What do you think of our Wang? Slot Worthy?

[HiAndTight]

I actually hit on that very idea earlier in this thread. We have no idea if Wang is getting side throwing sessions or not, I would hope that he is, but that's only typically something that starters do in all levels of professional baseball. Pitchers in the bullpen typically don't get side sessions because they technically need to be "available" everyday. Which is why I like riding out relievers as starters for as long as possible in the minors, they get more in game action and more bullpen sessions to hone their craft. Obviously I really like Lee Tunnell and always have, I've found his knowledge and insight extremely valuable over the years, I've taken quite a bit of my pitching philosophy from him. I just don't think you are connecting the dots for this situation the same way that I am or you are possibly inferring something I didn't intend from my other posts.

 

Actually we do. I have no idea with what frequency that Wang is throwing these side sessions, but Roenicke has been asked about the fact that he hasn't been used and how he(Wang) is in a difficult situations. He acknowledged it's difficult for Wang to develop, but that he's working with the coaches, throwing on the side. This was probably about 10 games in, so I don't know if they're still doing it(though I would assume they are).

 

 

I'm just curious Crew07 what your alternative is? Give him back to the Pirates? How to you suggest we both keep him and pitch him like we would pitch if he was in A ball while still trying to win games? Just say screw it and throw him into close games?

[HiAndTight]

In addition from mop-up duty, I think that from time to time RR has to try and steal an inning using Wang to get through the 6th/7th of close games. Do it against teams with weak lineups or when an inning starts with the bottom of a team's order. Even if it's only between 1 and 2 appearances per week, it will help the pen in the long run.

 

 

So as opposed to throwing Duke(who I don't think if very good, but has pitched very well) or Gorz when he gets healthy, Kintzler, Thornburg, Smith or Henderson, you'd advocate throwing Wang in a close game. What if we do that 2-3 times and we lose the games as a direct result. The drop off right now, especially given the fact that Wang's confidence level is not very high is pretty significant between all those pitchers.

 

At the very least I would want it to be in a game in which we're down a couple runs.

 

There is no perfect solution here, but there is a lot of complaining about how much we're stunting the growth of a 21 year old left hander who would otherwise be in the Pirates system.

[FVBrewerFan]

There is no perfect solution here

 

There is a perfect solution. Try to trade him back, or release him.

 

He's just a luxory we can't afford. Look, even in games a starter goes 7+ innings RR will still burn through at least 3/5 of KRod, Henderson, Thornburg, Duke, Smith. Because even if a reliever doesn't pitch a full inning, he will play the match-up game.

 

Replace him with Kintzler when he comes back, and keep shuffling the last spot between Fiagarro, Wooten, Fiers, whoever. But everyone in the pen better be able to pitch in games other than 12-2 blow-outs.

[SRB]

Even great bullpens need a guy at the back of the bullpen to eat innings even if he's hemorrhaging runs.

 

Here's a list of the most valuable bullpens since 2000, and mediocre RP who served a mop-role in >30 IP:

 

(1) Minnesota Twins 2006 (498.0 IP, 3.26 FIP, 9.0 fWAR)

 

featuring: Willie Eyre, 59.1 IP, 5.31 ERA, 5.44 FIP, -0.3 fWAR

 

(2) Cleveland Indians 2001 (569.0 IP, 3.51 FIP, 8.7 fWAR)

 

featuring: Justine Speir, 20.2 IP, 6.97 ERA, 6.34 FIP, -0.3 fWAR

featuring: Roy Smith, 16.1 IP, 6.06 ERA, 6.11 FIP, -0.2 fWAR

 

(3) Texas Rangers 2004 (538.2 IP, 3.93 FIP, 8.5 fWAR)

 

featuring: Jeff Nelson, 23.2 IP, 5.32 ERA, 5.25 FIP, 0.0 fWAR

featuring: John Wasdin, 12.1 IP, 7.30 ERA, 6.45 FIP, -0.2 fWAR

 

(4) Los Angeles Angels 2004 (490.1 IP, 3.38 FIP, 8.3 fWAR) (K-Rod Powered!)

 

featuring: Ben Weber, 22.1 IP, 8.06 ERA, 6.41 FIP, -0.5 fWAR

featuring: Aaron Sale, 10.1 IP, 5.23 ERA, 5.66 FIP, -0.1 fWAR

 

(5) Oakland Athletics 2009 (559.1 IP, 3.35 FIP, 8.3 fWAR)

 

featuring: Santiago Casilla, 48.1 IP, 5.96 ERA, 5.00 FIP, -0.2 fWAR

featuring: Dan Giese, 16.1 IP, 5.51 ERA, 6.95 FIP, -0.4 fWAR

[Funketown]

For your viewing pleasure:

 

http://deadspin.com/what-if-all-baseball-players-were-fat-1567600912?utm_source=recirculation&utm_medium=recirculation&utm_campaign=fridayPM

[HiAndTight]

There is no perfect solution here

 

There is a perfect solution. Try to trade him back, or release him.

 

He's just a luxory we can't afford. Look, even in games a starter goes 7+ innings RR will still burn through at least 3/5 of KRod, Henderson, Thornburg, Duke, Smith. Because even if a reliever doesn't pitch a full inning, he will play the match-up game.

 

Replace him with Kintzler when he comes back, and keep shuffling the last spot between Fiagarro, Wooten, Fiers, whoever. But everyone in the pen better be able to pitch in games other than 12-2 blow-outs.

 

 

No, he's a luxury we can easily afford and I would say given our league best record this far, there isn't much evidence that you can show me that proves otherwise.

 

We've been given the chance to pick up what's been compared to a 1st round pick for nothing. And we want to just dump him because of what? We have 5 starters who go deep into games, we have several relievers who are formers starters and/or can go multiple innings.

 

 

And in what world does a bullpen have 7 guys that you can comfortably rely on pitching in high leverage situations? Not to mention, it's still SO early and he's got TWO MAJOR LEAGUE INNINGS under his belt. Thornburg gave up 4 HR's in his first major league outing. So forgive me for jumping to the conclusion that he's not capable of being the 7th guy in the pen, especially given what the Brewers are trying to accomplish by keeping him.

 

The same people that want to just get rid of a talent like him are the FIRST to scream and call for any and everyone's heads when he becomes a good starter for the Pirates down the road.

 

Jeez...show just a modicum of patience. If it becomes an issue, they'll figure it out. As hard as this is to believe, the entire season isn't going to consist of 1 run games or close games. Things will balance out.

 

It was just two weeks ago people were saying Henderson was wasting a spot in the pen because they can't count on him to throw any meaningful innings. It's a fluid situation and a bit more nuanced than you're suggesting.

[502 to Right]

Young pitchers don't learn their craft throwing side sessions. They learn their craft throwing side sessions and throwing in actual games. Having Wang on the roster is a waste. To him and the Brewers.

 

Wang was a nice project when it looked like the Brewers might suck. Well they don't so this little experiment needs to end.

[502 to Right]

 

Cute idea in practice? Kinda like Dan Uggla and Johan Santana were "cute ideas?"

 

Dan Uggla played for a Marlins team in 2006 that won 78 games. Johan Santana pitched for a Twins team in 2000 that won 69 games.

 

Carrying a Rule 5 guy for a season is OK for a non-contending team that is building for the future. It is not OK for a playoff contending team to carry a Rule 5 guy on the MLB roster all season (especially someone who pitched in Rookie ball last season).

 

I don't blame the Brewers for taking a flier on a guy like Wang but as a playoff contending team they need the roster spot for someone who can pitch at the MLB level.

 

 

So if the Twins were projected to win 90 games that year, they'd have been wrong to select Johan Santana? Because the difference between the production they would have gotten out of Santana and the 25th best guy on their roster was such a huge one it would have been worth giving up about 1200 innings pitched at a 2.92 ERA over a 6 year period and a 9.8 K/9 rate?

 

 

It's not a "cute idea," that's time is over, it's a smart, logical way to get a young, talented left handed pitcher on a team that desperately needs to develop it's own talent. And those were the 1st two rule 5 guys who came to my mind. How many wins do you really believe keeping Wang on our roster is going to cost us? We're 16-6 right now. Would we be 18-4.

 

Johan Santana put up a 6.49 ERA in his Rule 5 season. He was a disaster. The Twins could afford the disaster because they weren't going to make the playoffs anyway.

 

I'm not saying Wang won't be a good pitcher someday. He might. But it's not going to be a good pitcher for the Brewers at the MLB level this season.

[lcbj68c]

 

I'm not saying Wang won't be a good pitcher someday. He might. But it's not going to be a good pitcher for the Brewers at the MLB level this season.

 

He doesn't need to be. He just needs to be on the roster for 90 days, then can go on the 60-day DL and be returned to the minors next year all without hurting the Brewers playoff chances 1 iota. As somebody else said, would the Brewers be 19-4 with Figaro instead of Wang?

 

Can we please, please, please stop saying we can simply work out a trade with Pittsburg to circumvent the Rule 5 process, That is making me crazy. It's simply untruthful and causing lots of problems about the process of what CAN be done with one's Wang. If Wang is to be off our 25man roster, he HAS to be waived or DL'd. Being DL'd would require 90 days of service time on the 25man (over 2 years) to fulfill the obligations of the Rule 5 draft.

[adambr2]

Really, you've only got to ride out 4 more months. After August 31st rosters expand and you're free to bring up all the help you need.

 

The later it gets the more likely they are to stick with him. I'd like to see us eventually expand our trust in him a little more to the point of trusting him with a 4 or 5 run lead, even if it is with a short leash. I'm just not sure he'll log enough innings to save the rest of the pen otherwise.

 

Should the pen really be overworked at mid-season it wouldn't be the worst idea to carry 8 relievers in July and August. I tend to forget Bianchi is even on the roster and Overbay and Weeks hurt by being limited to one position each. Neither is particularly valuable and that lack of versatility hurts -- a player like Taylor Green, for instance, could play anywhere in the infield besides short where Bianchi can play.

 

Right now, the pen is being saved by starters that are going deeper into games than any team in MLB besides the Reds. I'm not sure we can count on that to last the entire season.

[dacbrewers]

 

I'm not saying Wang won't be a good pitcher someday. He might. But it's not going to be a good pitcher for the Brewers at the MLB level this season.

 

He doesn't need to be. He just needs to be on the roster for 90 days, then can go on the 60-day DL and be returned to the minors next year all without hurting the Brewers playoff chances 1 iota. As somebody else said, would the Brewers be 19-4 with Figaro instead of Wang?

 

Can we please, please, please stop saying we can simply work out a trade with Pittsburg to circumvent the Rule 5 process, That is making me crazy. It's simply untruthful and causing lots of problems about the process of what CAN be done with one's Wang. If Wang is to be off our 25man roster, he HAS to be waived or DL'd. Being DL'd would require 90 days of service time on the 25man (over 2 years) to fulfill the obligations of the Rule 5 draft.

 

The Brewers can definitely wait out the 90 days. I do like the idea of putting him on the 60 day DL...phantom injury...and sticking him in the minors next year. A possible future starter needs innings and he's not going to get it this year. I don't really think you can look at comparing Figaro vs. Wang for the simple fact that they don't come in to pitch under the same circumstances. Wang isn't going to be given the opportunity to hold or save a game. If you have Figaro coming into the same situation as Wang then he wouldn't be hurting the team. The way Nelson and Fiers are pitching at AAA A gives me hope this season. Even the pitchers at AA are putting up good numbers.

[folly412]

So far so good. The Wooten / Figaro rotation worked out just fine. What happens if there are injuries, more bullpen innings, and the express from Nashville can't come quick enough? Who knows. But I think it can be managed. You field 25 on a given day, but 40+ are possible tomorrow. Fortunately we have a pretty solid 26-28, even if #25 hasn't had any value.

[jerichoholicninja]

Or, you know, Ron could actually stop being a dunce and pitch him every now and then. Who cares what the score is, bring him in to face a #7 or #8 lefty.

[hyerbro1]

It is unlikely that Wang will placed on the 60 day DL. Freeing up a spot in the 40 man roster isn't the issue

 

But I think it is very likely he will end up with an extended stay on the 15 day DL and with as many rehab appearances as possible. I would guess he will miss at least a full month sometime in the middle of the season that will will occur when the bullpen is overworked. The Brewers great start made it possible to keep Wang. Wang needs 2 months of pre-September active days and then September when it doesn't matter. He already has one month. Anyone care to predict the injury? I am going with the 'dead arm'.

 

My point here is that keeping Wang isn't hurting the Brewers and most likely won't. The Brewers will put him on the DL as soon as the bullpen requires another pitcher and he will still get his 90 days.

[Mr Southpaw]

Just use the man as a LOOGY or pull him after a runner (or two) reaches base. Worst case scenario is he gives up a run or two.

[adambr2]

Seems pretty speculative to say Wang will just go on the 60 day DL after 90 days. I know the DL enforcement in MLB isn't the most strict, but especially for a guy who hardly ever pitches, that's a pretty blatantly obvious move unless he actually does something in a game.

 

We're pretty much freezing his development for a year at this point.

[SRB]

We're pretty much freezing his development for a year at this point.

 

Once again, better to "freeze" his development for one year and have him in the Brewers system than let him continue to develop for the Pirates. And I have to imagine being on an MLB roster offers quite a few developmental advantages even if he isn't pitching in games very often (yet).

[brewmann04]

A team with lack of quality arms in the system can't afford to lose a quality arm and have to do whatever is necessary to keep him in the organization.

[HiAndTight]

Johan Santana put up a 6.49 ERA in his Rule 5 season. He was a disaster. The Twins could afford the disaster because they weren't going to make the playoffs anyway.

 

I'm not saying Wang won't be a good pitcher someday. He might. But it's not going to be a good pitcher for the Brewers at the MLB level this season.

 

 

Who cares? He doesn't NEED to be a good pitcher for the Brewers this season. Do you even realize how absurd the argument you're making is? You're essentially saying that if the Twins would have been good in 2000 they should have dumped him because they were going to be competitive. Never mind the fact that he was the best pitcher in baseball for about 5-6 years and was absolutely dominant.

 

Why does this have to be an either or? Why can't we try and be competitive this year AND try and keep a promising young arm for the future?

 

By the way, the only thing the Brewers have proven is that they're a very good team through 23 games. And it's a blast watching this team right now, but do you really think they're a better team than STL, LAD and Washington right off the top? If we had a roster like the Dodgers and the money they had, we could afford to just get rid of such a promising young arm, but we're not. We have to take every single chance we can to develop young talented arms.

 

I'm sorry, I just don't understand why there would be such a vehement counter argument to keeping a talent like Wang in our organization at this point when he has not done a single thing to hurt this team. And especially when the alternative would be to give that pitcher back to a young team in our own division that's got a much brighter looking future as of now(a lot can change, but they have power arms, an OF that might be one of the most talented and athletic of the last 30 years when Polanco comes up).

 

So it's not just potentially huge coup for us to get steal a talent like Wang, it's a loss for the Pirates.

[HiAndTight]

Or, you know, Ron could actually stop being a dunce and pitch him every now and then. Who cares what the score is, bring him in to face a #7 or #8 lefty.

 

 

Right. And I'm sure if Roenicke brought Wang into a 3-3 game in the 7th or 8th inning vs STL to face the bottom of the order(I forget, who comes up after the bottom of the order?) and he blew the lead, you would still completely support his decision, right?

 

Yeah, he's the dunce for not pitching the kid in a close game at this point in the season.

 

 

I think some people just HAVE to have some things to complain about. Almost everything has gone perfectly. I guess it's a good thing that the biggest thing that some people are getting themselves all worked up about is the usage of a 21 year old rule 5 draftee.

[adambr2]

We're pretty much freezing his development for a year at this point.

 

Once again, better to "freeze" his development for one year and have him in the Brewers system than let him continue to develop for the Pirates. And I have to imagine being on an MLB roster offers quite a few developmental advantages even if he isn't pitching in games very often (yet).

 

I never said it wasn't. Just pointing out that if you pitch him rarely for 3 months and then "DL" him for the rest of the year, that's effectively what you have done.

[502 to Right]

Johan Santana put up a 6.49 ERA in his Rule 5 season. He was a disaster. The Twins could afford the disaster because they weren't going to make the playoffs anyway.

 

I'm not saying Wang won't be a good pitcher someday. He might. But it's not going to be a good pitcher for the Brewers at the MLB level this season.

 

 

Who cares? He doesn't NEED to be a good pitcher for the Brewers this season. Do you even realize how absurd the argument you're making is? You're essentially saying that if the Twins would have been good in 2000 they should have dumped him because they were going to be competitive. Never mind the fact that he was the best pitcher in baseball for about 5-6 years and was absolutely dominant.

 

Why does this have to be an either or? Why can't we try and be competitive this year AND try and keep a promising young arm for the future?

 

 

Yes, he does need to be a good pitcher. Playoff contending teams don't intentionally assemble a roster with a terrible/untrustworthy pitcher. You need every quality arm you can get.

 

And yes, I am saying that if the Twins had been competitive in 2000 they would not have have kept Santana and his 6.49 ERA around.

 

It is absurd to use part of a playoff contending roster as a developmental squad.

[jerichoholicninja]

I think some people just HAVE to have some things to complain about. Almost everything has gone perfectly. I guess it's a good thing that the biggest thing that some people are getting themselves all worked up about is the usage of a 21 year old rule 5 draftee.

 

It's not the usage, it's the lack of usage that has led to the over-usage of other guys and Ron's reasoning for it. Ron won't use him because he doesn't want to hurt his confidence. What a load of crap. Wang faced Major Leaguers in spring, he was a professional is Taiwan, he knows he's not ready and is only on the roster due to a technicality. If his confidence wasn't destroyed after his outing in Pittsburgh, nothing will. The pitcher always has the advantage over the hitter because hitting is hard. Having Wang face a bad lefty hitter or two, regardless of the score, is rarely going to affect the outcome of a game.

[adambr2]

I'd let him face a guy with a 3 or 4 run lead. He doesn't need to pitch a full inning. Just give him a batter. If he doesn't retire him, pull him.

 

He gave up 6 runs his last outing. He's not going to lose confidence from that by giving up one baserunner. Conversely, if he retires one it could help.

[RockCoCougars]

You know it's been a great season to this point when this is the biggest bone of contention. Nothing against the kid, but here's hoping that Wang's appearances continue to be few and far between.