Closer situation 2014

[dlk9s]

Henderson is probably done. His Brewer closer clock has finally run out. Pretty much right on schedule too.

That's the brilliance of signing K-Rod last year then trading him. They got to reset his Brewers closer clock then got something for him before it ran out and now reset it again.

[endaround]

The problem is not K-Rod closing, its that Henderson is not on the DL with his velocity so far down. He's basically a waste of a roster space currently and with Wang apparently only allowed to pitch in blow outs the Brewers are going to run Kinzler, Smith and Thornburg into the ground. They already have 4 innings each in 6 games played.

[fondybrewfan]

I could of swore I saw Henderson hitting 95 on the gun in one of the Braves games. Its not like the guy is all of a sudden only throwing 88 or something. It is just kind of odd that he got benched before he even had a chance to screw up. Not saying that is a bad thing though. Usually closers have to pitch there way out of the job; especially ones that did so well last year.

[JohnBriggs12]

The problem is not K-Rod closing, its that Henderson is not on the DL with his velocity so far down. He's basically a waste of a roster space currently and with Wang apparently only allowed to pitch in blow outs the Brewers are going to run Kinzler, Smith and Thornburg into the ground. They already have 4 innings each in 6 games played.

 

Count me skeptical that they'll keep Wang around all year if they stay in contention. At some point I think they'll make a deal with Pirates so they'll be able to send him down. That could happen as soon as Gorzelanny is healthy. I thought Henderson's issues were more command than velocity?

[logan82]

Roenicke started off the year by NOT doing the same old things for which he's been raked over the coals repeatedly and some people are now upset? I'm having a hard time wrapping my feeble old melon around this. It seems like blind hatred to me wherein Roenicke is "darned if he does and darned if he doesn't." What's this poor guy got to do to catch a break?

Reading through the posts here the move to K-Rod seems pretty positive. I don't think to many are thrilled with K-Rod but the move and the manager being proactive seems to be well received.

[Outlander]

At this point the Brewers should just send Henderson down until he gets back to where he needs to be and bring up Wooten.

[dlk9s]

I could of swore I saw Henderson hitting 95 on the gun in one of the Braves games. Its not like the guy is all of a sudden only throwing 88 or something. It is just kind of odd that he got benched before he even had a chance to screw up. Not saying that is a bad thing though. Usually closers have to pitch there way out of the job; especially ones that did so well last year.

According to BrooksBaseball.net, Henderson's fastball averaged 94.1 mph on April 1 with a max of 95.3. On April 5, it averaged 92.7 with a max of 93.6.

[DoubleSwitch]

Roenicke started off the year by NOT doing the same old things for which he's been raked over the coals repeatedly and some people are now upset? I'm having a hard time wrapping my feeble old melon around this. It seems like blind hatred to me wherein Roenicke is "darned if he does and darned if he doesn't." What's this poor guy got to do to catch a break?

 

Yeah Roenicke has done a good job playing matchups now that he has all those leftys and I'm a big fan of being proactive and letting KRod close. As far as bullpen management goes I don't think there is any room to criticize RRR so far. The only thing he's done that really annoyed me was having schafer bunt with 2 on no outs against Atlanta. I think he deserves a little credit from the crowd that loves to hate him.

[MadScientist]

Roenicke made the right call for the closer. Something does have to give, though, because he can't manage a team with two untrustworthy arms in the bullpen. Wang has to get into a game and Henderson has to get it going. I still think Wang will do well, but the more he sits, the more nerves he will have once he finally gets in there. I hope he gets in there to start the 7th tomorrow.

[HiAndTight]

I don't understand what all the ballyhoo is about. Most of us for YEARS have said having a set closer is ridiculous. Go with the matchups that give you the best opportunity to win and RRR did that with Smith facing those lefties in the 8th and Rodriguez in the 9th. It matters ZERO who gets the overglorified save. The Brewers won and that is all that matters. This fan belief thaat "RRR" does things to favor veteran grittiness is getting old. Give it a rest people. We don't need a defined closer. Everybody in that pen can pitch whatever inning that finds the best matchups in their favor. Maybe this will lead to a transition away from the stupid Save stat in the first place.

 

 

None of this has changed. They said right after opening day that RRR talked to Henderson and told him he wasn't "the closer." So we still have a defined closer and that's K-Rod. We're almost certainly going to use him the same way we've used our closers in the past. And while the save is definitely a "overglorified stat," I don't think it's ridiculous to have a set closer. We've seen time and time again that pitching the 8th and pitching the 9th are two very different things.

 

We're nowhere near a situation where we matchup our relievers as you're advocating for on here.

[HiAndTight]

The problem is not K-Rod closing, its that Henderson is not on the DL with his velocity so far down. He's basically a waste of a roster space currently and with Wang apparently only allowed to pitch in blow outs the Brewers are going to run Kinzler, Smith and Thornburg into the ground. They already have 4 innings each in 6 games played.

 

 

I'm willing to give them more than 6 games before I declare Henderson a "waste of a roster space," or determine that Wang won't be allowed to pitch unless it's a blowout. I'm sure they'd like to pick and choose their spots with both Henderson and Wang right now. And especially with Wang, try to get his feet wet before throwing him into any close games, though I would imagine they're going to try and limit his high leverage innings as much as possible unless he pitches better than expected throughout the year. Of course having multiple pitchers capable of starting in the BP also helps eat up innings as well. Things will work themselves out. We've played in 6 close games thus far as well. Your top relievers are always going to pitch more in those games.

 

Plus with the days off, I have no problem with how they've used anyone thus far. I'm sure they looked at the Red Sox series as being a bigger series than your normal 3 game series the 1st week of April.

[lcbj68c]

Roenicke started off the year by NOT doing the same old things for which he's been raked over the coals repeatedly and some people are now upset? I'm having a hard time wrapping my feeble old melon around this. It seems like blind hatred to me wherein Roenicke is "darned if he does and darned if he doesn't." What's this poor guy got to do to catch a break?

 

+3

[lcbj68c]

Count me skeptical that they'll keep Wang around all year if they stay in contention. At some point I think they'll make a deal with Pirates so they'll be able to send him down. That could happen as soon as Gorzelanny is healthy. I thought Henderson's issues were more command than velocity?

 

I keep hearing this spread around, but it can't happen. The Brewers cannot just work out a trade with the Pirates to circumvent the process of the Rule 5 Draft.

 

If the Brewers want to move Wang off the 25-man roster, they MUST waive him. He then MUST clear waivers in order to be offered back to the Pirates for 25k. At that point, the Pirates are at the same place with him, that they were at before the Rule 5 draft and can keep him in the minor leagues, with no incentive to trade him to Milwaukee.

 

The Brewers and Pirates CANNOT just simply work out a trade to cancel the Rule 5 provisions. While Wang can be traded to Pitttsburg and then BACK to Milwaukee, the rest of the league would call collusion and IT STILL wouldn't cancel the terms of the Rule 5 draftee needing to be on the 25 man roster. The ONLY way this can happen is if the player is WAIVED and NOT CLAIMED by the other 28 teams AND if Pittsburg fails to take him back for 25K, which ISN'T going to happen.

[jerichoholicninja]

Count me skeptical that they'll keep Wang around all year if they stay in contention. At some point I think they'll make a deal with Pirates so they'll be able to send him down. That could happen as soon as Gorzelanny is healthy. I thought Henderson's issues were more command than velocity?

 

I keep hearing this spread around, but it can't happen. The Brewers cannot just work out a trade with the Pirates to circumvent the process of the Rule 5 Draft.

 

If the Brewers want to move Wang off the 25-man roster, they MUST waive him. He then MUST clear waivers in order to be offered back to the Pirates for 25k. At that point, the Pirates are at the same place with him, that they were at before the Rule 5 draft and can keep him in the minor leagues, with no incentive to trade him to Milwaukee.

 

The Brewers and Pirates CANNOT just simply work out a trade to cancel the Rule 5 provisions. While Wang can be traded to Pitttsburg and then BACK to Milwaukee, the rest of the league would call collusion and IT STILL wouldn't cancel the terms of the Rule 5 draftee needing to be on the 25 man roster. The ONLY way this can happen is if the player is WAIVED and NOT CLAIMED by the other 28 teams AND if Pittsburg fails to take him back for 25K, which ISN'T going to happen.

 

I've been searching to find a source but I am almost 100% certain that is incorrect and a team just needs to work out a trade with the player's former team to put him in the minors.

[dlk9s]

What happens when a player is selected in the Rule 5 Draft?

 

A team that selects a player in the Rule 5 Draft pays $50,000 to the team from which he was selected. The receiving team must then keep the player on the Major League 25-man roster for the entirety of the next season, and the selected player must remain active (not on the disabled list) for a minimum of 90 days. If the player does not remain on the Major League roster, he is offered back to the team from which he was selected for $25,000. If his original team declines, the receiving team may waive the player.

 

Once a player is selected, he is automatically assigned to his new organization's 40-man roster.

 

Can players selected in the Rule 5 Draft be traded?

 

Teams may trade a player selected in the Rule 5 Draft, but the same rules regarding roster placement apply to the player's new team.

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/minorleagues/rule_5.jsp?mc=faq

[TheCrew07]

Once again I say the biggest issue here is that RR is going to continually run the same arms out there day after day and they won't last. The team is going to start making better use of the entire roster because they don't have positional flexibility because of the 2nd and 1st base situations, and they don't have bullpen flexibility because the workload isn't being evened out at all.

 

We really need a starter to go 8 innings the next time through the rotation and get the most used part of the BP a day off.

 

I've never bought into into set role theory, nor do I agree on pitching every guy 1 inning each day... it's not just the pitches they throw in the inning they pitch, it's the cummalitive effect of warming up every day as well. I'd rather roll a guy like Thornburg more than 1 inning if he has it going on, he was a starter and can easily handle it (as I would for any reliever). Let him eat 2 innings every other or 3rd day if possible. I see no reason to pull a reliever who just breezed through his first inning of work, not really even if his spot in the order comes up. If he's hot that day let him go!

[TooLiveBrew]

Once again I say the biggest issue here is that RR is going to continually run the same arms out there day after day and they won't last. The team is going to start making better use of the entire roster because they don't have positional flexibility because of the 2nd and 1st base situations, and they don't have bullpen flexibility because the workload isn't being evened out at all.

 

We really need a starter to go 8 innings the next time through the rotation and get the most used part of the BP a day off.

 

I've never bought into into set role theory, nor do I agree on pitching every guy 1 inning each day... it's not just the pitches they throw in the inning they pitch, it's the cummalitive effect of warming up every day as well. I'd rather roll a guy like Thornburg more than 1 inning if he has it going on, he was a starter and can easily handle it (as I would for any reliever). Let him eat 2 innings every other or 3rd day if possible. I see no reason to pull a reliever who just breezed through his first inning of work, not really even if his spot in the order comes up. If he's hot that day let him go!

1) I really like Roenicke the guy, and am ok with him as manager even with some complaints. One of those is what you talk about -- riding bullpen arms too long.

 

2) I love the idea of guys like Thornburg, Smith, & Wang just being turned loose when they're pitching well.

[trwi7]

It just sucks that Roenicke seemingly isn't going to use Wang in anything other than a blowout either way. That's fine, I guess. They're obviously trying to win games and it's tough to trust a player that hasn't pitched above the GCL. I don't agree with it, actually let him fail before you decide he's strictly a mop up guy only used in blowouts. But if they are going to do that, Duke, a situational lefty has no business being on the team as he's not pitching full innings (or at least shouldn't be) unless there are 3 lefty hitters in a row in which case the opposing manager can just counter with a righty.

 

Get someone like Wooten up here if you're going to use Wang like this as Wooten can pitch multiple innings. It's not like Duke is a must keep. He's a soon to be 31 year old journeyman. As it is we're basically running with a 4 man bullpen until Roenicke deems it a big enough blowout to put Wang in a game and then Duke obviously being a guy you only want to face lefties and until they figure out what's going on with Henderson, which could very well be an injury.

[RobDeer 45]

I think we will start seeing Wang soon (that sounds funny, sorry). I think with the early season schedule having days off, he can afford to hide him a bit. I think part of it is just him getting used to life in the Major Leagues. I think you let him get comfortable with that and then throw him out there. His time will come soon.

[lcbj68c]

 

I've been searching to find a source but I am almost 100% certain that is incorrect and a team just needs to work out a trade with the player's former team to put him in the minors.

 

No, it is correct. You can't circumvent the rules of the Rule 5 draft. The player must be waived and NOT claimed by the other 28 teams BEFORE a trade can be completed. The Mariners and Twins did it with Dickey. Here's your source:

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080329&content_id=2464940&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb&fext=.jsp

 

The Brewers CANNOT simply just work out a trade with Pittsburg that involves Wang and send Wang to AA, it doesn't work that way. These posts that have been implying such are not true. Wang must be released, clear Waivers, be pased on by 28 other teams, AND Pittsburg not want to spend 25k to put him back in their own AA ball system. It just simply isnt going to happen.

[FVBrewerFan]

I've never bought into into set role theory, nor do I agree on pitching every guy 1 inning each day... it's not just the pitches they throw in the inning they pitch, it's the cummalitive effect of warming up every day as well. I'd rather roll a guy like Thornburg more than 1 inning if he has it going on, he was a starter and can easily handle it (as I would for any reliever). Let him eat 2 innings every other or 3rd day if possible. I see no reason to pull a reliever who just breezed through his first inning of work, not really even if his spot in the order comes up. If he's hot that day let him go!

 

I mostly agree. I have no problem with establishing roles, but they don't need to be rigid roles. I've already seen several examples of RR basically forcing himself to use several relievers just so they can fit into their roles. Just today against Philly they have a comfortable lead and he blows through 4 relievers. That's just stupid. I get Henderson, he needed an inning. But there's no way he needed Duke, Smith and Kintzler to all pitch in a 10-4 game.

 

I look at it this way too. Every reliever is going to have a bad outing from time to time. If you keep trotting out 4+ relievers every game you are increasing the odds that one of them will be off and blow the game for you.

[TURBO]

RRR does not know how to use a bullpen, it has been established for years. He is not very good at simple everyday managing of a baseball team, yet he continues to have a job. I am starting to believe the only way he leaves is if Melvin leaves.

[danzig6767]

I've never bought into into set role theory, nor do I agree on pitching every guy 1 inning each day... it's not just the pitches they throw in the inning they pitch, it's the cummalitive effect of warming up every day as well. I'd rather roll a guy like Thornburg more than 1 inning if he has it going on, he was a starter and can easily handle it (as I would for any reliever). Let him eat 2 innings every other or 3rd day if possible. I see no reason to pull a reliever who just breezed through his first inning of work, not really even if his spot in the order comes up. If he's hot that day let him go!

 

I mostly agree. I have no problem with establishing roles, but they don't need to be rigid roles. I've already seen several examples of RR basically forcing himself to use several relievers just so they can fit into their roles. Just today against Philly they have a comfortable lead and he blows through 4 relievers. That's just stupid. I get Henderson, he needed an inning. But there's no way he needed Duke, Smith and Kintzler to all pitch in a 10-4 game.

 

I look at it this way too. Every reliever is going to have a bad outing from time to time. If you keep trotting out 4+ relievers every game you are increasing the odds that one of them will be off and blow the game for you.

Keep in mind that it was only a 7-4 game until Braun hit a 3-run homer in the top of the 8th inning and Kintzler was already warmed up to pitch the bottom of the 8th, so he may as well be used and as much as i wanted to see Wang in the 9th, i understand using Henderson.

 

If Henderson is back to being effective as he looked last night, this bullpen has a chance to be really good. That said, clearly Wang has to fairly soon start being used both to save bullpen innings and it's simply a wasted roster spot having him sit there doing nothing. Waiting for just blowouts earlier in games to use him accomplishes little since blowouts like that don't happen often.

 

Plus, if Thornburg can keep being effective, i really think this could end up being one of the better overall Brewers bullpens in awhile and with the rotation, it's hard not to really like the potential of the whole pitching staff.

[logan82]

I don't think K-Rod is our best reliever but that kind of works best in my opinion. Ideally I think a bullpen works best if you have your third best reliever as the closer. That way you have 2 guys who you can call on to end a rally. In a perfect world that would be guys that can go a couple innings. That takes the strain off of guys having to pitch every day. Closing is not always the highest leverage situation your pitchers will face in a game. Bringing a reliever in to replace your starter in the 6th-8th with runners on can easily be a higher leverage situation.