What do you think of our Wang? Slot Worthy?

[brewmann04]

We agree that Wang is over his head but hopefully we agree he has good potential too.

I also hope we agree Wang is not the main cause for this team falling right now.

[trwi7]

For the love of god, you people act like Wang is this Randy Johnson clone. HE CAN'T EVEN GET THREE BATTERS OUT. Get him out of here and bring somebody that has actually earned the spot up from Nashville. This kid needs YEARS in the minors, not one.

 

You do realize Randy Johnson walked almost 100 batters in 160 innings with an ERA around 5 in his second big league season at age 25 right?

 

It's not like he came up and boom he's the Randy Johnson everyone knows now.

 

He's not hurting the team and he has the upside to become a quality starter. Keep him.

[brewmann04]

THANKS TRWL

[brewcrewdue80]

For the love of god, you people act like Wang is this Randy Johnson clone. HE CAN'T EVEN GET THREE BATTERS OUT. Get him out of here and bring somebody that has actually earned the spot up from Nashville. This kid needs YEARS in the minors, not one.

 

You do realize Randy Johnson walked almost 100 batters in 160 innings with an ERA around 5 in his second big league season at age 25 right?

 

It's not like he came up and boom he's the Randy Johnson everyone knows now.

 

He's not hurting the team and he has the upside to become a quality starter. Keep him.

 

Randy Johnson threw 100MPH Fastballs. Wang doesn't have 95 in him.

 

 

Superfly: Which individual/(s) made it feel like we were discussing the next Randy Johnson potential with Wang? That is about as extreme a high upside potential one could take thinking of Wang's future potential. This year's draft class is filled with potential SP studs, but even putting Randy Johnson's name of future potential to any of them would be far to extreme.

 

On the agreeable note, you're right that it's going to take Years in the minors to get Wang back up on the ML Roster.

[brewmann04]

Wang right now if in the minors would be one of the top Pitching prospects especially being a Lefty with starters potential.A ball club can never have enough pitching.

[lcbj68c]

(Wang on the roster) is not a project. It's not an experiment. It's not a charade. It is a conscious decision to keep him in the system and take him from a division opponent via the rules of the Rule 5 draft. It's not a test tube situation where the Brewers are scratching their heads saying, "huh, that "experiment" didn't work", let's throw out the results and experiment with somebody else."

 

To be clear, I too want Wang in Brevard, but the Brewers don't just get to poach talent from other organizations without following the rules. Wang doesn't have to pitch another day in the majors beyond 2014 and I still wouldn't see the problem with him giving up some gopher balls in games that are likely lost already for other reasons (like scoring runs on offense), just on the slimest of chances that he might produce something 4 years from now at the age of 26. The question isn't what he's showing today, it's can he be kept in the organization to grow into something that is completely different that what he can show today? Why we aren't willing to to have him on the roster for 90 days to get a shot to develop him over the next 4 years blows my mind. This team is winning at a .620+ clip WITH HIM and if it wasn't for offensive ineptitude, we'd have the best record in the major leagues. The belief that Duke being the long man and Nelson being in the bullpen and Wang sitting in Brevard (After that fallacy of a trade with Pittsburg AFTER no team claims him and Pittsburg says, "nah we won't pay 25k to get him back) doesn't add any wins to the register. That move doesn't make us any more of a playoff contender than where we sit now. I realize my view point that he isn't hurting the team isn't shared universally, but to get some talent infused into the minor league system, I'm willing to have Wang be the sole reason we lose a few games this season. I've yet to see that happen and the belief that the bullpen is full of dead arms as a result also isn't bearing fruit in the numbers.

[HiAndTight]

 

Randy Johnson threw 100MPH Fastballs. Wang doesn't have 95 in him.

 

 

Superfly: Which individual/(s) made it feel like we were discussing the next Randy Johnson potential with Wang? That is about as extreme a high upside potential one could take thinking of Wang's future potential. This year's draft class is filled with potential SP studs, but even putting Randy Johnson's name of future potential to any of them would be far to extreme.

 

On the agreeable note, you're right that it's going to take Years in the minors to get Wang back up on the ML Roster.

 

 

Wang DOES have 95 in him, and why does he have to be Randy Johnson or Johan Santana for him to be worth keeping?

 

But since we want to use FB velocity to compare them, Santana had an average FB of 91.0 MPH the year the Twins kept him on their roster as a rule V draftee.

 

I am just not sure it's worth it anymore.

 

I would guess there is maybe a 10% chance of Wang living up to the "mid first round pick" status that some people are putting on him.

I would guess the chance is at least 50% that he never pitches at the MLB level after this season.

Everyone is afraid of losing out on the next Johan Santana, but for every one of those, you get 10 Enrique Cruz's and Jeff Bennett's.

 

I'm not sure what exactly has happened that suggests it's not worth it anymore.

 

He's pitched in 6 games. Given up 0 runs in 3 of them which we lost anyway. Came in for Garza when he had a short start and saved the BP like a long man should do, came in the bottom of the 8th of a game we were down 3 and got rocked and then he got rocked in a close game that we were VERY unlikely to win.

 

 

But lets say you're assessment is accurate. Even if he "only," has a 10 percent chance to live up to the mid first round pick that some people are putting on him(we're actually quoting Melvin). Is that not in and of itself worth it?

 

And I'm not afraid we're going to lose Johan Santana. I'm worried we're going to lose a very talented young pitcher who MIGHT end up being a very effective big league pitcher. He's the 25th guy on the roster. He's not costing us anything and he doesn't even have to be on our active 25 man roster much longer.

 

I'm curious what people who are changing their mind expected of him coming into the season? He's extremely raw. But he's also got a very good arm. He needs to develop, and in a perfect world, he'd be in our farm system doing just that, and we'd likely be getting very excited following him in Brevard County as a lefty who works in the low 90's, and has the potential for two good pitches.

 

But it's not a perfect world, and dumping him now only gives a Pirates organization that has a loaded farm system another talented young player to develop.

[Pugger]

For the love of god, you people act like Wang is this Randy Johnson clone. HE CAN'T EVEN GET THREE BATTERS OUT. Get him out of here and bring somebody that has actually earned the spot up from Nashville. This kid needs YEARS in the minors, not one.

 

Not only is he not getting the work he needs in the minors his confidence must be in the toilet now after getting shellacked every time he is put out there. We aren't doing him any favors with this situation.

[Pugger]

For the love of god, you people act like Wang is this Randy Johnson clone. HE CAN'T EVEN GET THREE BATTERS OUT. Get him out of here and bring somebody that has actually earned the spot up from Nashville. This kid needs YEARS in the minors, not one.

 

You do realize Randy Johnson walked almost 100 batters in 160 innings with an ERA around 5 in his second big league season at age 25 right?

 

It's not like he came up and boom he's the Randy Johnson everyone knows now.

 

He's not hurting the team and he has the upside to become a quality starter. Keep him.

 

He might have upside but this kid should be in the minors where we can work with him and not in the bigs getting hammered.

[Pugger]

 

Randy Johnson threw 100MPH Fastballs. Wang doesn't have 95 in him.

 

 

Superfly: Which individual/(s) made it feel like we were discussing the next Randy Johnson potential with Wang? That is about as extreme a high upside potential one could take thinking of Wang's future potential. This year's draft class is filled with potential SP studs, but even putting Randy Johnson's name of future potential to any of them would be far to extreme.

 

On the agreeable note, you're right that it's going to take Years in the minors to get Wang back up on the ML Roster.

 

 

Wang DOES have 95 in him, and why does he have to be Randy Johnson or Johan Santana for him to be worth keeping?

 

But since we want to use FB velocity to compare them, Santana had an average FB of 91.0 MPH the year the Twins kept him on their roster as a rule V draftee.

 

I am just not sure it's worth it anymore.

 

I would guess there is maybe a 10% chance of Wang living up to the "mid first round pick" status that some people are putting on him.

I would guess the chance is at least 50% that he never pitches at the MLB level after this season.

Everyone is afraid of losing out on the next Johan Santana, but for every one of those, you get 10 Enrique Cruz's and Jeff Bennett's.

 

I'm not sure what exactly has happened that suggests it's not worth it anymore.

 

He's pitched in 6 games. Given up 0 runs in 3 of them which we lost anyway. Came in for Garza when he had a short start and saved the BP like a long man should do, came in the bottom of the 8th of a game we were down 3 and got rocked and then he got rocked in a close game that we were VERY unlikely to win.

 

 

But lets say you're assessment is accurate. Even if he "only," has a 10 percent chance to live up to the mid first round pick that some people are putting on him(we're actually quoting Melvin). Is that not in and of itself worth it?

 

And I'm not afraid we're going to lose Johan Santana. I'm worried we're going to lose a very talented young pitcher who MIGHT end up being a very effective big league pitcher. He's the 25th guy on the roster. He's not costing us anything and he doesn't even have to be on our active 25 man roster much longer.

 

I'm curious what people who are changing their mind expected of him coming into the season? He's extremely raw. But he's also got a very good arm. He needs to develop, and in a perfect world, he'd be in our farm system doing just that, and we'd likely be getting very excited following him in Brevard County as a lefty who works in the low 90's, and has the potential for two good pitches.

 

But it's not a perfect world, and dumping him now only gives a Pirates organization that has a loaded farm system another talented young player to develop.

 

Are you referring to the game the other night in Atlanta? We were only down one run.

[Patrick425]

The fact remains that Wang has cost us zero games, and even last night (a loss which he did not cause) the issue was Roenicke's idiotic decision to pitch him there.

 

You do realize that there are ways to cost a team a win as a pitcher other than actually giving up the lead in a game, right?

 

Who do you think Roenicke should have pitched last night instead of Wang?

 

How many teams have used one position player to pitch this year, much less 2?! Tonight's game is turning into a "mop up" type game, so now what do they do? Wang threw a lot of pitches last night, so I'm guessing he will not be used, so they have to turn to using the "actual" pitchers with the threat of having another situation in the near future that Wang needs to be used in a close game situation because we have run out of arms? Can you see how Wang can cost the Brewers games without actually pitching?

 

What ways are those? Because last I checked the games were still decided based on runs, the Braves scored 5 runs on non-Wang pitchers, and the Brewers only scored 4 (including getting to hit against not-Kimbrel).

 

There is zero reason to use Wang in close games. Roenicke is an idiot for having used him last night, because now in an actual mop-up situation he won't be available most likely.

 

We got through almost two months with an incredible record, a high number of 1-2 run games taxing the back of the bullpen, with the best record in baseball, and Wang was not an issue. Now he is a huge problem because our offense sucks??

 

Again, please tell me who you think Roenicke should have used in that situation.

 

Saying for certainty that Wang has not cost the Brewers any games is like saying that Overbay or Bianchi has not cost the Brewers any games. There is a very good chance that horrible offensive numbers that some of the bench players have put up has possibly cost the Brewers runs and opportunities to win an additional game or two. After 46 games there is a pitcher in the bullpen who has only pitched 7 2/3 innings (and not very effectively). If you can't see how this may put a strain on other arms in the bullpen and possibly cost the Brewers a game or two because of other pitchers being forced to pitch when they shouldn't, then I'm not sure how to make my point. They are basically playing with 24 players while the rest of the league plays with 25.

 

The Brewers still have a good record with Wang and will probably not end up winning only 60 games because he is on the team. However sometimes the difference between making the playoffs and not making the playoffs is one or two games.

 

Edit: To be fair, I was going by how Schroeder and BA were reacting to putting Wang in without looking at who had pitched recently. You are correct, Not sure why they didn't put in someone like Duke who had only pitched 1 2/3 innings in the previous 4 games.

[brewmann04]

(Wang on the roster) is not a project. It's not an experiment. It's not a charade. It is a conscious decision to keep him in the system and take him from a division opponent via the rules of the Rule 5 draft. It's not a test tube situation where the Brewers are scratching their heads saying, "huh, that "experiment" didn't work", let's throw out the results and experiment with somebody else."

 

To be clear, I too want Wang in Brevard, but the Brewers don't just get to poach talent from other organizations without following the rules. Wang doesn't have to pitch another day in the majors beyond 2014 and I still wouldn't see the problem with him giving up some gopher balls in games that are likely lost already for other reasons (like scoring runs on offense), just on the slimest of chances that he might produce something 4 years from now at the age of 26. The question isn't what he's showing today, it's can he be kept in the organization to grow into something that is completely different that what he can show today? Why we aren't willing to to have him on the roster for 90 days to get a shot to develop him over the next 4 years blows my mind. This team is winning at a .620+ clip WITH HIM and if it wasn't for offensive ineptitude, we'd have the best record in the major leagues. The belief that Duke being the long man and Nelson being in the bullpen and Wang sitting in Brevard (After that fallacy of a trade with Pittsburg AFTER no team claims him and Pittsburg says, "nah we won't pay 25k to get him back) doesn't add any wins to the register. That move doesn't make us any more of a playoff contender than where we sit now. I realize my view point that he isn't hurting the team isn't shared universally, but to get some talent infused into the minor league system, I'm willing to have Wang be the sole reason we lose a few games this season. I've yet to see that happen and the belief that the bullpen is full of dead arms as a result also isn't bearing fruit in the numbers.

Great post you need to keep this kid here and it gives them a promising Lefty for the Future and think Wang has not lost as many games as the Hitter have recently.

[JohnBriggs12]

(Wang on the roster) is not a project. It's not an experiment. It's not a charade. It is a conscious decision to keep him in the system and take him from a division opponent via the rules of the Rule 5 draft. It's not a test tube situation where the Brewers are scratching their heads saying, "huh, that "experiment" didn't work", let's throw out the results and experiment with somebody else."

 

To be clear, I too want Wang in Brevard, but the Brewers don't just get to poach talent from other organizations without following the rules. Wang doesn't have to pitch another day in the majors beyond 2014 and I still wouldn't see the problem with him giving up some gopher balls in games that are likely lost already for other reasons (like scoring runs on offense), just on the slimest of chances that he might produce something 4 years from now at the age of 26. The question isn't what he's showing today, it's can he be kept in the organization to grow into something that is completely different that what he can show today? Why we aren't willing to to have him on the roster for 90 days to get a shot to develop him over the next 4 years blows my mind. This team is winning at a .620+ clip WITH HIM and if it wasn't for offensive ineptitude, we'd have the best record in the major leagues. The belief that Duke being the long man and Nelson being in the bullpen and Wang sitting in Brevard (After that fallacy of a trade with Pittsburg AFTER no team claims him and Pittsburg says, "nah we won't pay 25k to get him back) doesn't add any wins to the register. That move doesn't make us any more of a playoff contender than where we sit now. I realize my view point that he isn't hurting the team isn't shared universally, but to get some talent infused into the minor league system, I'm willing to have Wang be the sole reason we lose a few games this season. I've yet to see that happen and the belief that the bullpen is full of dead arms as a result also isn't bearing fruit in the numbers.

Great post you need to keep this kid here and it gives them a promising Lefty for the Future and think Wang has not lost as many games as the Hitter have recently.

 

I don't think the Pittsburgh brass is losing any sleep whatsover over loss of Wang. He was never at a stage where he was anything more than one piece of their low level pitching inventory. Those inventory levels rise and fall all the time. One arm doesn't make a ripple unless it's a Kershaw or a Sale type talent which Wang is not. I don't even think it's a slam dunk that Pirates take him back. Remember they'd have to put him on their 40 man and start his options clock which they weren't willing to do last winter. He's likely going to run out of options before he's major league ready.

[logan82]

On most teams Wang probably would have been sent down already. However almost every single team has that back end of the bullpen guy who isn't good at all. They may rotatate a few guys between the majors and minors all season so I don't see how it hurts us to just keep Wang.

 

The manager's options in the first Atlanta game were Wang, Smith, and Thornburg. He didn't choose wisely.

[brewmann04]

HE DIDN"T CHOOSE WISELY IS AN UNDERSTATMENT

[lcbj68c]

 

I don't think the Pittsburgh brass is losing any sleep whatsover over loss of Wang. He was never at a stage where he was anything more than one piece of their low level pitching inventory. Those inventory levels rise and fall all the time. One arm doesn't make a ripple unless it's a Kershaw or a Sale type talent which Wang is not. I don't even think it's a slam dunk that Pirates take him back. Remember they'd have to put him on their 40 man and start his options clock which they weren't willing to do last winter. He's likely going to run out of options before he's major league ready.

 

Briggs, I'm begging you to learn the rules of the Rule 5 Draft. While it may not change your opinion that Wang will never reach a level above AA, it might facilitate your knowledge of WHY the Brewers are acting as they are, aside from their evaluation of Wang's talent. If Wang clears waivers and is offered back to the Pirates for 25k, they DO NOT have to put him on their 40-man roster if they accept him back. Wang would have no rights and would be back on the Pirates High-A team. Secondly, many players run out of options before they are major league ready. Wang may NEVER become major league ready. It's my opinion that is not a good enough reason to not try and develop him after the Brewers have satisfied the requirements of the Rule 5 Draft.

[lcbj68c]

Saying for certainty that Wang has not cost the Brewers any games is like saying that Overbay or Bianchi has not cost the Brewers any games. There is a very good chance that horrible offensive numbers that some of the bench players have put up has possibly cost the Brewers runs and opportunities to win an additional game or two. After 46 games there is a pitcher in the bullpen who has only pitched 7 2/3 innings (and not very effectively). If you can't see how this may put a strain on other arms in the bullpen and possibly cost the Brewers a game or two because of other pitchers being forced to pitch when they shouldn't, then I'm not sure how to make my point. They are basically playing with 24 players while the rest of the league plays with 25.

 

The Brewers still have a good record with Wang and will probably not end up winning only 60 games because he is on the team. However sometimes the difference between making the playoffs and not making the playoffs is one or two games.

 

The Brewers are playing with 25 guys just like all the other 29 teams. Looking down at the 13th pitcher for a lot of clubs and I see similiar numbers of innings pitched. While the results may be better, I don't see it taxing the other men in the bullpen. Lots of guys cost teams games. ANOTHER arm from Nashville could come and "cost the Brewers a game" as the 13th pitcher. Where your opinion and mine differ is that I don't have a problem if Wang is solely responsible for costing us a couple wins, all by himself. Wouldn't care. However, I don't think Wang is SOLELY responsible for costing this team any games yet this season. I don't think if you replace Wang with Nelson that the Brewers have a single additional win. The playoffs are not riding on the 13th pitcher being lights out with MLB stuff. It just isn't.

 

While it's a seperate note, this hot streak to open the season has gotten people the case of "playoff fever". I thought we were a 78 win team to be honest and that is seemingly the situation where people would be okay with having Wang for 90 days to be able to put him back in the minors. Suddenly, because we've marched out to a 6.5 game lead as of May 10th, we have to approach the roster construction differently? Even though with Wang we've marched to that lead, if we miss out on the playoffs by one game, somebody is going to bring up that bad outing in Atlanta and blame the whole season on that decision? This team is not a 103 game winner. But they were winning at that clip WITH Wang! I have no problems with them managing the roster like the 78-win team I believe them to be AND having over their heads success in the process all while following the rules and stacking talent in the minors. If Wang, all by himself, costs us a handful of games, I'm fine with it.

[JohnBriggs12]

 

I don't think the Pittsburgh brass is losing any sleep whatsover over loss of Wang. He was never at a stage where he was anything more than one piece of their low level pitching inventory. Those inventory levels rise and fall all the time. One arm doesn't make a ripple unless it's a Kershaw or a Sale type talent which Wang is not. I don't even think it's a slam dunk that Pirates take him back. Remember they'd have to put him on their 40 man and start his options clock which they weren't willing to do last winter. He's likely going to run out of options before he's major league ready.

 

Briggs, I'm begging you to learn the rules of the Rule 5 Draft. While it may not change your opinion that Wang will never reach a level above AA, it might facilitate your knowledge of WHY the Brewers are acting as they are, aside from their evaluation of Wang's talent. If Wang clears waivers and is offered back to the Pirates for 25k, they DO NOT have to put him on their 40-man roster if they accept him back. Wang would have no rights and would be back on the Pirates High-A team. Secondly, many players run out of options before they are major league ready. Wang may NEVER become major league ready. It's my opinion that is not a good enough reason to not try and develop him after the Brewers have satisfied the requirements of the Rule 5 Draft.

 

Pardon me for not knowing all the rules of the Rule 5 draft. It doesn't change the fact that he doesn't belong on the Brewer roster. The Brewers have enough major league caliber pitchers to fill out a 12 man staff. In fact they have a few more than that. Wang is taking a spot that others have actually earned. They also have dozens of young guys toiling in the minors to get to that level. They took a shot, hoping he'd be effective enough to at least be comparable to most 12th guys on a staff. He's not. I also don't buy the argument that he's not causing issues because he's been accepted in the clubhouse. I'm sure that's true for those who are not affected by his being there, but I have to think a Rob Wooten who worked his butt off for years to get to the big leagues isn't too thrilled about Wang's presence.

[Patrick425]

If Wang was not a Rule 5 pitcher and for some inexplicable reason Wang was on the active roster I don't think there would be one person on this board not clamoring for him to be sent down. So, I'm not really buying all of this "He's not doing any harm or costing us any games so whats the big deal" as being the reason for not getting rid of him. If it were any other situation, no one would want him on the active roster.

 

I think it's simply a difference of opinion of whether the risk/reward is worth it. I personally don't think it is. Not for a contending team. In my opinion a contending team should not have a player with only rookie league experience and who has shown that he's no where near ready for the majors on the active roster. If we were the Astros or Cubs or a team like that, fine, but not this year for the Brewers.

[lcbj68c]

If Wang was not a Rule 5 pitcher and for some inexplicable reason Wang was on the active roster I don't think there would be one person on this board not clamoring for him to be sent down. So, I'm not really buying all of this "He's not doing any harm or costing us any games so whats the big deal" as being the reason for not getting rid of him. If it were any other situation, no one would want him on the active roster.

 

I think it's simply a difference of opinion of whether the risk/reward is worth it. I personally don't think it is. Not for a contending team. In my opinion a contending team should not have a player with only rookie league experience and who has shown that he's no where near ready for the majors on the active roster. If we were the Astros or Cubs or a team like that, fine, but not this year for the Brewers.

 

I acknowledged that he MAY indeed cost them some games, but all by himself? Even if he does, I'm okay with the 25th man on the roster being solely responsible for losses. We are the Astros or Cubs..we are! Don't let this mirage of April fool you. Wang has not stopped us from contending, has he? I keep hearing that playoff teams can't possibly have a Wang on their roster in April & May. Are we not a first place team with Wang? Are the May struggles the result of Wang pitching as the 25th man on the team? Would we have clinched the division by now with "someone who's deserved it" pitching in that role instead?

[lcbj68c]

Pardon me for not knowing all the rules of the Rule 5 draft. It doesn't change the fact that he doesn't belong on the Brewer roster. The Brewers have enough major league caliber pitchers to fill out a 12 man staff. In fact they have a few more than that. Wang is taking a spot that others have actually earned. They also have dozens of young guys toiling in the minors to get to that level. They took a shot, hoping he'd be effective enough to at least be comparable to most 12th guys on a staff. He's not. Goodbye and good luck son.

 

You're absolutely right. He doesn't belong on the major league roster. But that is the rules of the Rule 5 Draft. I disagree that they "took a shot, hoping he'd be effective." Rather, they made a decision and were willing to live with this known outcome. It wasn't an experiment that simply didn't work.

[Patrick425]

We are the Astros or Cubs..we are! Don't let this mirage of April fool you.

 

Wow..I thought I was pessimistic!

[LouisEly]

The silver lining may be that with Wang pitching poorly it may lower the cost of working out a trade with PIT to keep him. Maybe the Brewers can get him for a Jose Pena, Gian Rizzo, Jorge Lopez, or Chris McFarland. I'm not as high on Arcia as most, so I might even consider trading him for Wang.

[torts]

The silver lining may be that with Wang pitching poorly it may lower the cost of working out a trade with PIT to keep him. Maybe the Brewers can get him for a Jose Pena, Gian Rizzo, Jorge Lopez, or Chris McFarland. I'm not as high on Arcia as most, so I might even consider trading him for Wang.

 

its been made known that he wont clear waivers to even make working a trade out with the pirates possible

[Thurston Fluff]

Not only is he not getting the work he needs in the minors his confidence must be in the toilet now after getting shellacked every time he is put out there. We aren't doing him any favors with this situation.

 

He hasn't been shellacked every time out. For every time he gets hammered he does well another outing. I also think you have to take into account Wang knows the situation. He's not someone living in a vacuum who was completely convinced he was ready for this level. He knows he has room to improve thus he knows the results today do not necessarily translate to the same results three years down the road. He may even be smart enough to figure out how to make this situation beneficial to his long term success. It is as reasonable to think he is using the lessons learned now and apply in later as it is to think his confidence is being completely destroyed forever.