Any inside knowledge here on the Melvin/Attanasio working relationship?

[Thurston Fluff]

Adding Garza would be a lot less helpful getting us back into playoff contention without having Lohse on board already.

 

The fear is having another Suppan situation. An older pitcher is added who is worthless near the end of the contract when the Brewers make the playoffs.

 

I think that fear is valid but I don't know if paralysis by fear is the best way to operate. Which is why I think Melvin and Attanasio are on the same page when it comes to risk. They are willing to go out on a limb and live with the consequences.

I also think the fear of another Suppan deal is getting way overblown. At the time they had serious problems getting free agents to consider Milwaukee and they knew they were overpaying him when they did it. That is not what happened with Lohse and now Garza. Most people seem to be in agreement that the contracts are pretty team friendly for the type of pitchers they are getting. Yes they could blow up. But so could relying on the youngsters.

[BCZF]

So, yeah.. Doug and Mark....Yep...Pretty much...

[LouisEly]

I would like to imagine that a special position w/in the organization could be hired. The position: Cardinal Scout. Have this person study and analyze every single move that the Cardinals have made over the last 15 years and find the patterns. Sounds pretty simple to me. Just make it happen.

If you look at the moves the Cardinals have made the last 15 years you can separate them into two distinct buckets: the last five years and the previous ten years. The last five years - get lucky with pitching in the draft and trade young talent for veterans. The ten years prior to that - draft decent bats and mediocre pitching and trade young talent for veterans.

 

The Cardinals might not have gone to the World Series last year if they didn't trade 2010 first round draft pick Zach Cox for Edward Mujica in 2012. The Cardinals don't win the 2011 WS if they don't trade a 24-year-old former first round draft pick CF who put up a .850 OPS in the majors as a 23-year-old the year before for 1/3rd of a season of Edwin Jackson and 37-year-old Octavio Dotel (the comp pick they got for Jackson has a .613 OPS in two years of rookie ball). The next year they signed 35-year-old FA Carlos Beltran. In 2009 the Cardinals trade 23-year-old closer Chris Perez for 1/2 season of 34-year-old Mark DeRosa (and the comp pick they got for losing DeRosa has a career minor league WHIP of 1.615). In the 15 years prior to 2008 the best starting pitcher the Cardinals drafted was Dan Haren in 2001, but traded him for Mark Mulder before the 2005 season. (Mark Mulder should be given special recognition for doing his best to try to keep the Cardinals out of the 2006 postseason and washing out after one good season in STL.) After Haren, the next best pitcher was probably Jaime Garcia (career WAR 4.8), but you'd have to go back to Matt Morris in 1995 to find a Cardinals pitcher drafted (and signed) with a career WAR >10. The Cardinals success was built on drafting bats (Pujols, Molina, Drew whom they traded for Wainwright, but they got lucky with Pujols because other teams had 401 chances to draft him).

 

In case you can't tell, I'm kind of tired of hearing about copying the Cardinals. Yes, they've gotten lucky with drafting pitching the last five years, but prior to that they made a lot of bad moves and moves that most people here would vehemently disagree with if not cause them to abandon the Brewers altogether. If you want to see some bad drafts, look at the Cardinals 2002 and 2004 drafts. In the 2005 talent-rich draft the Cardinals had four top-50 picks and six picks in the first two rounds and only came away with Colby Rasmus (as mentioned earlier, traded for 1/3rd of a season of Edwin Jackson and Octavio Dotel and what looks to be a wasted comp pick). This whole Cardinals drafting/pitching development thing is a very recent phenomena, not something that has been consistent in the organization for 15 years. Their WS title in 2006 was one of the biggest flukes in all of sports history. Model the last five years, yes, but not the last 15.

[HiAndTight]

I read in one of the JSOnline blog posts today that Attanasio's typically involved in the negotiations with most of the biggest-buck contracts. Where some here are inclined to construe that as meddling or overstepping bounds, I don't. . . . In simplest form, here's why: Really, if you think about it, do we ever hear of Mark A being involved w/ FA's & huge contracts that don't come to pass? NO. And I think it's pretty obviously because when the Brewers & the desired player are NOT close to making a deal happen, there's no reason whatsoever for the owner to be involved. I just don't think the owner being involved makes a darn thing happen until a deal is already close enough to happen.

 

Using the Garza signing as an example, it was revealed that Melvin's been in contact w/ Garza's reps since the Winter Meetings or before. I seriously doubt that means Attanasio's been active, let alone in the picture, that whole time. Rather, I take that to mean that Melvin & his folks do their homework/research and the "heavy lifting" of contacting, recruiting, sales-pitch-ing, and all that stuff, and then when things get close and it's time to talk $$, it's probably just easier for Attanasio to be involved directly so Melvin's not constantly having to pull the standard car salesman trick ("let me go talk to my boss") which ultimately would interrupt or even jeopardize the process. . . . . In short, to me, I think Attanasio's involvement simply helps Melvin make the big-buck signings happen more efficiently. . .

 

I think the Lohse signing wasn't Mark A meddling, either, but rather this: Melvin realized that most of the young guys he hoped to have in the rotation were so consistently putrid in spring training (Peralta, Fiers, & Rogers, to be specific) -- a chance and a path SO many on this site were championing throughout the winter going into ST '13, that the young guys should be given a chance to perform -- and Lohse was available so late in ST for reasonable terms, the only drawback being the draft pick, that a move was deemed essential and they were the only team who eventually decided it was worth the risk to sacrifice the draft pick to get Lohse onto the team. . . . To me, it was a very logical baseball decision combined with the right player & opportunity (albeit with an obvious drawback that didn't outweigh the positives or at least the highly pronounced need). If or that Mark A was involved in the negotiations is consistent with his statement today and to be expected simply because it was a big contract.

 

So that's my long-winded reaction to your question, Danzig. I'm sure others will disagree. I'd also suggest just what you did, that ultimately, none of us really truly know.

 

Thank God we signed Kyle Lohse. We won 74 games. I personally would've preferred letting the young guys take their lumps and who cares what the record was. 65 wins instead of 74? What's the difference?

 

Although as stated in the Garza thread, with Seid making the pick it probably didn't matter anyway.

 

 

Sorry if this has been mentioned, but for arguments sake, a pick in the top 5 (harder to mess up) and perhaps someone like Abreu, plus the 17th pick in last years draft.

 

I'm sorta resolved to the fact the Brewers are merely a slightly better version 8f what the Bucks were for so many years. I'd love to see about 3 60 win seasons, 3 top 5 picks, 10+ prospects for Lohse, Yo,Aram if he can stay healthy, and whomever else while spending about 50 million dollars until we're ready to compete again.

 

Though watching a team that should be roughly .500 try and put everything together is a lot more fun in the meantime....

[HiAndTight]

It amazes me that, so relatively soon after Selig (-Prieb) ownership, fans are now complaining that our owner might be too active in 'meddling' to make sure we sign high-priced free agents.

 

 

I love Mark A and I'm not complaining about him being the one behind the biggest FA signings, ie, Suppan, Lohse and Garza (and likely Gange, Looper and others).

 

But just because an owner wants to win, and is willing to spend9end money doesn't mean that in and of itself is a good thing. How is that different than Herb Kohl? He spends money. He wants to win every year, sacrificing potential long term success for short term mediocrity.

 

Maybe one is given too much credit for his intentions and one too little.

[Warning Track Power]

I'm sorta resolved to the fact the Brewers are merely a slightly better version of what the Bucks were for so many years. I'd love to see about 3 60 win seasons, 3 top 5 picks, 10+ prospects for Lohse, Yo,Aram if he can stay healthy, and whomever else while spending about 50 million dollars until we're ready to compete again.

 

Though watching a team that should be roughly .500 try and put everything together is a lot more fun in the meantime....

I won't delve into the economics of baseball and basketball but I will say that the odds against the Brewers are significantly more stacked than those against the Bucks. Whereas the Bucks play in a socialistic society, the Brewers play in a capitalistic society. I'd gladly take an 81 - 88 win Brewer team annually that never won a World Series, but that's just me.