that it would have been a waste of time to challenge.

[TooLiveBrew]

Let's keep in mind that we're all of 7 games into the first season where MLB is using a replay & challenge system.

 

Naturally, the first time Roenicke burns his challenge earlier in the game, doesn't get the call overturned, & the replay challenge could've been used late in the game, the majority on this board will crucify him.

[Schlitz001]

I was talking about the Segura play. Even if he was out, is it a huge detriment to the Brewers to challenge in that situation and have it confirmed? I know I'm not the only person who thought he looked safe.

[Baldkin]

He runs out, talks to the ump. Get's the signal from the dugout whether to challenge or not.

 

It's really very simple.

 

I can't speak for the time he didn't bother to go out on the field.

[young guns]

The thing about seguras play the irked me was that it looked like the tag pushed his foot off the bag. I would have challenged it though cause he might have kept his toe on the very edge of the bag and you never know if one of the umps in NY sees it that way. And if youre wrong you only have half an inning till the 7th.

 

I dont know if its ron or just the coach in the both thats looking at the plays and relays if the play should be challenged, but whoever has the last say is being pretty conservative. At some point you need to challenge some of these close ones if only to get a feel for what may or may not be overturned.

[FVBrewerFan]

I guess I have too many other issues with RR to get worked up over how he manages challenges. Something tells me if there was a bad call in the bottom of the 7th, and RR already used his challenge on the Segura play, many of you would be all over him for that. (And yes, Segura was obviously out. Sometimes it's close, this one was not.)

[DHonks]

Ron said that with the Gomez play, they base it on the player. Gomez didn't react like he was shocked. Since they only have 30 seconds to appeal at the end of an inning, it was a tossup. Plus that's like the neighborhood play at 2b. Guys are often called out when they really aren't to avoid worse contact. Not sure the umps would have overturned it. I was screaming and texting friends that we needed to appeal it, but in hindsight that's a tough one.

[brewmann04]

The thing that bothered me was that he did not use wang today with a big lead.I guess 6 run lead in the night was not enough.

[two_three_the_count]

On April 5th in Boston, Gomez was called out at home for the last out of the 4th inning when it looked like he got under the tag. Ron didn't even come out on to the field for this call. The ball beat the runner, but it looked like Gomez got under Pierzynski's tag.

 

He runs out, talks to the ump. Get's the signal from the dugout whether to challenge or not.

 

It's really very simple.

 

I can't speak for the time he didn't bother to go out on the field.

 

Anybody else catch the April 5th post game interview? RRR basically said that they had three camera angles on the play and that one of them showed Gomez as safe. He also said that he didn't go out there because he hates going out onto the field every time there's a close play.

 

He wasn't scrutinized for it since they went on to win the game, but come on. You got the chance to get your team a run, all you got to do is go out on the field.

[Schlitz001]

I just went back and watched the Segura play several times again and it really looks like his foot never came off the base. The last replay angle from the 1st base side is the most definitive. His hand and foot are on the bag at the same time while he is sliding and when his hand leaves the bag he drags his foot over the base and on to the side of it, never leaving the base. I would repost the mlb.tv footage, but I don't have express written consent of Major League Baseball.

 

According to MLB, last year the umpires never missed two calls against the same team in the same game. This should be support enough that it is worth it to challenge very close plays, especially later in the game and especially when it pertains to runners in scoring position.

 

Not every call is going to get overturned, but that's not a great reason to not at least challenge some of the really close ones.

 

EDIT: On the Phillies feed of the Segura play, the Phillies announcers think that Roenicke is getting the signal from the dugout to challenge the play. They show the guy on the phone in the dugout and he looks a little bit confused as he is about to hang up the phone and then picks it up again. There might have been some confusion on whether or not to challenge in that case.

[FVBrewerFan]

According to MLB, last year the umpires never missed two calls against the same team in the same game.

 

Yes according to MLB. Seems impossible that they may be a little less than objective? Reminds me of when we graded our own papers in grade school. Then again MLB was right when they said PEDs weren't a problem.

[dlk9s]

I guess I have too many other issues with RR to get worked up over how he manages challenges. Something tells me if there was a bad call in the bottom of the 7th, and RR already used his challenge on the Segura play, many of you would be all over him for that. (And yes, Segura was obviously out. Sometimes it's close, this one was not.)

Managers can't challenge in the 7th inning and beyond.

 

 

Regardless, this challenge system is stupid.

[Invader3K]

Oh yuck, this sounds like football talk now. I was in favor of the challenge system, but now I may have to rethink my stance on this topic.

[TURBO]

He also said that he didn't go out there because he hates going out onto the field every time there's a close play.

 

 

THIS is all I need to hear...

 

He hates to go on the field when there is a close play? Ridiculous.

 

What a complete and total wimp. The day this clown leaves will be one of the happiest days in my Brewer fandom career.

[danzig6767]

He runs out, talks to the ump. Get's the signal from the dugout whether to challenge or not.

 

It's really very simple.

 

I can't speak for the time he didn't bother to go out on the field.

 

If that's how things are being handled in that Roenicke is getting an answer from the dugout after someone else saw the play and signaled back to the dugout whether to challenge or not, what else is he supposed to do, especially on plays he has no very clear view either way?

 

I just don't understand why both the NFL and MLB don't adopt the college football model for replay? In those games each play is being monitored upstairs and if the replay official sees something questionable, he immediately sends a signal to the head official to stop play. Then usually fairly quickly that replay official sends down to the on field guy whether the play stands or is overturned. All done without coaches/managers running on the field wasting everyone's time and forcing those coaches/managers to decide on something they aren't sure about.

[RobDeer 45]

Danzig - I agree. I think there is too much weird down time with this system. Managers go out every time there is a close play. Look back at the dugout and then go back in. I agree they need replay, but this way is not great. That said, we have to be patient and let them iron out the kinks. Managers too.

 

Segura was out, but i agree that you mind as well just challenge at that point in the game.

[danzig6767]

He also said that he didn't go out there because he hates going out onto the field every time there's a close play.

 

 

THIS is all I need to hear...

 

He hates to go on the field when there is a close play? Ridiculous.

 

What a complete and total wimp. The day this clown leaves will be one of the happiest days in my Brewer fandom career.

 

The day MLB finally bans managers from foolishly being able to waste everyone's time by running on the field to argue or now challenge calls will make me a much happier baseball fan.

 

Smartly, no other sport allows a manager/coach to charge on to the playing surface and often looking like a clown arguing with an official or umpire, while also wasting everyone's time when the arguing never changes the call anyways. If a manager does this, his team should be penalized in some fashion beyond an ejection as happens in all other sports.

 

Baseball regularly talks about speeding up games and an easy start to that is keeping managers in the dugout as much as possible. Ban them from going out to argue calls and if they want to change pitchers, do it from the dugout given they have a direct line to the bullpen. Double switches being an exception. No need to see a manager slowly stroll out to the mound multiple times a games, waste time talking to the pitcher they are going to take out, and then finally signaling to the bullpen who they want to come in.

[jerichoholicninja]

The thing that bothered me was that he did not use wang today with a big lead.I guess 6 run lead in the night was not enough.

 

I was literally yelling at my TV when I saw Henderson out there.

[topper09er]

The worst thing about instant replay is that it sucks all the excitement out of any time a close call goes your way. Players slides home on a bang-bang play umpire gives a big safe signal and the crowd goes wild...not exciting at all because you have to wait and see the replay from 5 angles before you can be sure it won't get challenged.

 

It is also dumb that this has already devolved into a stall tactic until you get some signal from someone watching on TV who calls the bench coach. They are already not counting that time in the "replay time" which they should. I do have to give them credit for figuring this out right away. I think most NFL coaches still don't do this and only challenge based on how favorable it would be for them to have the call overturned, not how likely it is to be overturned. You should have to challenge only based on what you saw from the dugout, if its not obvious to anyone watching the call was wrong then its not worth wasting everyone's time with a challenge. And there should be a big penalty for a challenge that is upheld, like forcing you to remove the pitcher or pinch hit for the next batter if you are wrong, again to prevent wasting my time with calls that are too close to tell.

[topper09er]

Baseball regularly talks about speeding up games and an easy start to that is keeping managers in the dugout as much as possible. Ban them from going out to argue calls and if they want to change pitchers, do it from the dugout given they have a direct line to the bullpen. Double switches being an exception. No need to see a manager slowly stroll out to the mound multiple times a games, waste time talking to the pitcher they are going to take out, and then finally signaling to the bullpen who they want to come in.

 

Managers do not even average going on the field to argue calls once a game, it would make a negligible impact. Managers going to the mound is just like a timeout in every other sport that has a clock, are you proposing to ban timeouts in football? (I would definitely favor it for basketball) At least with managers going to the mound there isn't a commercial break.

 

The #1 way by far to speed up the game is simply to enforce rule 6.02(d)(1) which is already on the books. Sorry to say Braun is a leading offender of this rule adjusting his batting gloves literally after every pitch he sees, notice not swinging at a pitch is not listed:

 

6.02(d)(1) The batter shall keep at least one foot in the batter’s box throughout the batter’s

time at bat, unless one of the following exceptions applies, in which

case the batter may leave the batter’s box but not the dirt area surrounding

home plate:

(i) The batter swings at a pitch;

(ii) The batter is forced out of the batter’s box by a pitch;

(iii) A member of either team requests and is granted “Time”;

(iv) A defensive player attempts a play on a runner at any base;

(v) The batter feints a bunt;

(vi) A wild pitch or passed ball occurs;

(vii) The pitcher leaves the dirt area of the pitching mound after receiving the ball; or

(viii) The catcher leaves the catcher’s box to give defensive signals.

 

If the batter intentionally leaves the batter’s box and delays play, and

none of the exceptions listed in Rule 6.02(d)(1)(i) through (viii) applies,

the umpire shall award a strike without the pitcher having to deliver the

pitch. The ball is dead, and no runners may advance. The umpire shall

award additional strikes, without the pitcher having to deliver the pitch,

if the batter remains outside the batter’s box and further delays play.

[danzig6767]

You should have to challenge only based on what you saw from the dugout, if its not obvious to anyone watching the call was wrong then its not worth wasting everyone's time with a challenge. And there should be a big penalty for a challenge that is upheld, like forcing you to remove the pitcher or pinch hit for the next batter if you are wrong, again to prevent wasting my time with calls that are too close to tell.

Why even have a system putting managers in those type of very close situations where they for good reason are unsure of what exactly happened when the technology is there to instead have a replay system where the managers don't need to be involved at all?

 

Have the replay official buzz the umpire if he sees a likely missed call and then quickly inform that lead umpire if the call should be overturned or not. Problem solved. No managers wasting time running on the field. No managers having to question when the right time for a challenge is. It's out of their hands completely and instead being decided by an official already watching replays immediately as they happen.

[topper09er]

Have the replay official buzz the umpire if he sees a likely missed call and then quickly inform that lead umpire if the call should be overturned or not. Problem solved.

 

Sounds nice but

 

"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is."

-Yogi Berra

 

Have you watched college football lately, this takes forever and they just overly review obviously correct calls, and then a while later the referee insults everyone's intelligence who is watching by telling them the call is confirmed, often with a nice commercial break mixed in.

[danzig6767]

Baseball regularly talks about speeding up games and an easy start to that is keeping managers in the dugout as much as possible. Ban them from going out to argue calls and if they want to change pitchers, do it from the dugout given they have a direct line to the bullpen. Double switches being an exception. No need to see a manager slowly stroll out to the mound multiple times a games, waste time talking to the pitcher they are going to take out, and then finally signaling to the bullpen who they want to come in.

 

Managers do not even average going on the field to argue calls once a game, it would make a negligible impact. Managers going to the mound is just like a timeout in every other sport that has a clock, are you proposing to ban timeouts in football? (I would definitely favor it for basketball) At least with managers going to the mound there isn't a commercial break.

No, i'm fine with baseball managers being able to go to the mound once or twice a game for strategy reasons like say asking a pitcher in a key spot would they rather face the next batter or how exactly to set the defense for a certain hitter in key spots.

 

It's simply just when a manager is going to remove the pitcher for sure, he shouldn't have to stroll to the mound, waste more time after getting there, and then finally making the signal. It's unnecessary.

 

I'll grant the arguing aspect generally hasn't happened consistently in every game over the years, it's just a peeve of mine and has been so for awhile, especially when managers would do so with silly over the top antics. They usually look like idiots to me when doing stuff like screaming right in an umps face, kicking dirt around, throwing their cap on the field, and any number of other nonsense which accomplishes nothing anyways. Umpires should also be sanctioned that pick fights when their job is to avoid them and be noticed as little as possible.

 

As for being stricter on enforcing batters to stay in the box or pitchers from taking forever between pitches like say Marcum did, sign me up buddy. It was painful watching him pitch hen he was struggling.

[danzig6767]

Have the replay official buzz the umpire if he sees a likely missed call and then quickly inform that lead umpire if the call should be overturned or not. Problem solved.

 

Sounds nice but

 

"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is."

-Yogi Berra

 

Have you watched college football lately, this takes forever

I watch tons of college football and sure sometimes it takes too long, but more times than not calls are decided pretty quickly.

 

FWIW, if baseball went to something similar to college football, i'd like a rule instituted that the replay official has a strict two minutes at most to make a decision and if at that point he still is unsure, the call on the field then stands no matter what. You can watch a lot of replay angles in two minutes and if it's still inconclusive, it's time to move on. Replay should mainly be about getting the clearly wrong calls right, not so much the ones where it has to be viewed countless times and with multiple freeze frame still images which take much longer to decide and to often can be strongly questioned if overturning the call on the field.