What do you think of our Wang? Slot Worthy?

[SRB]

Didn't Chipper Jones fake an injury a few years back because he was upset about something and refusing to play?

 

I think the MLB inquiry into whether an injury is real is pretty minimal. I'm sure basically any pitcher has some lingering issue that can be used as the justification.

[SoupTown]

Ok. The dangerous dancing on Wang Wednesday did not work

 

Throwing his fastball in the 80s did not work

 

Are we down to teaching the young man the great past time of 'pickup, school yard basketball'

[Thurston Fluff]

In your own argument, you're saying that the player that's being sent to the DL would have to "intervene on the players behalf." Why on Earth would Wang want them to do this? Because he'd rather be pitching for a few grand a year as opposed to earning service time on a major league roster making half a million dollars a year?

 

You also have to have a doctor who would go along with that. Frankly I'd be surprised if there are a lot of doctors, who have careers of their own to think about, would be all that interested in such unethical behavior.

But to answer your question Wang is probably smart enough to realize his career is more than one year long. I'm sure he knows he would be better served developing in the minors so he is ready sooner than later to stay in the majors. While this is not ideal it is still better for him to be on the active roster playing occasionally and getting side work in on a regular basis than sitting on the DL doing nothing.

[JohnBriggs12]

Wang's already well behind most prospects his age in development time. If he makes it through this season with the Brewers, it's likely he'll start next year no higher than Brevard as a 23 year old. It might even be he's in Appleton next year. That's part of the reason I'm not on board with this. It's a lot of shenanigans for one prospect for whom success if it comes at all is so far off. He may well be 26 or 27 before he's ready to pitch in the major leagues.

[Thurston Fluff]

Which would make him about the same age as Fiers is now. Is there a reason why a guy who comes in at that age is not a viable option to be productive when he gets here?

[lcbj68c]

Wang's already well behind most prospects his age in development time. If he makes it through this season with the Brewers, it's likely he'll start next year no higher than Brevard as a 23 year old. It might even be he's in Appleton next year. That's part of the reason I'm not on board with this. It's a lot of shenanigans for one prospect for whom success if it comes at all is so far off. He may well be 26 or 27 before he's ready to pitch in the major leagues.

 

If a 22yr old finishes college and is drafted, his development is the same as Wang. 23yrd old at Brevard then Huntsville likely. Remember, it's not like Wang picked up a ball for the first time just last year. He's been developing like a college pitcher has, just over in Taiwan. He's not being put behind any curve by his situation this year. In fact, he threw another side session to Aramis Ramirez the other day. He is getting work and developing, just not in MLB games.

[TheCrew07]

Wang's already well behind most prospects his age in development time. If he makes it through this season with the Brewers, it's likely he'll start next year no higher than Brevard as a 23 year old. It might even be he's in Appleton next year. That's part of the reason I'm not on board with this. It's a lot of shenanigans for one prospect for whom success if it comes at all is so far off. He may well be 26 or 27 before he's ready to pitch in the major leagues.

 

As opposed to Fiers, Henderson, and Axford who were all that age or older when they made their debut or college players like Jungmann, Suter, or Bradley who would be that old by the time they may earn a rotation spot? What about a guy like Burgos who got a taste at 25 and is now back in the minors? Or Kintzler who also got a taste at 25 but didn't solidify a spot until he was 28?

 

There is no way Wang would pitch next year in WI, he would start in BC. I find no consistency in the way you evaluate players... for the guys you like who are getting results regardless of their ceiling it's the best case scenario and for anyone with legitimate talent but isn't blowing the doors off anything performance it's typically the absolute worst case scenario. Where's the middle ground? Why does it always have to be taken to the extremes? You've consistently over exaggerated how bad or "not ready" he really is.

 

It would be different if this discussion was grounded on the knowledge acquired from having actually watched minor league pitchers over the years so you could make an educated guess on his actual arrival date instead of the arbitrary worst case scenario. The constant "if he even makes it" isn't any kind of justification either, you could say that for any prospect at time, they are all 1 serious shoulder injury away from being done.

 

He's already made it, he's already on a MLB roster, and while that may be some injustice based on a technicality from your point of view, he's still accruing more MLB service time than the majority of prospects currently in the Brewer system will ever see.

 

He's got talent, he's got Lee Tunnell whom I hope he's working with on side sessions, and if he makes progress with his command he'll likely split A+ & AA as as 23 year old in which case he would be exactly the average age of your typical AA player. He could split AA & AAA as a 24 year old and be ready if needed by age 25, or he could spend a full level each year and be ready at age 26. At 6' 1" and 180 LBs he actually could have a bit of velocity projection left as well.

 

The positives here vastly outweigh the contrived negatives, until Wang actually costs the Brewers a win there truly isn't anything to actually complain about. Yes Wang may not make it back to MLB like previous Brewer Rule 5 selections, but you could say the same for a bunch of recent Brewer 1st and 2nd round draft picks and with his stuff I feel like we picked up a 2nd round draft pick for a measly $50k which is incredible value. Unfortunately to keep him we have to waste a year of his service time, but if he performs at all the year can easily be bought back in with a pre-arby contract.

[patrickgpe]

he has entered a tied game at Wrigley and a 1 run game and completed blew the game wide open, I am counting him costing atleast 1 game.

 

They have bigger issues than Wang, but the team basically is trying to stay in first with one less guy than everyone else.

[HiAndTight]

In your own argument, you're saying that the player that's being sent to the DL would have to "intervene on the players behalf." Why on Earth would Wang want them to do this? Because he'd rather be pitching for a few grand a year as opposed to earning service time on a major league roster making half a million dollars a year?

 

You also have to have a doctor who would go along with that. Frankly I'd be surprised if there are a lot of doctors, who have careers of their own to think about, would be all that interested in such unethical behavior.

But to answer your question Wang is probably smart enough to realize his career is more than one year long. I'm sure he knows he would be better served developing in the minors so he is ready sooner than later to stay in the majors. While this is not ideal it is still better for him to be on the active roster playing occasionally and getting side work in on a regular basis than sitting on the DL doing nothing.

 

First of all, I think your definition of "such unethical behavior," and mine differ greatly. I don't think if the team and or player goes to the team doctor and says, "my arm doesn't feel right," he's going to argue with them and say, "well, everything looks alright and I won't commit fraud by signing a form to place him on the DL." I had a fairly long athletic career with a LOT of injuries. My team doctor in college would tell you to take two weeks off if you told him your knee was sore. I'm sure others have had similar experiences. Doctors are NEVER going to make a decision that exposes them and the player to more liability. Lets say they want to put Wang on the DL and he goes out and pitches a week later and now he has structural damage? This is why it's absolutely not "unethical," behavior to sign off on a 15 day DL stint for a pitcher.

Doctors also work for the team. I REALLY find it hard to believe they would go against the trainers, coaches, GM and not sign off on a request for something as straight forward as a dead arm.

 

Second, do you REALLY believe that Wang would rather be making 1200 bucks a month, or do you believe he'd rather be making half a million dollars for the year? I'm not trying to be insulting, so I'm trying to word this carefully, but I think it's a little naive to think that Wang would prefer to be sent back to the Pirates so he can pitch everyday rather than be around a big league club pitching even sporadically and making more money this year than he'd make if he pitched in the minor leagues for the next decade.

 

Third, you do realize that if Wang goes on the DL he can still throw side sessions? You do realize he's probably getting better coaching. That when he comes off the DL he can pitch in the minors for a full month?

 

So yes, I think Wang is probably smart enough think about his future. To know that while his development MIGHT be stunted, or slowed, he will have a full year of service time accrued by the end of this year and he will have earned about 480K more than he otherwise would have.

 

 

And then of course, again, there is the fact that nobody can name a single time that major league baseball has ever denied a request to put a player on the DL.

 

 

Didn't Chipper Jones fake an injury a few years back because he was upset about something and refusing to play?

 

I think the MLB inquiry into whether an injury is real is pretty minimal. I'm sure basically any pitcher has some lingering issue that can be used as the justification.

 

I don't recall the Chipper Jones thing, but I think for the most part these types of moves wouldn't make news. I'm sure guys went on the DL yesterday. You just don't hear about it unless they're big name players(like Chipper). Conversely, if the office of the Commissioner stepped in and denied a team a DL request, THAT would likely be big news and I'm sure you'd about that as it's never happened(as far as I know).

 

But you're right, not only does every pitcher probably have some lingering issue, the shoulder is so insanely complex that you can go to several different doctors and get several different diagnoses. Some will say rest, some will say it's fine, some will say you need surgery. I've had 5 surgeries now on my shoulder. I had cadaver ligaments put into it, screws and other things. The shoulder is so complex, I can't imagine any Doctor saying, "no, I don't believe you're hurt, your shoulder looks fine." Things can be wrong without even so much as any inflammation.

[Thurston Fluff]

Second, do you REALLY believe that Wang would rather be making 1200 bucks a month, or do you believe he'd rather be making half a million dollars for the year? I'm not trying to be insulting, so I'm trying to word this carefully, but I think it's a little naive to think that Wang would prefer to be sent back to the Pirates so he can pitch everyday rather than be around a big league club pitching even sporadically and making more money this year than he'd make if he pitched in the minor leagues for the next decade.

 

If making that much now means you lose more later maybe it isn't so cut and dried.

Third, you do realize that if Wang goes on the DL he can still throw side sessions? You do realize he's probably getting better coaching. That when he comes off the DL he can pitch in the minors for a full month?

 

If you go back and read the protocol for being on the DL they also have to update the progress as they go. The idea that we can hide him for more than a month for a dead arm diagnosis, all the while giving him the same workload as he is getting now, stretches credibility.

And then of course, again, there is the fact that nobody can name a single time that major league baseball has ever denied a request to put a player on the DL.

 

How often does anything in any sport that is both against the rules and, as you claim, widespread never have a single incident of someone getting caught? Let alone nobody ever being so much as accused of it. You seem to be saying that is because it is sort of accepted practice. I just don't see that as realistic. People who are going to stretch the rules tend to eventually stretch them to the breaking point. Hell on this board alone someone suggests a player get a phantom injury almost every single year. If teams routinely do that just to hide players who would normally be exposed to other teams we should defiantly see a significantly higher number of non traceable injuries for players who are out of options. We should also at least hear of cases where other teams accuse other teams of doing it. As far as I can tell that is not the case. The fact that not even Mr. Conspiracy theorist himself Tony LaRussa accused anyone of it should tell you how little it happens.

On a common sense level how long do you think other teams would tolerate losing out on players they can use through means they know are against the rules? Combined those things lead me to believe it isn't widespread. In fact I would say it is almost nonexistent strictly based on the fact nobody so much as gets accused of it let alone caught and penalized.

[trwi7]

he has entered a tied game at Wrigley and a 1 run game and completed blew the game wide open, I am counting him costing atleast 1 game.

 

They have bigger issues than Wang, but the team basically is trying to stay in first with one less guy than everyone else.

 

The only game he pitched at Wrigley was a 4-0 loss that he pitched a scoreless inning. If you're talking about the Braves game, the Braves had an 88.1% chance to win when Wang came in and with the bottom of the order facing Kimbrel it probably didn't matter if it was a 1 run game or a 10 run game.

 

Sure you could say maybe they come back if it's a 1 run game but in order to cost the team a game, they have to be winning or at least have the game tied when they come in.

[logan82]

he has entered a tied game at Wrigley and a 1 run game and completed blew the game wide open, I am counting him costing atleast 1 game.

 

They have bigger issues than Wang, but the team basically is trying to stay in first with one less guy than everyone else.

 

The only game he pitched at Wrigley was a 4-0 loss that he pitched a scoreless inning. If you're talking about the Braves game, the Braves had an 88.1% chance to win when Wang came in and with the bottom of the order facing Kimbrel it probably didn't matter if it was a 1 run game or a 10 run game.

 

Sure you could say maybe they come back if it's a 1 run game but in order to cost the team a game, they have to be winning or at least have the game tied when they come in.

Wang wasn't the only option that time either.

[brewcrewdue80]

Wang has never come in to the game with the score tied. He relieved Garza in the 4th inning one game down 1 giving up 4runs(5 if I recall an inherited runner plated)

And then he came in down 1 in the Braves game with the team staring at Kimbrel set to close out the game. Kimbrel the man who had faced the team twice to begin the season to the tune of 2ip 0hits 4ks. Now Kimbrel wasn't used that game but then two games later he closed out a 1run game vs Milw to the tune of 18pitches to K all 3 hitters. So his line now sits at 3ip 0hits 0BBs and 7Ks vs. Milw this year.

Just goes to show you Pitching Wang that day down 1 wasn't affecting the outcome.

 

Now one could argue he affected the outcome of that game he replaced Garza in by giving up 4more runs vs. shutting that team down, but really it's on Garza for giving up 5 Runs in an ineffective 3+ip start.

 

I do feel Wang is costing this team gas money on the bullpen. He's pitched twice this month. A better RP would have likely seen 8-11 appearances I guess at minimum. So that's 6-9 extra appearances our bullpen has spent on gas money. This for the supposed "long man" who should give the bullpen multiple innings of relief when used. So potentially 6-9 appearances could cover 10-15ip. Wang isn't the one who's going to go on the DL with Dead Arm. It's going to be KRod/Smith/Thornburg who does down the road. Now you can begin adding the Wins Wang cost us on the season. Even though he won't be responsible for costing us a win in any single game he appears in.

[TURBO]

It can't be denied that having Wang on the roster has, at times, forced our bullpen to throw more innings than desired.

 

His spot on the roster has to be putting wear and tear on the bull pen arms that having one more guy available to pitch could avoid.

 

I'm afraid that the effect will be felt throughout the season if we don't get this figured out soon.

[brewmann04]

I sure RR cost us wins and the base running has to cost us wins too. They do need to use Wang more .

[Fear The Chorizo]

something's gotta give once both Gorzelanny and Henderson are ready to come off the DL...Wooten will undoubtedly be shipped back to AAA, but I don't see the Brewers carrying 13 pitchers on their roster just to keep Wang around, especially with how inflexible some of the bench players are.

 

two scenarios I see happening, neither being ideal, are:

 

1 -when Ramirez gets back and both Gorzelanny/Henderson are headed to Milwaukee, Overbay gets cut and the Brewers go with 13 pitchers (including 4 lefty relievers...Smith, Gorzo, Duke, and Wang). Not upset with Overbay gone but 13 pitchers is icky...although it'd still be basically 12 pitchers since Wang can't even get out of an inning he started after 40 pitches anymore.

 

2 - Regardless of position player availability, once Gorzelanny/Henderson are headed to Milwaukee, the Brewers choose between keeping Duke and losing Wang back to the Pirates or another team via waivers, or keeping Wang and losing Duke to waivers.

 

Some personnel moves before the all-star break are going to force some tough decisions to be made. At this point you'd think they'll do anything to keep Wang a Brewer, since they've gotten 60 active roster days from him already. Not suggesting anything nefarious, but a DL stint for an injury that isn't requiring surgery looks like a wonderul option for Mr. Wang right now.

[LouisEly]

I think the best scenario would be to trade him for a competitive balance pick or international bonus pool slot. That, or an upper-level 3B prospect.

[trwi7]

I think the best scenario would be to trade him for a competitive balance pick or international bonus pool slot. That, or an upper-level 3B prospect.

 

Who's going to give up a pick or bonus pool and keep him on the roster? That's the problem with any potential trade. First you have to find a team that likes him enough to give that much up and they have to be willing to keep him in the majors. We're better off just keeping him because chances are your offers aren't happening.

[brewcrewdue80]

I think the best scenario would be to trade him for a competitive balance pick or international bonus pool slot. That, or an upper-level 3B prospect.

 

Who's going to give up a pick or bonus pool and keep him on the roster? That's the problem with any potential trade. First you have to find a team that likes him enough to give that much up and they have to be willing to keep him in the majors. We're better off just keeping him because chances are your offers aren't happening.

 

The Cubs. They have 3.96mil in international pool money to spend. But after their over-spending last season they can only spend a max of 250k per player. Based on that limit Chicago would need to sign 15.8 international players at their max allowed to achieve usage of their allotment. So no doubt in my mind the Cubs will most likely be where Milwaukee trades to get the bonus allotment they need to sign Lara without penalty. They can attain 50% of their 2.611mil allotment so that comes to 1,305,500. Remember Wang is considered by the Brewers to be valued about the tail end of a 1st rd. draft pick. Now going in to this year's draft you're talking approximate value of 1.3mil being tied to Miami's 2nd rd pick this year. #43.

Quite simply it works out perfectly for Milwaukee and the Cubs. Who if they can stomach Carlos Marmol for half a season, I'm sure can stomach Wang to finish this half a season while picking up a more advanced pitching prospect than what they can buy with International slot money.

 

Edit add: I surprise myself sometimes when I come up with a smart solution that is just like, whoa! of course, how did we not figure this out already?

Now Maybe this kind of deal was already planned out behind the scenes. It's been known/rumored now for how long on Lara? What if Epstein approached Melvin with this idea way back in the winter meetings? The Cubs didn't select anyone in the Rule 5 draft(likely had a full 40man) And knowing their international spending limitations, offered Milwaukee the max 1.3mil Milw could get in pool money if they selected and held on to Wang for the 90 days limit(doing all the work for Chc) and then they make the trade. At 90days the Cubs as we all know are far out of the playoff picture. They could easily make roster space for Wang then (when Samardzija is traded for one) that they couldn't do in the offseason to protect their own farm system in the rule 5 draft.

I think its it pretty good theory lol

[Roderick]

he has entered a tied game at Wrigley and a 1 run game and completed blew the game wide open, I am counting him costing atleast 1 game.

 

You can't assume a different last guy in the bullpen also wouldn't have given up runs when deciding if Wang has cost us a game. Assuming in the alternate universe, it probably would have been Figaro taking the last spot (Figaro more stretched out than Wooten), what is to say that he would have held teams scoreless?

[LouisEly]

I think the best scenario would be to trade him for a competitive balance pick or international bonus pool slot. That, or an upper-level 3B prospect.

 

Who's going to give up a pick or bonus pool and keep him on the roster? That's the problem with any potential trade. First you have to find a team that likes him enough to give that much up and they have to be willing to keep him in the majors. We're better off just keeping him because chances are your offers aren't happening.

People around here say that if Wang were put on waivers that multiple teams would put in a claim, so apparently there are several teams that would keep him on their roster. If they are willing to claim him and keep him on their roster then they are willing to give up something for him. Maybe it's a 1st round competitive balance pick, maybe it's a 2nd round competitive balance pick, maybe it's $1.2M international bonus pool slot, maybe it's a $200K bonus pool slot. But if they will claim him they will likely give up something for him.

[lcbj68c]

People around here say that if Wang were put on waivers that multiple teams would put in a claim, so apparently there are several teams that would keep him on their roster. If they are willing to claim him and keep him on their roster then they are willing to give up something for him. Maybe it's a 1st round competitive balance pick, maybe it's a 2nd round competitive balance pick, maybe it's $1.2M international bonus pool slot, maybe it's a $200K bonus pool slot. But if they will claim him they will likely give up something for him.

 

 

Or just have the highest waiver priority and wait for the Brewers to dump him without giving up any talent.

[FVBrewerFan]

People around here say that if Wang were put on waivers that multiple teams would put in a claim, so apparently there are several teams that would keep him on their roster. If they are willing to claim him and keep him on their roster then they are willing to give up something for him.

 

Or, it could be mis-direction from other teams. Easy to say you're interested, but would anyone actually claim him?

 

Either way, it shouldn't matter. His stuff isn't special, even at his best I haven't seen any of pitches being plus pitches. I just see no reason to keep a spot for a guy that can't help a pennant contender win games. I would rather have another bat (Green, Gindl) or another reliever than someone who is only used when you're down 17-1.

 

The last arm in the bullpen can be used beyond mop-up duties. There are extra innings games, games when a couple guys aren't available due to high workload, etc. If it's the difference between winning or losing one game, makes no sense for Wang to waste a roster spot.

[reillymcshane]

 

Or, it could be mis-direction from other teams. Easy to say you're interested, but would anyone actually claim him?

 

"It's a smoke screen? Double bluff? Look, you obviously don't know anything about intelligence work, lady. It's an XK Red 27 technique." - Otto

 

(Sorry if no one gets the reference, but I couldn't resist, it's one of the funniest movies ever.)

[brewmann04]

I thought if the brewers let him go he has to go to Pittsburgh