What do you think of our Wang? Slot Worthy?

[And That]

This is many months from now but I don't recall playoff teams with a rule 5 guy. Does Wang have to be on the playoff roster or be offered back to the Pirates?

 

That's an interesting question that I didn't see an answer to. I would assume yes, but I'd also assume the Brewers would tell Wang to kick a wall or something so he could break a toe and go on the DL.

[502 to Right]

I think the Brewers should have him throw a 250 pitch simulated game. That should be good for shoulder tendinitis and a trip to the 60 day DL.

[SRB]

I think the Brewers should have him throw a 250 pitch simulated game. That should be good for shoulder tendinitis and a trip to the 60 day DL.

 

Could always just have him walk behind Braun on the dugout steps.

[HiAndTight]

I think some people just HAVE to have some things to complain about. Almost everything has gone perfectly. I guess it's a good thing that the biggest thing that some people are getting themselves all worked up about is the usage of a 21 year old rule 5 draftee.

It's not the usage, it's the lack of usage that has led to the over-usage of other guys and Ron's reasoning for it. Ron won't use him because he doesn't want to hurt his confidence. What a load of crap. Wang faced Major Leaguers in spring, he was a professional is Taiwan, he knows he's not ready and is only on the roster due to a technicality. If his confidence wasn't destroyed after his outing in Pittsburgh, nothing will. The pitcher always has the advantage over the hitter because hitting is hard. Having Wang face a bad lefty hitter or two, regardless of the score, is rarely going to affect the outcome of a game.

 

 

You realize that's the exact same thing, right? His usage as in how much he's used.

 

And he's not overworking our pen. Our pen ranks 23rd in the league in innings pitched, even if with some of the guys who've made more appearances, they've have very low stress innings(ie, very few pitches thrown).

 

So our bullpen ranks 23rd in innings pitched.

It ranks 4th in MLB in BP ERA(would be 1st if not for Wang's 2 outings).

We're 18-6 so we've relied on our best relievers FAR more in the first 24 games than we will over the normal course of events.

 

But you're worked up over the usage(I'm sorry, lack of usage because the two are apparently different) of our rule 5 draft pick who simply hasn't gotten much of a chance as of yet because our team has been TOO good.

 

Tell me if I'm missing anything or if this sums it up?

 

 

If we get to August and he's pitched 6 innings, then I'll agree with you there is a problem. Until then, I'm not going to complain because things are going too good and we can't get our last reliever into enough games this early on.

[HiAndTight]

Johan Santana put up a 6.49 ERA in his Rule 5 season. He was a disaster. The Twins could afford the disaster because they weren't going to make the playoffs anyway.

 

I'm not saying Wang won't be a good pitcher someday. He might. But it's not going to be a good pitcher for the Brewers at the MLB level this season.

 

 

Who cares? He doesn't NEED to be a good pitcher for the Brewers this season. Do you even realize how absurd the argument you're making is? You're essentially saying that if the Twins would have been good in 2000 they should have dumped him because they were going to be competitive. Never mind the fact that he was the best pitcher in baseball for about 5-6 years and was absolutely dominant.

 

Why does this have to be an either or? Why can't we try and be competitive this year AND try and keep a promising young arm for the future?

 

 

Yes, he does need to be a good pitcher. Playoff contending teams don't intentionally assemble a roster with a terrible/untrustworthy pitcher. You need every quality arm you can get.

 

And yes, I am saying that if the Twins had been competitive in 2000 they would not have have kept Santana and his 6.49 ERA around.

 

It is absurd to use part of a playoff contending roster as a developmental squad.

 

 

Well, again you're wrong. These are playoff teams since 2000 that have kept rule 5 players on their roster the entire season.

 

 

2012 Orioles, Ryan Flaherty, INF

2011 Diamondbacks, Joe Paterson, LHP

2011 Phillies, Michael Martinez, INF

2010 Phillies, David Herndon, RHP

2005 Red Sox, Adam Stern, OF

2004 Cardinals, Hector Luna, INF

2004 Astros, Willy Taveras, OF

2004 Red Sox, Lenny DiNardo, RHP

2003 Athletics, Mike Neu, RHP

2002 Athletics, Jason Grabowski, INF

 

 

 

And you trying to argue in hindsight...even with the benefit of knowing that Johan Santana was the best pitcher in baseball for a 5-6 year period that the Twins shouldn't have kept him on their 25 man roster.

 

Of course I asked if you honestly believed the Twins SHOULD have kept Santana on their roster, not WOULD they have if they were competitive as that's just pure conjecture.

 

In any event, all the evidence is pointing to you being 100 percent wrong on this.

[SRB]

And he's not overworking our pen. Our pen ranks 23rd in the league in innings pitched, even if with some of the guys who've made more appearances, they've have very low stress innings(ie, very few pitches thrown).

 

So our bullpen ranks 23rd in innings pitched.

It ranks 4th in MLB in BP ERA(would be 1st if not for Wang's 2 outings).

We're 18-6 so we've relied on our best relievers FAR more in the first 24 games than we will over the normal course of events.

 

But you're worked up over the usage(I'm sorry, lack of usage because the two are apparently different) of our rule 5 draft pick who simply hasn't gotten much of a chance as of yet because our team has been TOO good.

 

To add to this, the Brewers bullpen doesn't have a single pitcher in the top 30 RP for pitches thrown. The highest ranked Brewer is K-Rod, at #33, and the only other Brewer in the top 75 is Will Smith (#49). (Not sure if the leader board has been updated with tonight's stats yet, but either way the bullpen is far from overworked despite an incredible month that has led to heavy reliance on our set-up/closer combo).

[HiAndTight]

And he's not overworking our pen. Our pen ranks 23rd in the league in innings pitched, even if with some of the guys who've made more appearances, they've have very low stress innings(ie, very few pitches thrown).

 

So our bullpen ranks 23rd in innings pitched.

It ranks 4th in MLB in BP ERA(would be 1st if not for Wang's 2 outings).

We're 18-6 so we've relied on our best relievers FAR more in the first 24 games than we will over the normal course of events.

 

But you're worked up over the usage(I'm sorry, lack of usage because the two are apparently different) of our rule 5 draft pick who simply hasn't gotten much of a chance as of yet because our team has been TOO good.

 

To add to this, the Brewers bullpen doesn't have a single pitcher in the top 30 RP for pitches thrown. The highest ranked Brewer is K-Rod, at #33, and the only other Brewer in the top 75 is Will Smith (#49). (Not sure if the leader board has been updated with tonight's stats yet, but either way the bullpen is far from overworked despite an incredible month that has led to heavy reliance on our set-up/closer combo).

 

Exactly. And this is something we should be THRILLED about rather than just trying our best to find the downside to it.

 

 

"Luckily," for some on here, the Brewers will go through stretches where they won't need to throw K-rod, Smith and Thornburg as much. And Kintzler is back from the DL(which had nothing to do with his usage...over or under) as he only pitched back to back one day, made 5 appearances over the first 9 days, only once was used on back to back days, two of which he threw 7 and 3 pitches and threw 74 in total. That was just a case of having a tired arm coming out of ST'ing.

 

One more quick thing, we'd almost certainly be 27th in innings pitched by our relievers had the teams below us had played 24 games. A couple are at 21, 22 and are 2/3rd or 1 inning behind us.

[SoupTown]

When you think it out - removing names - we have six guys that are relieving so well you simply could project any mix over 7/8/9. I guess Frankie throwing in 8 of the last 10 games is pushing it. But that sure has nothing to do with Wang.

 

I can be as negative as the next guy, but there are no negatives you can even conjur up

[502 to Right]

These are playoff teams since 2000 that have kept rule 5 players on their roster the entire season.

 

 

2012 Orioles, Ryan Flaherty, INF

2011 Diamondbacks, Joe Paterson, LHP

2011 Phillies, Michael Martinez, INF

2010 Phillies, David Herndon, RHP

2005 Red Sox, Adam Stern, OF

2004 Cardinals, Hector Luna, INF

2004 Astros, Willy Taveras, OF

2004 Red Sox, Lenny DiNardo, RHP

2003 Athletics, Mike Neu, RHP

2002 Athletics, Jason Grabowski, INF

 

 

How many of those players had just one year of minor league experience before they played a full season in the majors? The answer is none. Wang simply is not ready to play MLB baseball right now.

 

If the Brewers are going to have him on the roster they at least need to play him. And see what happens. My guess is that he gets shelled mercilessly.

 

 

Edit - I don't have time to research it but I'd bet most of those guys above spent considerable time on their respective team's DL during the Rule 5 year. If Wang could hit the DL for most of the year I'd be fine with it. I don't mind him taking a spot on the 40 man roster, I just don't want him on the 25 man roster.

[SoupTown]

"Wang simply is not ready to play MLB baseball right now. If the Brewers are going to have him on the roster they at least need to play him. And see what happens. My guess is that he gets shelled mercilessly."

 

He was pretty lucky then in 2 out of his 3 appearances. One fastball today on Gameday was 97 mph. I wonder if the baseball knows it is being thrown by a 'rookie'. Hence the baseball becomes more hittable - knowing it should be hit, because the thrower has not done his proper amount of 'time' in the minors.

 

Once again. There are NO NEGATIVES (or they are trivial) compared to the POSITIVES that project to outcome with Wang being 'hidden' as the last man - mop up man - on the roster.

 

Just because other posters keep posting the contrived negatives - and ignore all evidence put to them to their contrary - does not make it the negatives to be true.

 

Did you watch the video of the bullpen dancing on the Wednesday? And did you read Wang's FAMILY commenting how great it all is, and the Brewers are, and the Brewers bullpen is?

 

I am almost happy to see the Crew down 4-0 so Wang could pitch. We used two bullpen guys today. One had not pitched for ages. One is the mop up guy. The other 5 guys had a day off. And I think we only used Smith and Frankie yesterday. Is that right. So with our starters going deep, our entire bullpen pitching lights out, a couple guys in AAA we can call on any time... AND with Wang proving (at least 66% of the time) he can mop up.... WHERE IS THE NEGATIVE.

 

Now one may be able to conjur up an entire set of circumstances that will prove the outcome of hiding Wang is bad.

 

Just like you can say we can be in trouble platooning 1st and 2nd. Because maybe one day Braun will hit Segura in the face with a bat, then Braun will strain a chest muscle and not be able to play and maybe even at the same time Maldonado will puch some other player from the other team and be suspended.... and and and.

 

Of course any horror scenario can be constructed to back up any silly comment. But, aside from the remotely possible horror scenarios - as it stands - right now - the projected, possible positives of keeping WANG far, far, far, far outweigh any projected, possible negatives.

[adambr2]

Just out of curiosity, at what time does Wang 'project' to be major league ready? 2016, 2017? Where would he most likely wind up next season, Huntsville?

[502 to Right]

Just out of curiosity, at what time does Wang 'project' to be major league ready? 2016, 2017? Where would he most likely wind up next season, Huntsville?

 

I would guess if he got through this season he'd be somewhere in A ball next year learning his craft.

[jjkoestler]

It is safe to assume Wang will spend this season in the majors and the next 2 seasons in the minors? If so, how does that affect his service time?

[1992casey]

It might be another story three or four weeks from now, but at this point, it's too early to get flipped out. In an interview a few days ago, Roenicke said that Wang was the long man. Obviously, we haven't seen long man situations. As far as his development, there's still plenty of time to get him his requisite innings.

 

If the bullpen is suffering from any degree of overwork, it would seem to be because the Brewers are frequently using the combination of pitchers that they'd use in games where they're ahead. Maybe they need some relief from that, but it's probably a good problem to have.

[Outlander]

It is safe to assume Wang will spend this season in the majors and the next 2 seasons in the minors? If so, how does that affect his service time?

I would guess three years in the minors as he has all his options.

[SoupTown]

Must he be kept on the 40 man after this year?

 

Usually you have three years off the 40 man, then three years 'on it' using up your three options.

 

Last year, I guess was Wang's first year of the off 40 man.

 

Actually, I answer my own question as I type. The Brewers got him since he was NOT on the 40 man. So, they best keep him on it, or he will be pilfered again this December. Wouldn't that be awful for the kid... then two years of treading water. One is OK, but the 2nd would certainly be odd.

 

Anyway, so next year would be option year 1, I guess. (since he will not use one this year). But now I am confused how arbitration would work for him. After three years on the 40 man, then you hit your three arbie years. So, does that mean if we kept Wang for three years in the minors, his third option year would be his 4th on the 40 man, hence his first arbie year... whilst he is still in the minors.

 

Now I have unanswered my own question. Help!

[logan82]

No after three years on the 40-man he is out of options if we used options in each year. Then there are 3 pre arby years, well 2 in this case. Then there are 3 arby years.

[torts]

i wouldnt be shocked if he had a decent year this year and the brewers kept him in the majors next year unless they move to stretch him back out to be a SP

[Point Beer Is Best]

Anyway, so next year would be option year 1, I guess. (since he will not use one this year). But now I am confused how arbitration would work for him. After three years on the 40 man, then you hit your three arbie years. So, does that mean if we kept Wang for three years in the minors, his third option year would be his 4th on the 40 man, hence his first arbie year... whilst he is still in the minors.

 

Now I have unanswered my own question. Help!

 

You have to be on the MLB roster (or MLB Disabled Lists), not just the 40 man roster for a player to accrue the service time that counts towards your arbitration/free agency clocks. After this season (if he stays with the Brewers) he will have one year of service time. If he is optioned to the minors in 2015 and 2016 and then makes the club in 2017, he will still only have one year of service time. In that scenario, he still has two pre-arby years, and then 3 arbitration-eligible years.

[HiAndTight]

These are playoff teams since 2000 that have kept rule 5 players on their roster the entire season.

 

 

2012 Orioles, Ryan Flaherty, INF

2011 Diamondbacks, Joe Paterson, LHP

2011 Phillies, Michael Martinez, INF

2010 Phillies, David Herndon, RHP

2005 Red Sox, Adam Stern, OF

2004 Cardinals, Hector Luna, INF

2004 Astros, Willy Taveras, OF

2004 Red Sox, Lenny DiNardo, RHP

2003 Athletics, Mike Neu, RHP

2002 Athletics, Jason Grabowski, INF

 

 

How many of those players had just one year of minor league experience before they played a full season in the majors? The answer is none. Wang simply is not ready to play MLB baseball right now.

 

If the Brewers are going to have him on the roster they at least need to play him. And see what happens. My guess is that he gets shelled mercilessly.

 

 

Edit - I don't have time to research it but I'd bet most of those guys above spent considerable time on their respective team's DL during the Rule 5 year. If Wang could hit the DL for most of the year I'd be fine with it. I don't mind him taking a spot on the 40 man roster, I just don't want him on the 25 man roster.

 

 

Just.....stop. You keep making these asinine statements of fact and you keep getting proven wrong, so you try to qualify your answer more and more...though at least not instead of making ignorant statements(such as guaranteeing that the Twins wouldn't have kept Santana on the active roster if they "planned," on being competitive) you're just guessing or assuming you're right despite being proven wrong.

 

And as far as him getting shelled mercilessly, do you watch the games? Because he looked pretty good his last time out hitting 96 on the gun with a nasty change.

 

 

So as to your questions that you don't know the answer to(and I'm not sure why you'd try to make an argument by saying, "I don't know the answer to this, but I'm convinced I'm right, I'm just not going to bother to look it up) I don't know how much experience those players had. IT'S NOT RELEVANT as Wang's situation is unique.

 

As for how much time those players spent on the DL, again, I have no idea. Look it up.

 

 

The point that you've been trying to make over and over again is that A-The Brewers are stupid to keep him on the 25 man regardless of how good he may eventually become because they're trying to compete this year(you highlighted such an absurd thought when you suggested that the Twins, even with the benefit of hindsight wouldn't have kept Santana had they been better) and B-That he has to be a GOOD major leaguer this year in order to stay on the team.

 

He does not. All he has to do is show that he has upside and there is absolutely no question about that at this point in time.

[HiAndTight]

Just out of curiosity, at what time does Wang 'project' to be major league ready? 2016, 2017? Where would he most likely wind up next season, Huntsville?

 

I would guess if he got through this season he'd be somewhere in A ball next year learning his craft.

 

 

Well then after your many "guesses," thus far on this thread, I'm going to say he's going to be anywhere BUT A ball next year.

 

Seriously, I would assume he'd either get the start at Huntsville or he'd move very quickly there. Every coach and all of his performances in ST'ing suggested he was a pitcher who was ahead of the curve.

He was only pitching in rookie ball because he was coming back from TJ.

 

But there is so much more that can happen in the meantime. Hell, he might end up being a nice piece in the pen by the end of the year.

[502 to Right]

Just out of curiosity, at what time does Wang 'project' to be major league ready? 2016, 2017? Where would he most likely wind up next season, Huntsville?

 

I would guess if he got through this season he'd be somewhere in A ball next year learning his craft.

 

 

Well then after your many "guesses," thus far on this thread, I'm going to say he's going to be anywhere BUT A ball next year.

 

Seriously, I would assume he'd either get the start at Huntsville or he'd move very quickly there. Every coach and all of his performances in ST'ing suggested he was a pitcher who was ahead of the curve.

He was only pitching in rookie ball because he was coming back from TJ.

 

But there is so much more that can happen in the meantime. Hell, he might end up being a nice piece in the pen by the end of the year.

 

The good thing is that by the end of the season we will have an answer as to how useful or detrimental he was to the team. So for now, I'm going to let Wang's arm do the talking.

[brwrsfan]

So if we want to send him down, we have to offer him on waivers to every other MLB team right? And if he clears, we'd then have to offer him back to Pittsburgh or work out a trade with them to keep him is that accurate?

[bjkrautk]

So if we want to send him down, we have to offer him on waivers to every other MLB team right? And if he clears, we'd then have to offer him back to Pittsburgh or work out a trade with them to keep him is that accurate?

 

If you work out a trade, he can be sent down without waivers, because this would be his first option year (as his first year on any team's 40-man roster). Without a trade, he would have to clear waivers before Pittsburgh could re-claim him (without adding him to their 40-man roster?).

[1992casey]

Players can be outrighted once without having to pass through waivers, but given the unusual situation involving Wang's voided contract, I don't know if that applies or not.