What do you think of our Wang? Slot Worthy?

[TheCrew07]

"Impact talent"?? Guys like Kershaw and Sale are impact talents. They were already dominating big league hitters at the age Wang is now. Wang is years from even being serviceable at the major league level if, and it's a pretty significant if, he ever gets there.

 

I reserve the right to bookmark this post and quote it every time you push for a guy who's not an impact talent, old for his league, or some retread veteran you'd like to sign.

 

I find your assignment of value to players and prospects to be completely arbitrary, there has to be some core value that I'm missing because I don't understand the basis of your philosophy. How can you continually push for guys like Halton, Rogers, Suter, and Fiers while ignoring their physical talent and age, yet beat up a legitimately talented player like Wang for his age knowing he lost development time because of where he came from and TJ surgery. How has Wang had remotely the same opportunities as the players you compared him to?

 

I've been beating on the Brewer organization for years regarding their general lack of pursuit of young impact talent but claiming Wang was exactly the type of bold move this organization needed to start building a more robust talent base. I can certainly understand the roster situation Melvin has put the big league club in but at the same time I grow weary of the "competitive teams can't afford..." type statements. Why are those true? Where is there any proof? Sure teams don't generally do certain things, but baseball also generally does a crappy job developing talent.

 

You can win now and make moves for the future at the same time, I'm not sure why people continue to post the opposite when so many teams have proven otherwise over the last 10 years. It doesn't have to be one or the other, now or the future, it can be both, and has to be both if the object is to remain competitive long-term.

 

As far as whether Wang has impact potential or not, pitchfx is struggling to classify his pitches a bit but his average FB velocity is 91.4 even with a min of 84.8 which was more than likely a change and his max is 95.5. There aren't many LHP with that kind of velocity and his FB ave is better than Estrada, Lohse, and Gallardo. Sure he doesn't have an arm like Peralta but we don't have another pitcher in the organization right now with that kind of velocity.

[Patrick425]

Well now he's basically taking up a position spot in the roster with Wooten being called up and Herrera being sent down. The guy puts up good numbers in rookie ball and people are acting like he's the next Sparky Lyle or Tug McGraw. Yes his current stats are from a small sample size. There is a reason for that..because he's not MLB ready and the Brewers don't have faith in him at this point to retire MLB hitters. He has no business pitching in the majors right now.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Last season's World Series winner, the Boston Red Sox, only had 5-6 relievers give them more than 30IP for the entire regular season. Tell me, who was that last bullpen arm on their roster that enabled them to get over the hump and win it all?

 

The 2012 Giants got 160 of 162 possible starts out of their opening day rotation, basically unheard of production from their starters. They only had 6 relievers give them 30IP+ for the regular season, too.

 

Wang has 6IP through 28 games...that equates to about 35IP for the season if he stays up all year with the team and avoids the DL. If anything he's gotten too much work as a bottom of the roster bullpen arm. Wang isn't the reason the bullpen usage for key relievers is alarming. It just looks that way without factoring in how many close and extra inning games this team has played to start the year, with very few off days sprinkled in between. Of the first 28 games, only 11 of them ended with the score being outside the "save" range of 3 runs. Many of those close games got out of hand late, when key relievers were already involved. Wang's 4 appearances all happened during non-close games. The Brewers have also played 5 extra inning games already this season - I don't see the Brewers keeping up that pace & playing 29 extra inning games for the season, as the all time record is only 31, by the 1943 Red Sox. Any bullpen would get burned out if they have to pitch 15 innings of extras each month.

 

Even with keeping Wang in Milwaukee all season, the Brewers still have flexibility with the AAA/MLB shuttle guys (Wooten, Figaro), starting pitching insurance (Fiers, Nelson, Burgos), and proven relievers working their way back from injury (Gorzelanny) to keep guys rested.

[Patrick425]

Me or you could pitch 35 innings for the Brewers this year, doesn't mean we should. The amount of innings he pitches isn't as concerning to me as how he performs pitching in those innings. If Wang can put up the same kind of numbers that the Red Sox and SF pitchers did in their WS years, then I don't have a problem with it. I don't think he can.

[HiAndTight]

I'm going to be very upset if we lose him. Shuttle guys back and forth from Nashville if need be, but for a system so lacking in impact talent, we should really find a way to keep him.

 

"Impact talent"?? Guys like Kershaw and Sale are impact talents. They were already dominating big league hitters at the age Wang is now. Wang is years from even being serviceable at the major league level if, and it's a pretty significant if, he ever gets there. Brewer talent evaluators are high on him but they were high enough on Jed Bradley to pick him in the middle of the first round and how's that working out?

 

I also don't buy the notion that Pittsburgh wouldn't be open to a trade. Who's to say the Pirates are anywhere near as high on Wang as the Brewers or that they wouldn't prefer another player that fits their needs better?

 

 

One of the most illogical posts I've ever seen.

 

A-EVERYONE was high on Bradley coming out. Going into his JR year some thought he could be a top 3-5 pick and was a near consensus top 10 prsopect in that draft.

 

B-You haven't got a CLUE how far away Wang is from being "serviceable," at the ML level.

 

C-So unless you're Clayton Kershaw, the second coming of Sandy Koufax or Sale, you're not an "impact talent?"

 

D-Nobody is to say what the Pirates opinion is as a matter of fact. So in lieu of Huntington coming out and say as much we have to go off the reports that they were upset to loose him and only left him off the roster because he was a young pitcher coming off TJ surgery. So I don't know if they're high on him or not. I certainly read they were. And I don't know if they'd be willing to trade with us for him. But I'm guessing Melvin's had a thought or two regarding this.

[HiAndTight]

A playoff contending team cannot keep a guy on the 25 man roster who can't get big league hitters out. Period. To do so is idiotic and handcuffs the manager with what is effectively a 24 man roster. You can talk about other factors that have the Brewers playing shorthanded, but Wang is at or near the top of list.

 

 

The only thing that's idiotic is that you continue to spew this nonsense. It's just not true and it's been flat out proven to you.

 

Rule 5 picks kept on Major League Rosters since 2002*(WHO MADE THE PLAYOFFS). And god knows some of these are truly poorly run organizations. Like Boston when they won their WS, or the Cards or A's.

2012 Orioles, Ryan Flaherty, INF

2011 Diamondbacks, Joe Paterson, LHP

2011 Phillies, Michael Martinez, INF

2010 Phillies, David Herndon, RHP

2005 Red Sox, Adam Stern, OF

2004 Cardinals, Hector Luna, INF

2004 Astros, Willy Taveras, OF

2004 Red Sox, Lenny DiNardo, RHP

2003 Athletics, Mike Neu, RHP

2002 Athletics, Jason Grabowski, INF

 

 

 

I'm also curious what exactly you think the worst guy on a teams BP should be? What's your expectation? Not to mention your assumption that Wang can't get guys out after 4 outings, the last of which the defense absolutely killed him starting with Herrera getting turned around on a routine FB and immediately followed up by a GB eating up Gennett that led to 3 runs.

[HiAndTight]

Look Mike Fiers just dominated today again at AAA. He deserves to be in Milwaukee earning a major league paycheck. His former teammates on the Brewers know this as well and I'm sure it doesn't sit well with them if they were honest about it. Had Fiers been around to relieve Garza today, they might come back and won that game.

Wang is a prospect. He's not the 2nd coming of Clayton Kershaw or Chris Sale however. He's a guy who has a chance to be a major league pitcher 3-4 years from now. There's also a significant chance he never makes it. To maneuver a pitching staff so you can hang on to one prospect who's that far away from the majors doesn't make sense.

 

 

You have no idea what Fiers teammates think, so you're absolutely not sure of anything. I doubt the Brewers(players that is) are watching the scouting reports or worried about a starting pitcher because he's had a really good start in AAA.

You CERTAINLY don't know(and to suggest you do is again, ridiculous) that he's 4 years away from contributing.

 

We were losing the game when Wang came into the game and we were without Braun, Aram and Segura. Not sure how Wang is at fault when he could have finished the game without allowing a runner to reach base and we still would have lost.

 

And it makes plenty of sense. He's a very talented young pitcher and it's not hurting the Brewers.

 

 

I never would have thought I'd hear such whining over the fact that our team has been soooo good that we've been able to get off to a 20-8 start and has been able to protect a promising young pitcher on our 25 man roster.

[HiAndTight]

Me or you could pitch 35 innings for the Brewers this year, doesn't mean we should. The amount of innings he pitches isn't as concerning to me as how he performs pitching in those innings. If Wang can put up the same kind of numbers that the Red Sox and SF pitchers did in their WS years, then I don't have a problem with it. I don't think he can.

 

2012 Giants

Brad Penny-6.11 ERA in 28 IP

Mota 5.23 ERA in 20 IP

 

2014 Red Sox

Allen Webster 8.43 ERA 30.1 IP

Clayton Mortensen 5.43 ERA in 30.1 IP

 

Of those 4 the youngest was 23. Mortensen was 28, Penny 34 and Mota 38.

[502 to Right]

A playoff contending team cannot keep a guy on the 25 man roster who can't get big league hitters out. Period. To do so is idiotic and handcuffs the manager with what is effectively a 24 man roster. You can talk about other factors that have the Brewers playing shorthanded, but Wang is at or near the top of list.

 

 

The only thing that's idiotic is that you continue to spew this nonsense. It's just not true and it's been flat out proven to you.

 

Rule 5 picks kept on Major League Rosters since 2002*(WHO MADE THE PLAYOFFS). And god knows some of these are truly poorly run organizations. Like Boston when they won their WS, or the Cards or A's.

2012 Orioles, Ryan Flaherty, INF

2011 Diamondbacks, Joe Paterson, LHP

2011 Phillies, Michael Martinez, INF

2010 Phillies, David Herndon, RHP

2005 Red Sox, Adam Stern, OF

2004 Cardinals, Hector Luna, INF

2004 Astros, Willy Taveras, OF

2004 Red Sox, Lenny DiNardo, RHP

2003 Athletics, Mike Neu, RHP

2002 Athletics, Jason Grabowski, INF

 

 

 

I'm also curious what exactly you think the worst guy on a teams BP should be? What's your expectation? Not to mention your assumption that Wang can't get guys out after 4 outings, the last of which the defense absolutely killed him starting with Herrera getting turned around on a routine FB and immediately followed up by a GB eating up Gennett that led to 3 runs.

 

Riddle me this Batman, how many of those Rule 5 players had just one year of minor experience? And then add the fact that Wang's minor league experience was in Rookie ball. He 100% is not qualified to be on a MLB roster. Period. The Brewers don't trust him to get anywhere near a game that is competitive. Pitchers you have zero confidence using in any meaningful game should not be on the roster.

 

And I'd bet none of those Rule 5 pitchers had an ERA of 15.00

[SRB]

Riddle me this Batman, how many of those Rule 5 players had just one year of minor experience? And then add the fact that Wang's minor league experience was in Rookie ball. He 100% is not qualified to be on a MLB roster. Period. The Brewers don't trust him to get anywhere near a game that is competitive. Pitchers you have zero confidence using in any meaningful game should not be on the roster.

 

And I'd bet none of those Rule 5 pitchers had an ERA of 15.00

 

A guy with enough talent and 0 days minor league experience will be more "qualified" than a guy with 10 years of minor league experience and mediocre talent. I'm not saying Wang is Stephen Strasburg, but the fact that he is still on the roster proves that the Brewers front office and Brewers talent evaluators think he is either valuable enough to keep on the roster and/or stash for the rest of the season. So really there is no arguing with the basic fact that all of us here on this board do not have the same level of expertise or access to dispute that judgment.

[502 to Right]

Riddle me this Batman, how many of those Rule 5 players had just one year of minor experience? And then add the fact that Wang's minor league experience was in Rookie ball. He 100% is not qualified to be on a MLB roster. Period. The Brewers don't trust him to get anywhere near a game that is competitive. Pitchers you have zero confidence using in any meaningful game should not be on the roster.

 

And I'd bet none of those Rule 5 pitchers had an ERA of 15.00

 

A guy with enough talent and 0 days minor league experience will be more "qualified" than a guy with 10 years of minor league experience and mediocre talent. I'm not saying Wang is Stephen Strasburg, but the fact that he is still on the roster proves that the Brewers front office and Brewers talent evaluators think he is either valuable enough to keep on the roster and/or stash for the rest of the season. So really there is no arguing with the basic fact that all of us here on this board do not have the same level of expertise or access to dispute that judgment.

 

 

And I could cite to you all of the teams that passed on Wang in the Rule 5 draft because they decided it wasn't worth the time and money to put a guy with one year in the minors playing Rookie ball on their 25 man roster. Including the Chicago Cubs who are going to suck this year, need pitching, and are run by two of the brightest minds in baseball in Theo Epstein and Jed Hoyer. Even to the Cubs, Wang wasn't worth it.

[Patrick425]

Me or you could pitch 35 innings for the Brewers this year, doesn't mean we should. The amount of innings he pitches isn't as concerning to me as how he performs pitching in those innings. If Wang can put up the same kind of numbers that the Red Sox and SF pitchers did in their WS years, then I don't have a problem with it. I don't think he can.

 

2012 Giants

Brad Penny-6.11 ERA in 28 IP

Mota 5.23 ERA in 20 IP

 

2014 Red Sox

Allen Webster 8.43 ERA 30.1 IP

Clayton Mortensen 5.43 ERA in 30.1 IP

 

Of those 4 the youngest was 23. Mortensen was 28, Penny 34 and Mota 38.

 

Penny, had 22 appearances and gave up 3 or more runs in 3 of those appearances

Mota 26 appearances 2 with 3 or more runs

Webster was a starter that was bounced up and down between the Majors and Minors

Mortenson had 24 appearances, 2 with 3 or more runs and was DFA'ed in June

 

Wang has 4 appearances so far and has given up 3 or more runs in half of them.

 

Penny and Mota had extensive MLB experience (in fact it was the last year for each of them). Mortenson also had MLB experience and Webster had had 6 years of minor league experience working his way up from R ball to AAA ball.

 

When Wang pitches the Brewers are basically handing the ball to an A ball player, at best, and letting him go out and face MLB hitters. Comparing Wang to the 4 pitchers mentioned above is comparing apples and oranges. Completely different situations and circumstances.

[sveumrules]

Good thing we called up a legitimate MLB pitcher like Rob Wooten so he was available to pitch in a tight spot like that, things could've gotten out of hand in a hurry there.

[Patrick425]

Good thing we called up a legitimate MLB pitcher like Rob Wooten so he was available to pitch in a tight spot like that, things could've gotten out of hand in a hurry there.

 

The good thing about him is we can send him back to the minors if he's not getting the job done.

 

Also - none of those runs that scored where credited to Wooten.

[SoupTown]

duplicate post from the game thread, but worth me posting twice: obviously Henderson being in the bullpen will tax the team entirely and cause our demise; we should cut him, or better yet, offer him to the Pirates; as that is the correct response to every bullpen quandary... offer the causer of the quandary to the Pirates

[SRB]

And I could cite to you all of the teams that passed on Wang in the Rule 5 draft because they decided it wasn't worth the time and money to put a guy with one year in the minors playing Rookie ball on their 25 man roster. Including the Chicago Cubs who are going to suck this year, need pitching, and are run by two of the brightest minds in baseball in Theo Epstein and Jed Hoyer. Even to the Cubs, Wang wasn't worth it.

 

I will inform the Angels that Mike Trout is not a good player because 24 other teams decided it was not worth spending a first round pick on him.

[Outlander]

Since the Cubs were mentioned I'm pretty confident the Cubs will claim Wang if he goes through waivers, the Pirates are not getting this guy back.

[Patrick425]

duplicate post from the game thread, but worth me posting twice: obviously Henderson being in the bullpen will tax the team entirely and cause our demise; we should cut him, or better yet, offer him to the Pirates; as that is the correct response to every bullpen quandary... offer the causer of the quandary to the Pirates

 

 

I think Henderson has done a little more in his career to warrant some patience. Up through and including yesterday's performance he has a 3.44 career ERA and 1.23 whip. He also has pitched in 314 minor league games. He has demonstrated that he is capable of pitching at the major league level, Wang has done nothing but show that he can pitch at the rookie league level.

[TooLiveBrew]

Since the Cubs were mentioned I'm pretty confident the Cubs will claim Wang if he goes through waivers, the Pirates are not getting this guy back.

The process is that the Crew would have to offer Wang back to the Bucs (PIT would have to pay a small fee to get him back). I'm not sure what the process is if the Bucs turn down the player, but the Brewers don't simply pass Wang through waivers first. If the Pirates turn down taking Wang back, then I'm guessing he's just Brewers property, complete with all three of his option seasons (so he wouldn't need to be exposed to waivers) -- but that's just a guess.

[logan82]

Per Cot's

 

Rule 5 Draft

The Rule 5 draft is held each December at the Winter Meetings, and it consists of a Major League portion and a minor league portion. By November 20, each club must set its 40-man roster and submit reserve lists for all major and minor-league levels (See Minor League Rosters). Between November 20 and the Rule 5 draft, a club may add Major League free agents to its 40-man roster but may not add any player from its minor league reserve lists.

 

After 4 or 5 years as a professional, a player must be added to his club’s 40-man roster or exposed to the 29 other clubs in the Rule 5 draft. (Under the new CBA, a club has 5 years to evaluate a player who signs his first pro contract at 18 years old or younger, but only 4 years to decide on a player who signs at age 19.) For purposes of calculating years as a pro, counting begins the day a player signs his first pro contract, not the season he begins play.

 

Clubs draft in reverse order of their won-loss records in the previous season, and only clubs with less than 40 players on their rosters may take part. To select an eligible player, a drafting club pays $50,000 to the player’s original club. The drafting club must keep the player on its 25-man active roster for all of the next season or put him on waivers. If a third club claims the player on waivers, the third club also must keep him in the majors all season. If the player clears waivers, he must be offered back to his original club for $25,000. A drafting club may work out a trade with the player’s original club so that the drafting club can keep him and send him to the minor leagues.

 

If, because of injury, a player selected in the Rule 5 draft spends less than 90 days on the active Major League roster, he also must remain on the Major League roster the next season until he earns 90 days of service. Otherwise, he must be put on waivers and offered back to his original club.

 

The Rule 5 draft also includes two minor-league phases. In the AAA phase, a player not protected on his club’s 40-man roster or 38-man AAA reserve list may be selected for $12,000. In the AA phase, a player not protected on his club’s 40-man roster, 38-man AAA reserve list or 37-man AA reserve list may be selected for $4,000. A player selected in the minor-league phase of the Rule 5 draft is not required to play the next season with his drafting club at the higher organizational level.

 

[trwi7]

but the Brewers don't simply pass Wang through waivers first.

 

Yes they do. He goes through waivers. If he's not claimed then he's offered back to the Pirates for $25,000. If the Pirates don't want him back (which seems highly unlikely to me) then the Brewers could send him to the minors. But every team would have to pass on him, not just the Pirates and since he's so young and appears to have a pretty good ceiling, you would think at least one rebuilding team would bite the bullet for a year and keep him on their roster.

[logan82]

Since this is also applicable since some people think we can just send him to the DL.

Again, Per Cot's

 

Disabled List

A club may place an injured player on the seven- or 15- or 60-day disabled list by submitting to the commissioner’s office an application, accompanied by a diagnosis from the club physician. A player on either list continues to accumulate Major League service time, but he must remain inactive for a minimum of seven, 15 or 60 days, with Day 1 beginning after the player’s last game appearance. A club may make the placement of a player on either list retroactive to the last date on which he played, up to a maximum backdating of 10 days. A club may send a player on the DL to the minor leagues for a rehab assignment lasting a maximum of 20 days for position players and 30 days for pitchers.

[SoupTown]

Maybe this upcoming Wednesday, Wang wants to expand his dance moves.

 

[TooLiveBrew]

but the Brewers don't simply pass Wang through waivers first.

 

Yes they do. He goes through waivers. If he's not claimed then he's offered back to the Pirates for $25,000. If the Pirates don't want him back (which seems highly unlikely to me) then the Brewers could send him to the minors. But every team would have to pass on him, not just the Pirates and since he's so young and appears to have a pretty good ceiling, you would think at least one rebuilding team would bite the bullet for a year and keep him on their roster.

Gah. I (incorrectly) remembered that it was established earlier in this thread that he was offered back to the original club first!

 

Apologies to Outlander... and I think I'll once again give up on trying to understand all of MLB's roster transaction rules.

[ewitkows]

Since this is also applicable since some people think we can just send him to the DL.

Again, Per Cot's

 

Disabled List

A club may place an injured player on the seven- or 15- or 60-day disabled list by submitting to the commissioner’s office an application, accompanied by a diagnosis from the club physician. A player on either list continues to accumulate Major League service time, but he must remain inactive for a minimum of seven, 15 or 60 days, with Day 1 beginning after the player’s last game appearance. A club may make the placement of a player on either list retroactive to the last date on which he played, up to a maximum backdating of 10 days. A club may send a player on the DL to the minor leagues for a rehab assignment lasting a maximum of 20 days for position players and 30 days for pitchers.

DL him in July, give him 2-3 weeks off, Send him to AA for 30 days(aug) , bring him back up Sept 1 to basically sit/pitch blow outs