What do you think of our Wang? Slot Worthy?

[ewitkows]

We really only have to carry him for 60 more days and then they can make up an injury and DL him the rest of the season. We are already a 3rd of the way there , no sense in giving him back now

[crossface21]

If the Brewers are under .500 or even at .500, I don't think it's an issue to send another guy down and keep Wang. However, The Crew is 20-8, in 1st place, and the bullpen has been absolutely rock solid AND is going to be severely overworked come July if they continue going basically with a 6 man bullpen and keep playing these tight games. The bullpen is a big reason they are 20-8 and I would hate to see what could be a great season go south late in the season because all of the relievers have 70+ appearances and are worn down. It would nice to have a couple 7 or 8 run games(winning or losing for that matter) where Wang could be used to spell the guys a bit. These constant tight games are really going to hurt the bullpen in the long run if they don't get a fresh arm.

 

I'm more for playing for this year when it looks like they have a legitimate chance to make a run rather than holding onto a guy for what he might be able to do in 2-4 years

[brewmann04]

could they use him just to face lefties?

[SoupTown]

Any 'can't keep Wang' logic is always based on the conjecture that in three months our top six guys will be overworked

 

The key word here is CONJECTURE

[lcbj68c]

Any 'can't keep Wang' logic is always based on the conjecture that in three months our top six guys will be overworked

 

The key word here is CONJECTURE

 

That is one of the myths... except that facts show they HAVEN'T been overworked and are well under average compared to other MLB bullpens.

[danzig6767]

We really only have to carry him for 60 more days and then they can make up an injury and DL him the rest of the season. We are already a 3rd of the way there , no sense in giving him back now

I heard Hardricourt on the radio the other day and i believe it was Drew Olsen who brought up a scenario like that. Hardricourt responded by saying that the league likely would look very closely at medical validity of any supposed injury to Wang to be sure it really was legit so as to not allow teams to easily circumvent the Rule 5 provision of forcing teams to keep those players on a big league roster all season.

 

I won't claim to know just how correct Hardricourt was on this point, but it would seem to make sense to me that MLB wouldn't want to allow teams to select young Rule 5 prospects and then easily stash those guys on a long term DL stint with dubious injuries because then it could become commonplace.

[adambr2]

Well, we could always have him hang out in the dugout and walk behind Braun if we really need to seal the deal.

[adambr2]

I don't think the argument is that Wang has cost the Brewers wins so far. Instead, the problem is the fear of using him in any non-blowout is forcing other relief pitches to tack on extra appearances.

 

That can be ok over 30 games, but over a full 162 game season if the Brewers remain in playoff contention, it becomes more problematic. This is precisely why really young Rule 5 pitchers don't often stick with teams over a full season, especially on good teams compared to bad teams with no playoff aspirations.

 

Except that going into today, the Brewers relievers were 26th of 30 in innings pitched and appearances. There has been no wear and tear or extra appearances out of them. The 7th reliever on 22 of the 30 teams have less appearances/innings than Wang. Wang being the 7th reliever has zero effect on the team or its capability to win. He ate innings today just the same as anybody else's 7th reliever. Releasing Wang to put Figaro in the same role adds zero wins. Since it's not affecting our ability to contend, why not keep the "piece"?

 

Except it's not that simple. Look at the individuals, not just the total IP of the pen. It's obviously a bit skewed when 1 guy has pitched just 3 times.

 

K-Rod has logged more innings than any other National League reliever, he's at the top with 16. He's also at the top in appearances. K-Rod, Thornburg, and Will Smith are all in the top 6 in the NL in appearances. It's not just innings pitched -- you're putting a guy in a game, even for a hitter, you're getting him hot, sending him in, and adding mileage to the arm. Even just looking at innings pitched -- K-Rod is 1st in the NL, Thornburg is 7th, and Smith and Duke are both tied for 25th. Given that there's roughly 105 relievers in the NL active at any time, our top 4 are all in the top 25% in IP. Our top 3 are roughly in the top 5% for appearances.

 

K-Rod is on pace to pitch 96 innings, and he hasn't thrown more than 73 since 2004. He can't keep up this pace. If you want to argue that April was an aberration and that we'll have less save situations going forward, that's fine, but just looking at the team IP and saying guys haven't been overworked isn't looking at all the evidence.

[DHonks]

I like what I see from Wang. 94-96 mph lefties don't grow on trees. I'd rather try to get Weeks agree to being optioned to AAA to play every day.

[gregmag]

How does Wang's situation impact Rodriguez? He's the closer. His line would look exactly the same if we had someone else in Wang's place. To a lesser extent, the same thing is true of our other guys. We've had a lot of high-leverage innings en route to 20 wins. Those innings aren't going to the guy at the back of the pen, whoever he is.

[SRB]

K-Rod is on pace to pitch 96 innings, and he hasn't thrown more than 73 since 2004. He can't keep up this pace. If you want to argue that April was an aberration and that we'll have less save situations going forward, that's fine, but just looking at the team IP and saying guys haven't been overworked isn't looking at all the evidence.

 

Innings aren't everything either. K-Rod is only #12 in total pitches, Will Smith is #26, Thornburg is #46, and Duke is #71.

 

I also see no reason to think that K-Rod is incapable of throwing 96 innings. Relievers generally don't throw that many simply because they don't have an opportunity to. Last season Anthony Swarzak threw 96.0 IP for the Twins (all in relief) and was pretty good (2.91 ERA, 3.28 FIP). In 2011, Jonny Venters appeared in 85 G for the Braves (88.0 IP) and was lights-out: 1.84 ERA, 2.78 FIP.

 

Obviously, we likely are not going to win >120 games, so that is likely not going to be an issue, but even if it was I don't see how it is a concern whatsoever.

 

Besides, best to ride him while he's hot. If his arm falls off just use Henderson as the closer again (or Thornburg, or Smith, etc.)

[SoupTown]

I suggest we just go 20-8 again in May. We pretty much do as we have been doing. Then we reassess the situation on June 1. We will be 40-16 at that stage. And it may be that we will need to start resting the best throwers from the bullpen (hmmmm, six of them). So, I think we then can have a few piggy back games or simply call up the Nashville shuttle and have guys like Figaro, Wooten, Hand, Fiers just pitch three innings every third day. That will likely cost us 3 or 4 games over June, so we will only go 16-12

 

But at the end of June we then have our rested bullpen and we are then 56-28. Now July is not a big problem with the all star break, so we can go back into full on mode, and until early August we go another 20-8. Now we are 76-36 early August.

 

Of course, we need to rest the six bullpen guys again, so we go back with the Figaro, Wooten, Hand, Fiers every third day rotation. I guess we lose a couple games we should not have lost, so entering September we are, after having had a 12-8 stretch, 88 and 44.

 

September we can expand rosters of course, and I think we really need to keep our six bull pen aces... and even our rotation a little rested. So we can go about half the month with our AAA guys - even for starting. So, let us say we go .500 in September. Add that 15-15 to our record, and we finish off the year 103-59.

 

Now, this is all tongue in cheek, because some posters here think we need to protect against being so, so good, that we need to keep ourselves from winning 120 games, because we will be tired come the playoffs. So, since we are THAT good, I simply offer up a way to cut back to only 103 wins - and be rested in October.

 

Now, in the possible (but unlikely) event we are NOT a 120 win team, there will be times it does not matter if Wang or Maldanado finish off a game. Just like today. Bad luck we coughed up a 3-1 lead and our starter got injured. But it gave our bullpen an off day, pretty much. And no bullpen in the world is going to throw up MINUS 2 runs. So once we were behind 4-3, and scoring no more runs, meant it did not matter WHO pitched. The fact that Wang got in 3 innings and 70 pitches is actually good. He does not hurt us throwing once a week in a game we are going to lose. I am happy Ron had him throw. And I am happy he is learning that the middle of the plate is not a good location to throw MLB hitters. I am sure throwing 96 mph, with a curve and a really good change and not walking people will play well in A ball. But not good in MLB if you make too many mistakes.

 

Honestly, let the kid pitch his once a week. Let him give up 1 or 1.5 runs an inning for three innings in a dead game. Let him learn. He is only going to get better. Why you punt that away. Well, you don't.

[patrickgpe]

the brewers can contend for the division. I think it is insane to keep a player who cannot contribute to the roster. The brewers are working on a 24 man roster. The pen will not be able to hold up for a full season.

 

I agree that Wang hasn't cost us a win yet, but how long can this last. RR has to use his pen differently because he has one less guy than every other team.

[TooLiveBrew]

I just don't buy that Wang is un-useable. Imo he can absolutely fill in as a true LOOGY & free up Roenicke from using Smith in those kinds of scenarios.

 

This is down to Roenicke preferring veterans over Wang. Not down to Wang's ability imo. Should he be brought in to work the 7th or 8th inning in a regular-ish sense? No. But can he come in & get out the Justin Morneaus of the world... I think the answer is yes.

[MillerParkSouth]

Great post SoupTown. This is largely a function of us being so darn good in April. Once we start losing a bit (and it'll happen), things will settle down.

[sveumrules]

the brewers can contend for the division. I think it is insane to keep a player who cannot contribute to the roster. The brewers are working on a 24 man roster. The pen will not be able to hold up for a full season.

 

I agree that Wang hasn't cost us a win yet, but how long can this last. RR has to use his pen differently because he has one less guy than every other team.

 

No team has a roster with 25 players, all of whom contribute to the team's success. No team's bullpen has 7 relievers, all of whom are trusted to pitch in close games. RR is using his pen no differently than any other manager would given the number of tight games we've been involved in.

[JohnBriggs12]

I'm going to be very upset if we lose him. Shuttle guys back and forth from Nashville if need be, but for a system so lacking in impact talent, we should really find a way to keep him.

 

"Impact talent"?? Guys like Kershaw and Sale are impact talents. They were already dominating big league hitters at the age Wang is now. Wang is years from even being serviceable at the major league level if, and it's a pretty significant if, he ever gets there. Brewer talent evaluators are high on him but they were high enough on Jed Bradley to pick him in the middle of the first round and how's that working out?

 

I also don't buy the notion that Pittsburgh wouldn't be open to a trade. Who's to say the Pirates are anywhere near as high on Wang as the Brewers or that they wouldn't prefer another player that fits their needs better?

[MillerParkSouth]

There is a wide gap between guys like Kershaw and guys like Bradley, many of whom are quite good. You can never have too much pitching.

[JohnBriggs12]

There is a wide gap between guys like Kershaw and guys like Bradley, many of whom are quite good. You can never have too much pitching.

 

Wang is a prospect and it would be nice if he were toiling at Appleton right now. But he can't get major league hitters out and he needs plenty of seasoning in the minor leagues, and so the experiment should end. The Brewers took a flier that he could be someone special. I get that. But he's clearly not and in the role he's in, its doing more damage to his future than anything else. If he survived this year on the roster, I think you'd have a kid who'd need longer development time to overcome the scars from this lost season in his development.

[502 to Right]

A playoff contending team cannot keep a guy on the 25 man roster who can't get big league hitters out. Period. To do so is idiotic and handcuffs the manager with what is effectively a 24 man roster. You can talk about other factors that have the Brewers playing shorthanded, but Wang is at or near the top of list.

[Jenkins5]

I love what Wang offers as a prospect however as of now he is just that....a prospect. Maybe we could talk Pirates into a head up Weeks for Wang trade and solve two issues for us while giving us 2 rosters spots for Fiers, Figuro, Hand, Wooten or another long arm and a utility guy.

 

While he has great stuff and is projectable, the fact is he is raw, doesn't know how to really pitch yet, and being on a winning/contending team...he doesn't have the time to learn. This isn't the Enrique Cruz days were we are terrible and can afford to keep anyone who is just a body on the roster. I'm torn on what to do with him because I like him as a prospect but don't feel he is ready enough to contribute at the MLB or contending team level. I guess DM has to decide if the juice is worth the squeeze on the ceiling of Wang. I believe if we stay healthy with the bats (Think we have enough quality arms we could still compete with Nelson, Fiers, etc) we really can contend.... Do we focus on having best 25 man roster possible or do we risk making a move to help the future?

[Fear The Chorizo]

Wang is essentially taking Figaro's or Wooten's roster spot in Milwaukee right now. Fiers has been fantastic at AAA, but he needs to stay there unless starting pitcher injuries force Melvin to begin calling up starters. To me, I think he's more valuable to the organization as starting pitcher insurance and/or deadline trade bait to acquire corner IF/bench help.

 

Is the current dropoff between Wang and Figaro/Wooten big in terms of who the better MLB pitcher is? Right now, absolutely - both Figaro and Wooten are much better MLB pitchers currently. However, the actual impact of W/L between keeping Wang on the MLB roster or replacing him with Figaro/Wooten is probably negligible. If Wang continues to get some innings every week while getting work in during side sessions, and RR does a good job at managing the rest of the pen, it's not the end of the world.

 

The Brewers aren't going to sustain 20-8 performance all season long. Other pitching staff decisions will need to be made once Gorzelanny's healthy, dealing with other likely injuries that every roster goes through, and optimistically when Nelson has nothing left to prove in AAA.

 

At 20-8, there's no reason right now for Brewers management to just throw their hands up and send Wang back to the Pirates. Getting the position player portion of the roster sorted out so they actually have a bench that's available to play is much more important, IMO.

[Patrick425]

A playoff contending team cannot keep a guy on the 25 man roster who can't get big league hitters out. Period. To do so is idiotic and handcuffs the manager with what is effectively a 24 man roster. You can talk about other factors that have the Brewers playing shorthanded, but Wang is at or near the top of list.

 

Ditto. If you are seriously planning to contend this year, then I don't see how you can eat up a valuable roster spot with a guy that basically throws batting practice every time he is called upon to pitch.

[TooLiveBrew]

A playoff contending team cannot keep a guy on the 25 man roster who can't get big league hitters out. Period. To do so is idiotic and handcuffs the manager with what is effectively a 24 man roster. You can talk about other factors that have the Brewers playing shorthanded, but Wang is at or near the top of list.

 

Ditto. If you are seriously planning to contend this year, then I don't see how you can eat up a valuable roster spot with a guy that basically throws batting practice every time he is called upon to pitch.

He's had four outings so far, and looked good & put up a 0 in two of those outings. In the role he should be filling, I just don't see what the uproar is about. If RR would wise up & use Wang as a second LOOGY & then mop-up guy, he wouldn't hurt the club. For example, Duke could've been turned to to go two or three innings yesterday & Kintzler could be used for multiple innings if needed at some point as well; there's really no reason Wang has to be relied upon to go multiple innings in a close game. I don't believe Wooten or Figaro are better enough than Wang to get concerned about.

[logan82]

A playoff contending team cannot keep a guy on the 25 man roster who can't get big league hitters out. Period. To do so is idiotic and handcuffs the manager with what is effectively a 24 man roster. You can talk about other factors that have the Brewers playing shorthanded, but Wang is at or near the top of list.

 

Ditto. If you are seriously planning to contend this year, then I don't see how you can eat up a valuable roster spot with a guy that basically throws batting practice every time he is called upon to pitch.

He's had four outings so far, and looked good & put up a 0 in two of those outings. In the role he should be filling, I just don't see what the uproar is about. If RR would wise up & use Wang as a second LOOGY & then mop-up guy, he wouldn't hurt the club. For example, Duke could've been turned to to go two or three innings yesterday & Kintzler could be used for multiple innings if needed at some point as well; there's really no reason Wang has to be relied upon to go multiple innings in a close game. I don't believe Wooten or Figaro are better enough than Wang to get concerned about.

I don't understand the uproar either. Many times last year our last guy in the pen go a week or longer without even pitching. Keeping him around doesn't hurt us and may help in the future.