What do you think of our Wang? Slot Worthy?

[FVBrewerFan]

It seems odd to me that people are so worked up over how little time our last reliever has received. It isnt unprecedented to have your 13 pitcher not pitch many innings. Just a quick look. I am guessing Wang is getting coaching right now. Would I like to see him pitch an inning or something - sure - but Henderson seemed to be getting the low-leverage innings so he could figure things out. Now that he looks better lets see if Wang can get an inning

 

The Card's last reliever has 1 IP.

The Red's last reliever has 0.2 IP.

Will Smith is on pace to pitch 95 games. K-Rod and Henderson 88. Thornburg's on pace for 103 innings.

 

These guys are pitching fine now, but this kind of things catches up over 162 games.

 

Part of the reason our good relievers are pitching is that we are winning and games are close. It's understandable you want your best guys out there. But the team is going to have to work in Wang simply to keep the other guys from getting overworked. I think the Braves a couple of years ago were criticized when they overworked their big three relievers. They were brilliant all year, but faltered in September as they all got tired.

 

I understand what you are saying but we both know K-Rod, Thornburg and Henderson's games will go down once we start losing a few more games and when our starters struggle early. We are 10-2 and almost every one of our games has been close so K-Rod and Thornburg are getting a lot of use. Henderson got a lot of use because he needed work through his issues. Even with that K-Rod, Thornburg, and Henderson are 17th, 41st and 41st in games pitched by right handed relief pitchers. Thornburg is tied for 10th in IP which isnt out of line and he has been stretched out as a starter before so I am not nearly as worried.

 

Smith's numbers might need to a come down but the sample size is so small and our start has been so improbable he has had a lot of opportunities in close games. 35 lefties pitched in 60-76 games last year. This year 11 lefties have pitched in as many or more games than Smith and another 17 have one less game. So if Lohse doesnt all that hit last night Smith would have pitched in the same amount or less games 28 lefties. He hasnt been pitching that much more than other relievers

 

Another thing with the stats is relief pitchers usually pitch more in the start of the season because starters are not fully stretched out and/or coaches dont let them go as deep into games. As the season goes along and the weather warms up starters will pitch more and relievers numbers will go down.

 

The numbers do not back up the perception that our bullpen is overworked. Comparatively our pitchers are not pitching more innings that others even though we have consistently been in close games.

 

 

Good discussion. I would also add Kintzler wasn't being used, and now we know why. So for the last week, they were basically going with 5 arms in the bullpen. Now that Wooten is in the pen, he can take some innings. Gorzelanny will also be back, and can replace Duke or have someone go down with a phantom tired arm type injury for a couple weeks. Lots of ways to manage innings, and I think the Brewers are pretty sensitive to that.

[MadScientist]

Wang had his debut, so the butterflies won't be so bad next time. He knows he can get MLB batters out, so now they don't have to baby him quite so much. Let him pitch when they are with in +/- 3 runs for the next month, that should provide a opportunity for a fair number of innings.

[reillymcshane]

We really shook the pillars of heaven, didn't we, Wang?

 

Thank you.

You're welcome.

 

It's one of my favorite all time movies. My 14 year old son and I will sit and shoot quotes back and forth to each other (while my wife shakes her head and says we are weird - which we are).

[HiAndTight]

He reminds me of a little of Axford with that flat fastball. His changeup looks awesome--if he can locate that he should be fine.

 

I suspect RR was just carefully choosing his debut and we will see more Wang in the near future.

 

It seems like our entire staff has more guys throwing really effective changeup's than in the past. That and/or really improving their change as Thornburg has done this year(I liked him coming into the year, but if his change can continue to be a plus pitch, he could be a legitimate #2/3 starter).

 

Wang looked good though. I would assume his ability to start or be more than a loogy would hinge on his ability to develop a 3rd pitch as his fastball doesn't move enough to get by just on that and his change, but with some of the craptastic guys we've had as our 7th BP arm, he should be alright all year if we use a strategically placed DL stint(or two) in there.

[DoubleSwitch]

It seems like our entire staff has more guys throwing really effective changeup's than in the past.

 

This is a trend across baseball I think. Very effective pitch and easy on the arm.

 

Also Wang needs to spend an entire seasons worth of time on the Brewers active roster to become full Brewers property. Any time he spends on the DL will just be tacked onto the number of days he needs to spend in Milwaukee.

 

Also TC07, that Wang article is behind a paywall for me. I'd love to read it if you could do a copy paste job.

[SoupTown]

To become full Brewers property. Any time he spends on the DL will just be tacked onto the number of days he needs to spend in Milwaukee.

 

 

 

That is not true

[DoubleSwitch]

Oops, I guess you only need to be active 90 days.

[JohnBriggs12]

Wang has no business in the big leagues taking a spot from a guy who's earned it. Cute idea in theory, but in practice it's a dumb one. I'd put Wang's chances of pitching in the big leagues after 2014 at less than 50-50. He's going to get mentally beat up by the big boys (see Matt Ford). There's a reason they have minor leagues. It's called player development. Wang needs development. Offer him back to Pittsburgh, and find your own young pitching the old fashioned way through scouting and development of your own guys. Geesh.

[jerichoholicninja]

Wang has no business in the big leagues taking a spot from a guy who's earned it. Cute idea in theory, but in practice it's a dumb one. I'd put Wang's chances of pitching in the big leagues after 2014 at less than 50-50. He's going to get mentally beat up by the big boys (see Matt Ford). There's a reason they have minor leagues. It's called player development. Wang needs development. Offer him back to Pittsburgh, and find your own young pitching the old fashioned way through scouting and development of your own guys. Geesh.

 

Let's see what he's looked like after throwing more than 2 innings.

[dacbrewers]

I'm not going to say I called it with numerous previous posts....but I'm leaning towards it. Wang has only had a couple of outings...lets give it a couple months and see where he's at before I go off again. It's defeating to have a possible prospect go in for mop up roles only and get rocked. The brewers put themselves in this situation by taking him in the Rule 5. He will be with the team the whole year now. My question is, after year one when Wang gets put back into the brewers minor system, will he still remain on the 25 man roster? or 40 man? or not at all?

[PrinceFielderx1]

I thought everybody was willing to just give him back after last nights game. What happened?

[trwi7]

Wang has no business in the big leagues taking a spot from a guy who's earned it.

 

The guy whose spot he took is likely Wooten. Remind me how he pitched last night.

[torts]

Wang has no business in the big leagues taking a spot from a guy who's earned it.

 

The guy whose spot he took is likely Wooten. Remind me how he pitched last night.

 

[sarcasm]like an ace[/sarcasm]

[SRB]

Wang has no business in the big leagues taking a spot from a guy who's earned it. Cute idea in theory, but in practice it's a dumb one. I'd put Wang's chances of pitching in the big leagues after 2014 at less than 50-50. He's going to get mentally beat up by the big boys (see Matt Ford). There's a reason they have minor leagues. It's called player development. Wang needs development. Offer him back to Pittsburgh, and find your own young pitching the old fashioned way through scouting and development of your own guys. Geesh.

 

Yeah, Melvin really is not taking advantage of that pitching-prospect tree he planted behind Miller Park. What's the deal?

 

Or maybe he could try acquiring an interesting young arm with upside (for free) by hiding him in the boring-but-necessary mop-up role on the team, rather than giving that spot to a random, mediocre veteran who has "earned it"...

[TheCrew07]

Wang has no business in the big leagues taking a spot from a guy who's earned it. Cute idea in theory, but in practice it's a dumb one. I'd put Wang's chances of pitching in the big leagues after 2014 at less than 50-50. He's going to get mentally beat up by the big boys (see Matt Ford). There's a reason they have minor leagues. It's called player development. Wang needs development. Offer him back to Pittsburgh, and find your own young pitching the old fashioned way through scouting and development of your own guys. Geesh.

 

He gets rocked once and we're going to give up on him?

 

Let's get real, the only way he continues to progress as a player is to pitch, he's not going to get better sitting on the bench learning through osmosis. It would be nice if he could just be hidden but the simple fact is that he can't. The bright spot about this situation is that Lee Tunnell is in the bullpen and can work him and actually coach him. If the Brewers are serious about keeping him then they have to use him, but I wouldn't be calling for his head after 1 bad outing.

 

I didn't watch him pitch, I had the game up on gameday, I was working on other things, in fact I haven't watched him pitch one time. My opinions are based solely on what's best for Wang's continued progression as a pitcher, he needs to throw on a regular basis if he's going to have any value down the road.

 

The problem with baseball is that there is no patience in the sport... the rule is basically that prospects need to instantly succeed or they aren't ready because they've already been developed in the minor leagues, but that's not just realistic. For 1 there hasn't been all that much development in the minor leagues, it's been largely a trial by fire, learn to succeed on your own or get out environment. Lohse even touched on that in that article about Duncan actually teaching him how to pitch, it doesn't seem like coaches at MLB are all that interested in actually teaching anything, nor are the players all that interested in being taught. Regardless when evaluating a starting pitcher you aren't able to tell anything about a guy after just 6 starts, good or bad, and certainly aren't able to tell anything about a reliever after just 2 outings, 1 bad. The player needs positive reinforcement, a long leash to learn from failure, and about a full year to adequately see where a player is going to fall.

 

Most players don't get that because there's very little practice time during the season and the rosters are only 25 men. Every player is going to develop as his own rate and sometimes failure is actually the best teacher. What good does it a guy to dominate AAA but continually get sent back down there because he's not instantly successful at MLB? How does he make the necessary adjustments if he's only getting sporadic playing time at best when he's used to playing every single day? He's not only being asked to adjust to a new role, but making the ultimate jump in talent as at the same time, it's a poor theory and a system that's never really worked, but it's what has always been done.

 

Giving a pitcher 2 starts here, 3 starts there, 5 starts the following year like the Brewers did with Parra is a recipe for failure, and no I'm not suggesting Parra would have been better, but the team would have known for certain what he was much sooner, there would have been no reason to hold out hope. The same for Gamel, or any top prospect, if he's up in the majors, let him play every day and progress. The Macha theory with Escobar was horrible, every time he went 0-8 he was looking over his shoulder waiting to be benched, the last thing you want any player thinking about is failing. It has nothing to do with being a player's manager or disciplinarian, it's just the same ole way things have always been done.

 

The more I think about the Cardinals, the more I think that "coaching" has been their edge, they have people up and down the organization who really buy into teaching players how to play the game. They don't hand players anything but at the same time they also make sure they have every resource they need, even at the big league level. Milwaukee has never really had that outside of Yost's staff, it's always been about "production", about this year, not about maximizing a player's production over the course of his career, that's been dumped entirely on the player. I really wanted a guy like Davey Johnson when RR was hired, and I don't mean to suggest that RR is a bad guy or a poor baseball man. I'm just saying the Brewers have to actually buy into developing players, even at the big league level, if they are going to be successful.

 

What I'm talking about is that there will be 4-5 stories per year about a pitcher in the Brewer organization who just started watching film or is watching film by himself, what the hell is that? Sometimes it's a MLB guy, sometimes in a minor leaguer but regardless why isn't the pitching coach watching with and pointing out various issues? They take film of every start at every level, and I realize I come from a football background where film is a critical teaching tool, but it should be the same for baseball as well. Why wouldn't you watch your ABs to see what pitchers are trying to do to you? Or if you are pitcher look to see why you can hit a certain spot sometimes, but not others, what's changing with your delivery? I've spent 100s of hours with QBs even at the high school level looking at and breaking down their throwing mechanics with them, from throwing drills, to practice, to games and I would expect pitching coaches to be doing the same, but that's not been the case. Football is all about timing and mechanics, but so is baseball and unfortunately too many pitchers give back much of their advantage with unnecessary garbage in their deliveries... Those tenths of second always matter, especially with runners on base.

 

If the Brewers are committed to keeping Wang on the 25 man roster I hope they are also equally committed to progressing him as a pitcher and are doing all of the little things including putting in extra time with him. If not then regardless of his upside they might as well ship him back to the Pirates because he'll come of out the season with his confidence shot and not amount to much anyway. He has decent upside and he's a lefty, something the Brewers are sorely lacking, but again if this blow up means he's relegated to sacrificial lamb duty, then it's best to move on.

[lcbj68c]

I'm not going to say I called it with numerous previous posts....but I'm leaning towards it. Wang has only had a couple of outings...lets give it a couple months and see where he's at before I go off again. It's defeating to have a possible prospect go in for mop up roles only and get rocked. The brewers put themselves in this situation by taking him in the Rule 5. He will be with the team the whole year now. My question is, after year one when Wang gets put back into the brewers minor system, will he still remain on the 25 man roster? or 40 man? or not at all?

 

Wang could have a 10.00 era and pitch 50 innings and it wouldn't matter as to decision to select him in the Rule 5 draft. He wasn't selected to shine in 2014 at the big league level. He was selected because his upside is better than what they have currently at the same age in the minor league levels. Whether he ever spends a day on the 40man or 25man or gets back to the big leagues after 2014 still isn't a reason to not select him in the Rule 5 draft. Somebody "who's earned it" (the 25th man) isn't going to help the Brewers MORE in 2014 than Wang. Quite frankly, there isn't anybody in AAA that's earned it, in my opinion beyond the word longevity. The gamble of giving away the 25th spot on the active roster to a left hander with tremendous upside, isn't that great of a gamble in my opinion. Unfortunately, since you decided to reshow in this thread after a bad outing looking to call it his career, I think it's going to take 4-5 years before one can truly determine the merit of his selection.

[SoupTown]

As another poster noted, this is quite a power packed observation: "find your own young pitching the old fashioned way through scouting and development of your own guys." Where is the blue font?

 

The Brewers say that Wang is the equivalent of mid, round 1, draft pick.

 

I agree with the posters who say the guy can indeed pitch 25 games, 2 innings a game, in those lopsided games - and get 50 innings - and not hurt 2014, but maybe help 2017 or so.

[JohnBriggs12]

Wang has no business in the big leagues taking a spot from a guy who's earned it.

 

The guy whose spot he took is likely Wooten. Remind me how he pitched last night.

 

 

Right now you could argue he's taking Fiers' spot. As for Wooten, Wooten's toiled for years to get to the major leagues. He's a fringe pitcher but he knows how to pitch and is mature enough to handle a rough outing. If the Brewers consider themselves serious contenders, they can't afford to carry a pitcher they are afraid to use.

 

I understand all the arguments about "developing a talent" etc. But is this season all about developing one guy who may or may not have a major league future, or is it about winning? Ten or so years ago it made some sense for them to try and develop a Matt Ford. The major league team wasn't going anywhere. This year's team has higher aspirations.

[brewcrewdue80]

Wang has no business in the big leagues taking a spot from a guy who's earned it.

 

The guy whose spot he took is likely Wooten. Remind me how he pitched last night.

 

 

Right now you could argue he's taking Fiers' spot. As for Wooten, Wooten's toiled for years to get to the major leagues. He's a fringe pitcher but he knows how to pitch and is mature enough to handle a rough outing. If the Brewers consider themselves serious contenders, they can't afford to carry a pitcher they are afraid to use.

 

I understand all the arguments about "developing a talent" etc. But is this season all about developing one guy who may or may not have a major league future, or is it about winning? Ten or so years ago it made some sense for them to try and develop a Matt Ford. The major league team wasn't going anywhere. This year's team has higher aspirations.

 

 

It's simple how to get through the season with Wang. When we have an emergency start or a doubleheader this year, give him the Start, hand him a bat, bunt the ball, hustle down the line and grab his Hammy as he reaches 1b. DL Stint and 25th man problem solved!

 

But really, as I stated earlier, he's the 25th man RP who can be managed his time/innings throughout the season. There's going to be games where we face Kershaw/Wainwright/the Aces of the NL who do what they're supposed to do and shutout the Brewers Bats. And in those games 3 or more runs behind come 7th inning Wang can get an Inning or 3 depending how he does, where he falls in the batting order. He's the last man off the bench among RPs it's not going to come down in the end to relying on him being successful to win the division or WS for that matter. That's up to our Starters going 6innings or more and if they aren't then the team is likely behind in the game. If the Starters go 6IP, there are more than enough RPs to get in the final 9outs to not need to use Wang.

This isn't going to be a problem for the Brewers chances in 2014.

Just remember where Wang slots in the Brewers prospect lines for pitching: Nelson, Williams, Hellweg, Jungmann and then its Wang. I personally think of the growth he may get by being along side the Vets, Lohse,Gallardo,Garza who could be a mentor to Wang if they take interest in his pitching sessions. This will work out there's no need to nix it because the 25th man on bench can't cut it to better than MLB average level.

[BrewCrewForever]

I think the Brewers will keep him on the roster until it becomes a problem and they HAVE to have a 25th man who can contribute more. Until then he will probably get time in games we are up a lot our down more than 3 or 4.

[HiAndTight]

I'm not going to say I called it with numerous previous posts....but I'm leaning towards it. Wang has only had a couple of outings...lets give it a couple months and see where he's at before I go off again. It's defeating to have a possible prospect go in for mop up roles only and get rocked. The brewers put themselves in this situation by taking him in the Rule 5. He will be with the team the whole year now. My question is, after year one when Wang gets put back into the brewers minor system, will he still remain on the 25 man roster? or 40 man? or not at all?

 

 

I would really hope you wouldn't try and say you've called anything as you've spouted off a lot of nonsense regarding Wang, even suggesting at one point that they'd open the season with him as their closer.

 

Second, it's not "defeating," to have a rule 5 prospect get rocked unless you're a defeatist(which if you're anything based upon your posts, it's just that).

 

Third, you're honestly asking if we make it through the year with him on our 25 man roster, if we hide him and are able to weather the storm, are we going to put him on our 40 man roster next year? No, we're going to deal with all the complications that come with keeping a guy with talent, but who otherwise would be pitching in A ball this year through the season only to essentially give him up next year in the rule 5 again. No, I would assume we'd protect him. But this is a question that is coming about 6 months early.

 

I'd also suggest that we wait a bit before making assumptions that we'll be lucky enough to be able to carry him all year long, but I fear that would fall on def ears as you've made numerous wild assumptions every step of the way with Wang and have no expectation of that stopping at this point.

[HiAndTight]

Wang has no business in the big leagues taking a spot from a guy who's earned it. Cute idea in theory, but in practice it's a dumb one. I'd put Wang's chances of pitching in the big leagues after 2014 at less than 50-50. He's going to get mentally beat up by the big boys (see Matt Ford). There's a reason they have minor leagues. It's called player development. Wang needs development. Offer him back to Pittsburgh, and find your own young pitching the old fashioned way through scouting and development of your own guys. Geesh.

 

 

Cute idea in practice? Kinda like Dan Uggla and Johan Santana were "cute ideas?" And before you try and argue that he's not Johan Santana, he's got as much in common with Santana at this point as he does with Matt Ford.

 

I don't care what Matt Ford did in the slightest as it concerns Wang, and the logic that because he's potentially going to get hit around in the big leagues means he's going to never make it is just utter nonsense and ignores the dozens and dozens of pitches who've thrived after getting knocked all over the park in the big leagues.

 

Wang has made no secret of the fact that he's facing an uphill battle and that he wasn't MLB ready.

 

As for your "find your own young pitching the old fashioned way through scouting and development," please explain to me when that stopped including scouting other teams young pitching? Seems to me this is just one of a number of ways to acquire young arms and it'd be foolish to give up on it after TWO-INNINGS.

 

 

Two weeks ago I thought Wang was a guy who had the potential to develop into a really nice pitcher. That he had a plus change, good velocity and that he needed development with his third pitch and experience.

 

Please explain to me what has changed after 6 outs?

 

This type of logic is what leads a team to make hasty moves like trading Grant Balfour for Seth McClung.

[dacbrewers]

I'm not going to say I called it with numerous previous posts....but I'm leaning towards it. Wang has only had a couple of outings...lets give it a couple months and see where he's at before I go off again. It's defeating to have a possible prospect go in for mop up roles only and get rocked. The brewers put themselves in this situation by taking him in the Rule 5. He will be with the team the whole year now. My question is, after year one when Wang gets put back into the brewers minor system, will he still remain on the 25 man roster? or 40 man? or not at all?

 

Wang could have a 10.00 era and pitch 50 innings and it wouldn't matter as to decision to select him in the Rule 5 draft. He wasn't selected to shine in 2014 at the big league level. He was selected because his upside is better than what they have currently at the same age in the minor league levels. Whether he ever spends a day on the 40man or 25man or gets back to the big leagues after 2014 still isn't a reason to not select him in the Rule 5 draft. Somebody "who's earned it" (the 25th man) isn't going to help the Brewers MORE in 2014 than Wang. Quite frankly, there isn't anybody in AAA that's earned it, in my opinion beyond the word longevity. The gamble of giving away the 25th spot on the active roster to a left hander with tremendous upside, isn't that great of a gamble in my opinion. Unfortunately, since you decided to reshow in this thread after a bad outing looking to call it his career, I think it's going to take 4-5 years before one can truly determine the merit of his selection.

 

At the Major League level it's about winning games not developing pitching. Bottom line...It's a wasted position spot that could go to someone who could actually help us get wins. Your way off in your thinking that someone else couldn't help the Brewers more than Wang. Granted he is going to get his 20-30 innings this year and next year we will see how he does in A ball. I have heard way too many people quote tremendous upside for a player only to have the player gone in 2-3 years.

[djoctagone]

My question is, after year one when Wang gets put back into the brewers minor system, will he still remain on the 25 man roster? or 40 man? or not at all?

if he's put back into the brewers' minor league system in 2015, he's obviously not on the 25-man roster.

 

if they want to keep him on the 40-man roster in 2015, but in the minor leagues, they'd have to option him (burning his first option).

 

if they want to keep him in the organization at the conclusion of the 2014 season, but remove him from the 40-man roster, wang could be claimed by any other team with a 40-man spot open, and would enter 2015 spring training with three minor league options remaining. if no other team claims him, he remains brewers' property, but could be subject to the rule 5 draft again. one would think that if a team truly wanted wang in 2015, they'd claim him as a waiver claim (can be optioned) and not a rule 5 pick (cannot be optioned).

[brwrsfan]

MLB network is saying that the suspensions/fines won't come out until tomorrow, as the umpires are traveling and can't get their reports to MLB executives until tonight.