What do you think of our Wang? Slot Worthy?

[logan82]

but the Brewers don't simply pass Wang through waivers first.

 

Yes they do. He goes through waivers. If he's not claimed then he's offered back to the Pirates for $25,000. If the Pirates don't want him back (which seems highly unlikely to me) then the Brewers could send him to the minors. But every team would have to pass on him, not just the Pirates and since he's so young and appears to have a pretty good ceiling, you would think at least one rebuilding team would bite the bullet for a year and keep him on their roster.

Gah. I (incorrectly) remembered that it was established earlier in this thread that he was offered back to the original club first!

 

Apologies to Outlander... and I think I'll once again give up on trying to understand all of MLB's roster transaction rules.

or you could check Cot's.

[logan82]

Since this is also applicable since some people think we can just send him to the DL.

DL him in July, give him 2-3 weeks off, Send him to AA for 30 days(aug) , bring him back up Sept 1 to basically sit/pitch blow outs

He would have to actually be injured. Kind of hard when he almost never pitches.

[ewitkows]

Arm atrophy

[JohnBriggs12]

Really I don't care who gets Wang but he doesn't belong on a contending team and if he goes back to the Pirates that's fine because I don't expect him to be haunting the Brewers anytime soon if ever. He'll probably run out of options before he's ready to pitch in the big leagues anyway in which case the Brewers can take another crack at him. The Brewers tried young Rule 5 guys before. Remember Matt Ford and Enrique Cruz? Neither did anything in the big leagues after that and compared to Wang, they were grizzled vets.

[SoupTown]

I love all the Wang naysayers simply say the same thing over and over... 'on a contending team you cannot have the 13th man in the pen who is not lights out'. In spite of dozens and dozens of factual retorts, each retort is ignored the same ONE sentence is trotted out - with no logic or explanation or reasoning: 'simply you CANNOT have WANG on the BREWERS because WE SAID SO.'

[502 to Right]

I love all the Wang naysayers simply say the same thing over and over... 'on a contending team you cannot have the 13th man in the pen who is not lights out'.

 

 

I'm not looking for a "lights out" last man in the bullpen. I'm looking for someone with an ERA below, say, 6.00. That's not a lot to ask.

 

I would have no problem taking a chance on Wang if he could actually get some big league hitters out. But we've seen so far this season that he can't. And when you look at the historical odds he is facing (i.e., what other pitcher in baseball history has pitched effectively in the majors with only one season of Rookie ball under his belt), I think it is extremely doubtful that Wang will be anything but a dumpster fire when coming out of the bullpen this season.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

If we have Wooten, Figaro and even Fiers and Nelson on the Nashville shuttle...plus a Henderson and Gorzo on the DL, there are plenty of options to keep young Mr. Wang buried deep in the bullpen, to be used as the last stop before Maldonado. Just doesn't seem he's hurting anything. It will just require Melvin to be more active with player moves.

[MadScientist]

Since this is also applicable since some people think we can just send him to the DL.

DL him in July, give him 2-3 weeks off, Send him to AA for 30 days(aug) , bring him back up Sept 1 to basically sit/pitch blow outs

He would have to actually be injured. Kind of hard when he almost never pitches.

He can easily pull something dancing.

 

I was hoping he'd look a little better than he has, but he hasn't looked any worse than Wooten this year.

[SRB]

I love all the Wang naysayers simply say the same thing over and over... 'on a contending team you cannot have the 13th man in the pen who is not lights out'.

 

 

I'm not looking for a "lights out" last man in the bullpen. I'm looking for someone with an ERA below, say, 6.00. That's not a lot to ask.

 

I would have no problem taking a chance on Wang if he could actually get some big league hitters out. But we've seen so far this season that he can't. And when you look at the historical odds he is facing (i.e., what other pitcher in baseball history has pitched effectively in the majors with only one season of Rookie ball under his belt), I think it is extremely doubtful that Wang will be anything but a dumpster fire when coming out of the bullpen this season.

 

Does that disqualify Rob Wooten now too? 7.71 ERA right now over a slightly larger tiny sample size.

 

Wang's had two rough outings in his first few appearances above Rookie ball, but looked fine in his other two appearance, and looked great all during Spring Training (not the same thing obviously, but he was getting MLB hitters out). Who's to say his two implosions were not just initial nerves?

 

There are plenty of pitchers who went straight to the majors. I'm not saying Wang is a Catfish-Hunter-level talent, but all he needs to be is a mediocre-or-worse long reliever so we can get him into the system.

[Patrick425]

Most "mop up" guys on other teams are also available and have enough experience to pitch even when there is a shortage of arms situation such as the Brewers have had recently. The Brewers are unable and unwilling to use Wang in those situations so this puts strain on other arms in the bullpen (or takes away a position player because they have to call up an extra arm for the bullpen). Hi and Tight made mention that he's on pace for 30 innings and that there have been lots of WS teams with guys in the bullpen that have only pitched 30 innings. What he fails to mention is that none of those guys were on the active roster for the entire season. Show me a WS team that had a pitcher stay on the active roster from April 1 through Sept 30, get only 30 innings pitched, and have an ERA over 6.

 

If this guy was a highly touted, well known prospect that everyone was clamoring about, then maybe it would be worth it. However, I don't see that here. Not sure how deep Baseball America goes in their prospect rankings, but my guess is that Wang would not even crack the top 500.

 

If you don't think 4 IP is enough to go by, what is? Is there any point where you would say, OK, this experiment has run it's course, time to move on? In my mind, he doesn't have to be "light's out", but he has to be at least close to deserving of a MLB roster spot. I don't think he is.

[502 to Right]

I love all the Wang naysayers simply say the same thing over and over... 'on a contending team you cannot have the 13th man in the pen who is not lights out'.

 

 

I'm not looking for a "lights out" last man in the bullpen. I'm looking for someone with an ERA below, say, 6.00. That's not a lot to ask.

 

I would have no problem taking a chance on Wang if he could actually get some big league hitters out. But we've seen so far this season that he can't. And when you look at the historical odds he is facing (i.e., what other pitcher in baseball history has pitched effectively in the majors with only one season of Rookie ball under his belt), I think it is extremely doubtful that Wang will be anything but a dumpster fire when coming out of the bullpen this season.

 

Does that disqualify Rob Wooten now too? 7.71 ERA right now over a slightly larger tiny sample size.

 

I don't expect Rob Wooten will be on the roster for very long. When pitchers not named "Wang" suck, they get sent down or released.

[Thurston Fluff]

I'm not looking for a "lights out" last man in the bullpen. I'm looking for someone with an ERA below, say, 6.00. That's not a lot to ask.

 

Not sure if ERA matters for a guy who projects to have 30ish innings of mop up duty. What matters for a mop up guy is if he can eat innings and save the rest of the pen. I think he showed he can do that. I get we could have someone more competent doing it but given the nature of the games he will be pitching in it is hardly worth wasting a potential starter under control for five more years of major league service time and options left to have that guy on the roster.

[Patrick425]

What matters for a mop up guy is if he can eat innings and save the rest of the pen. I think he showed he can do that.

 

You think 4 innings in 29 games is "eating innings" and "saving the rest of the pen"?? I don't see anything that shows he can do that or that the Brewers are willing to allow him to do that. I challange anyone to find another team that has a guy in their bullpen that has been on the active roster since the beginning of the season (no games missed because of injury or DL stints) and has 4IP and a 15 ERA. You are not going to find one because it's unwise to keep a guy on your team that can only pitch in very specific situations and can't get guys out when he does pitch in those situations.

[sveumrules]

Those 4 innings in 29 games are completely dependent on the context of the season to date. There have not been many more opportunities, if any, to pitch Wang because of the inordinate number of close games we've been involved in. In which specific game did Roenicke use one of our top relievers in a blowout situation because he was afraid to use Wang? If the last man in our bullpen was someone other than Wang to this point in the season how many more appearances/innings would that hypothetical reliever have? How many more victories would the team have?

[Fear The Chorizo]

Just for some perspective, here are Johan Santana's and Wang's comparative splits for their 1st month in the majors after being Rule 5 guys and making MLB 25 man rosters.

 

Johan Santana - 21 yrs old

 

0-2 record (3 starts), 15IP, 5 game appearances, WHIP 2.4, K/BB ratio 1.0, Opp BA 0.400, ERA 10.20

 

Wang - 22 yrs old

 

0-0 record (0 starts), 6IP, 4 game appearances, WHIP 2.5, K/BB ratio 1.5, Opp BA 0.419, ERA 15.00

 

for reality check perspective, the Twins finished that 2000 season 69-93, so they had every opportunity to keep Santana around without it impacting postseason aspirations.

 

Fiers or Nelson would be terrible alternatives for Wang's spot on the roster, because it would unnecessarily burn a year of service time for them to pitch in equally low-leverage innings, in Nelson's case cost them minor league starts that hamper development, and limit the organization's starting pitcher insurance in case one of the MLB arms misses time...and we may soon see that sort of callup happen over the next few days with Garza's thumb issue. The argument right now has to be whether replacing Wang with Wooten/Figaro/Burgos on the 25 man means enough from a W/L perspective to warrant taking a young LH pitcher with a good arm out of your organization. IMO the Brewers record would still be 20-9 whether Wang made the roster out of spring training or not, so to me it's worth keeping him in Milwaukee...at least for now.

 

I think the bigger decision will come whenever Gorzelanny's able to come off the DL - if the team's still playing well, they're not going to carry 4 LH relievers. Both Duke and Gorzelanny give them flexibility to go multiple innings and have MLB starting experience. At that time, the decision would come down to choosing whether Duke or Wang sticks around. If I'm not mistaken Duke could be claimed on waivers by any other MLB team if he's sent down/released, so sticking with Wang at that point would likely mean losing Duke altogether, not just sending him to AAA.

[Fear The Chorizo]

You think 4 innings in 29 games is "eating innings" and "saving the rest of the pen"??

 

It's actually 6 IP....over 4 appearances.

[Raw Biz]

Wang has not really had the opportunity that a "regular" last man in the pen would have had by now. The Brewers haven't really been blown out in many games and haven't blown out teams in many games either. As the season goes on, this should change and he will see more innings.

 

I also think he should be given some opportunities in certain LOOGY situations. For instance, when we're up by 3 or even down by 3, against lesser hitters. Let him face one batter. Worst case, that guy hits a HR.

 

If Martin Maldonado can get big league hitters out, Wang should be able to as well. (/half blue).

[Patrick425]

In which specific game did Roenicke use one of our top relievers in a blowout situation because he was afraid to use Wang?

 

The better question is in which games did Roenicke use a guy that had already pitched several times in the last 3 or 4 games because he was afraid to put Wang in there (something that a normal "mop up" guy would be expected to do once in a while)?

 

I think there would have been at least 2 or 3 instances, especially in the last 7-10 games, where a typical "mop up / long relief" role guy would have been called upon to come in for a "non - mop up/long relief" situation just for the sake of giving some arms a rest. How many more victories would we have? I don't know, maybe zero. However, some of that stuff is very hard to quantify. Other pitchers are being asked to pitch more to because the bullpen is basically operating one man short. Who knows what kind of affect that will have on bullpen arms down the road.

[Fear The Chorizo]

In the last 11 games, the Brewers have a 7-4 record, and have gone 3-1 in extra inning games (13 extra bullpen IP). During this timeframe, Wang appeared in both games that were "out of hand" late (4-0 cubs loss and 9-3 cards loss), and logged 4 innings. The brewers don't have a single game during that stretch where they exploded on offense and allowed the pen an easy ride to victory.

 

If Wang, Wooten, or any other bottom of the bullpen arm throws more often than what Wang did during this stretch, the Brewers probably lose several of those games....they sure as heck don't win more. Part of the problem lately with taxing the bullpen, and frankly for most of this young season, is the lack of offense. Only in the Phillies series did the offense put games out of reach, and many of those runs were scored very late in the game after key relievers were being used. It's not that they're not scoring enough to consistently win, there just hasn't been the occasional 7-9 run outburst after 6 innings in a game that gives a starter and the pen the night off from having to grind out a victory. Part of that, quite frankly, is because the rest of the pen's been unsustainably fantastic - outside of Henderson/Wooten last night. It's the reason the Brewers are the only team in baseball with 20 wins so far this season.

[TooLiveBrew]

Apologies to Outlander... and I think I'll once again give up on trying to understand all of MLB's roster transaction rules.

or you could check Cot's.

I reject your simple & common sense solutions & instead choose to live in the darkness!

[Thurston Fluff]

You think 4 innings in 29 games is "eating innings" and "saving the rest of the pen"??

 

Yes, I think the last time he pitched he saved the pen and ate some innings. What do you call pitching through the sixth when the starter leaves after the third?

 

I don't see anything that shows he can do that or that the Brewers are willing to allow him to do that.

 

Considering he just did it a couple days ago I think it pretty obvious that the Brewers are and he is.

 

I challange anyone to find another team that has a guy in their bullpen that has been on the active roster since the beginning of the season (no games missed because of injury or DL stints) and has 4IP and a 15 ERA.

How about John Axeford last season? He had an ERA of 18.20 after 4 1/3 innings. You simply do not make any decisions based on that sample size if you don't have to. Especially when you would lose the pitcher by doing so.

 

You are not going to find one because it's unwise to keep a guy on your team that can only pitch in very specific situations and can't get guys out when he does pitch in those situations.

 

It took me all of 2 seconds to find one. I know there are plenty more. It happens on a fairly regular basis. Most often when a team has to put them through waivers and don't want to lose them. Which just so happens to be the case here. There is nothing out of the ordinary about these sort of things this early in the season.

[Patrick425]

I challenge anyone to find another team that has a guy in their bullpen that has been on the active roster since the beginning of the season (no games missed because of injury or DL stints) and has 4IP and a 15 ERA.

How about John Axeford last season? He had an ERA of 18.20 after 4 1/3 innings. You simply do not make any decisions based on that sample size if you don't have to. Especially when you would lose the pitcher by doing so.

 

You are not going to find one because it's unwise to keep a guy on your team that can only pitch in very specific situations and can't get guys out when he does pitch in those situations.

 

It took me all of 2 seconds to find one. I know there are plenty more. It happens on a fairly regular basis. Most often when a team has to put them through waivers and don't want to lose them. Which just so happens to be the case here. There is nothing out of the ordinary about these sort of things this early in the season.

 

The point was not if you could find someone in the history of baseball that has a large ERA in the span of 4 (or 6) innings pitched. The point was could you find a pitcher that has only pitched 6 innings after the first 29 games of the season (while being on the active roster the entire time) with a 15 ERA who was able to keep their roster spot. I realize it's a small sample size, but that's part of my argument. I don't care what your role is or what kind of situations have presented themselves, you should have more than 6 innings pitched after 29 games if you are really contributing to the team...and hopefully better than a 15 ERA in those 6 innings.

[Thurston Fluff]

If you want people to find someone who has the exact scenario of 29 games and four innings pitched then why not just ask for a pink unicorn who pitches as well? Neither are likely to be found but the lack of it doesn't mean anything.

There are a lot of pitchers who have roles that do not come up all that often in the first month. Some of them do not do well in the few times they do get called upon. The reason he hasn't been used is the situations he is supposed to contribute in haven't come up much. When it did last Wednesday he did contribute. Three innings worth that saved at least two maybe, three other relievers from having to pitch that day. And the 15 ERA thing isn't helping your argument at all. Given his role and number of innings you would be hard pressed to find a more useless number.

[502 to Right]

I challange anyone to find another team that has a guy in their bullpen that has been on the active roster since the beginning of the season (no games missed because of injury or DL stints) and has 4IP and a 15 ERA.

How about John Axeford last season? He had an ERA of 18.20 after 4 1/3 innings. You simply do not make any decisions based on that sample size if you don't have to. Especially when you would lose the pitcher by doing so.

 

 

Please tell me you're not comparing a rookie pitcher whose only professional experience is pitching one season of minor league Rookie ball to someone who had a lengthy track record of being an excellent relief pitcher in the majors.

 

Which of these two pitchers is more likely to become a useful pitcher during the season in question?

 

It seems that the pro-Wang crowd wants to gloss over the fact that it is virtually unprecedented that a team would carry someone with this little experience on a big league roster. Pitching in major league baseball is really, really hard and usually requires a number of years in the minors even for elite prospects--(which Wang is not).

[jerichoholicninja]

I challange anyone to find another team that has a guy in their bullpen that has been on the active roster since the beginning of the season (no games missed because of injury or DL stints) and has 4IP and a 15 ERA.

How about John Axeford last season? He had an ERA of 18.20 after 4 1/3 innings. You simply do not make any decisions based on that sample size if you don't have to. Especially when you would lose the pitcher by doing so.

 

 

Please tell me you're not comparing a rookie pitcher whose only professional experience is pitching one season of minor league Rookie ball to someone who had a lengthy track record of being an excellent relief pitcher in the majors.

 

Which of these two pitchers is more likely to become a useful pitcher during the season in question?

 

It seems that the pro-Wang crowd wants to gloss over the fact that it is virtually unprecedented that a team would carry someone with this little experience on a big league roster. Pitching in major league baseball is really, really hard and usually requires a number of years in the minors even for elite prospects--(which Wang is not).

 

There are so many things I want to write but I'll just say Mike Leake and let you figure out the rest.