The Redemption Plan for Ryan Braun

[RightFieldCoder]

So the situation is simple, if you do not ban PEDs, they become essentially mandatory. If everyone is taking them, there is no net competitive edge, but the players all get extra health risks.

 

Then a group of ex-players sue MLB that they didn't stop them from taking PEDs.

[phnxcrew]

IMO our society gets way too emotionally involved with sports in general (I was once one of those people). If you honestly have even a second to waste on hating an entertainer I would like to borrow some of your time. Heck, I don't even have children yet (then I will buy your extra time).

 

He screwed up. Then he screwed up again. Then he said "oh crap they caught me" and confessed. Yeah, he should never be viewed the same- it doesn't make it right that many more unknown players do it. Nothing justifies his actions. To me it's like one of my favorite musicians doing a duet with lady gaga. It's all for the money and we choose the entertainers we follow/ listen to. Choose to forgive him or move on. All he is going to do is keep his head down and hit homeruns. The people who have time to hate him have personal problems and use that as their outlet and will continue to do so- in my mind that's a reflection of your life.

[BrewCrewForever]

He doesn't have any redeeming to do in my eyes. But if he did it would be one thing: rake.

[adambr2]

Once again, JimH puts it in words better than I ever could. I pretty much agree with what he said.

 

My hostile feeling towards Braun are not as strong as there once were. My frustration is more towards the population out there who just shrug off PEDs or are actually for PED's if they make the product on the field "more exciting to watch". What about reality? Do you have any interest in watching that? All sports could be more exciting if the games were fixed..if pitchers purposely threw meat pitches so that there could me more HR's because that's "more exciting" to watch. Do you think all professional sports should just go the way of professional wrestling and throw all honesty and integrity out the window?

 

Also, this whole "everyone is doing it so it's ok" philosophy...really? I sure hope this is not how people are raising their children.

 

Everyone should have to play like they did in the 60's! On greenies and with no off season training or good nutrition!

 

Heck, make them all take second jobs like the guys in the 30's!

 

I don't understand the idea that there is some hard line to be drawn, and if you cross it, you are suddenly a horrible person.

 

As for your other comments, he isn't stealing from other people. He isn't robbing a bank. He is an entertainer. Are you going to chastise Charlie Sheen for the steroids he took while filming Major League? Or Sylvester Stallone for what he took in Rocky?

 

If you're relying on athletes to set an example for your children and teach them how to live, I'm going to tell you that you're raising your children wrong.

 

1) Children are going to watch/hear/talk about sports. That's a fact.

2) Children are going to emulate their favorite athletes. That's also a fact.

3) Many children are going to participate in sports.

 

It's not really about relying on athletes to set examples. I'm not sure if you have children or not, but I sure wouldn't want mine thinking that cheating to get ahead in sports is acceptable. Nor would I want them doing harmful things to their own bodies. And yes, if professional athletes do it, it's more likely to be accepted by kids.

 

These are illegal substances here. We're not talking about Braun smoking a cigarette. Where does one draw the line on that kind of activity?

 

And telling a parent that they're raising their children wrong is about the worst and least tactful thing you can say to a parent. Even if there might be elements of truth in it at times.

[JohnBriggs12]

"These are illegal substance here. We're not talking about Braun smoking a cigarette"

 

Not necessarily. Braun took something that boosts testosterone. What do you think those all those adds featuring middle age men suffering from "low T" take? I'd be fairly certain those are all on MLB's banned substances list but they are not illegal. I especially love the irony of the guy in the commercial who takes testosterone boosting medicine umpiring. Message is, take it for umpiring not for playing. Braun may have obtained it illegally, but it may not have been an illegal substance.

[Baldkin]

Once again, JimH puts it in words better than I ever could. I pretty much agree with what he said.

 

My hostile feeling towards Braun are not as strong as there once were. My frustration is more towards the population out there who just shrug off PEDs or are actually for PED's if they make the product on the field "more exciting to watch". What about reality? Do you have any interest in watching that? All sports could be more exciting if the games were fixed..if pitchers purposely threw meat pitches so that there could me more HR's because that's "more exciting" to watch. Do you think all professional sports should just go the way of professional wrestling and throw all honesty and integrity out the window?

 

Also, this whole "everyone is doing it so it's ok" philosophy...really? I sure hope this is not how people are raising their children.

 

Everyone should have to play like they did in the 60's! On greenies and with no off season training or good nutrition!

 

Heck, make them all take second jobs like the guys in the 30's!

 

I don't understand the idea that there is some hard line to be drawn, and if you cross it, you are suddenly a horrible person.

 

As for your other comments, he isn't stealing from other people. He isn't robbing a bank. He is an entertainer. Are you going to chastise Charlie Sheen for the steroids he took while filming Major League? Or Sylvester Stallone for what he took in Rocky?

 

If you're relying on athletes to set an example for your children and teach them how to live, I'm going to tell you that you're raising your children wrong.

 

1) Children are going to watch/hear/talk about sports. That's a fact.

2) Children are going to emulate their favorite athletes. That's also a fact.

3) Many children are going to participate in sports.

 

It's not really about relying on athletes to set examples. I'm not sure if you have children or not, but I sure wouldn't want mine thinking that cheating to get ahead in sports is acceptable. Nor would I want them doing harmful things to their own bodies. And yes, if professional athletes do it, it's more likely to be accepted by kids.

 

These are illegal substances here. We're not talking about Braun smoking a cigarette. Where does one draw the line on that kind of activity?

 

And telling a parent that they're raising their children wrong is about the worst and least tactful thing you can say to a parent. Even if there might be elements of truth in it at times.

 

First off, I don't have kids.

 

I was raised to play, follow, watch, love, and emulate my favorite athletes. I was a huge Paul Molitor fan. I have never done cocaine.

 

Why? Because my parents taught me right and wrong, and they taught me that there are consequences for your actions.

 

If my (future) child was a good enough athlete and thought they had a legitimate chance to set their entire family up for life by using steroids, I would tell them to know the consequences, both physical and the worst case if they got caught, and to do what they wanted.

 

Would I let my 14 year old take steroids? No way.

 

Would I inject my kids with an HGH perscription? Heck no.

 

Again, I think we have a huge group of amazingly smart people here, and I'm not trying to offend, even though I know my comments rub a lot of people the wrong way. I just feel as though this idea that kids are going to use steroids because of Ryan Braun is pretty absurd. Kids have been using steroids for 30 years, because they are misinformed of the consequences and/or the benefits, or they simply do not care.

 

Heck, 90210 (!!) had an episode about it 22 YEARS ago.

 

http://90210.wikia.com/wiki/A_Competitive_Edge

[rickh150]

After starting this topical discussion, I was amazed at the wide range of opinion.Some wanted nothing to do with Braun anymore... to the point of trading him or having him off the roster. Others say there is no hope for any type of redemption for the man.

 

I am in neither camp.

 

[edited by moderator]

 

Let's be real here: In this world, there is redemption either on a small or much, much larger level. We all have been forgiven of something in our life. Our parents, boss, brother, friend, wife, girl friend, or next door neighbor has forgiven us at some point. We have all been thankful to a degree.

 

 

 

[edited by moderator]

 

Likewise, Braun needs to humble himself more. As far as I'm concerned, he has only been sorry for being caught. Give back the MVP, Braun. Ya cheated and you got caught. Denounce PEDs and do something positive to show that baseball authorities have it right in trying to clean up the game.

[torts]

 

Everyone should have to play like they did in the 60's! On greenies and with no off season training or good nutrition!

 

Heck, make them all take second jobs like the guys in the 30's!

 

I don't understand the idea that there is some hard line to be drawn, and if you cross it, you are suddenly a horrible person.

 

As for your other comments, he isn't stealing from other people. He isn't robbing a bank. He is an entertainer. Are you going to chastise Charlie Sheen for the steroids he took while filming Major League? Or Sylvester Stallone for what he took in Rocky?

 

If you're relying on athletes to set an example for your children and teach them how to live, I'm going to tell you that you're raising your children wrong.

 

1) Children are going to watch/hear/talk about sports. That's a fact.

2) Children are going to emulate their favorite athletes. That's also a fact.

3) Many children are going to participate in sports.

 

It's not really about relying on athletes to set examples. I'm not sure if you have children or not, but I sure wouldn't want mine thinking that cheating to get ahead in sports is acceptable. Nor would I want them doing harmful things to their own bodies. And yes, if professional athletes do it, it's more likely to be accepted by kids.

 

These are illegal substances here. We're not talking about Braun smoking a cigarette. Where does one draw the line on that kind of activity?

 

And telling a parent that they're raising their children wrong is about the worst and least tactful thing you can say to a parent. Even if there might be elements of truth in it at times.

 

First off, I don't have kids.

 

I was raised to play, follow, watch, love, and emulate my favorite athletes. I was a huge Paul Molitor fan. I have never done cocaine.

 

Why? Because my parents taught me right and wrong, and they taught me that there are consequences for your actions.

 

If my (future) child was a good enough athlete and thought they had a legitimate chance to set their entire family up for life by using steroids, I would tell them to know the consequences, both physical and the worst case if they got caught, and to do what they wanted.

 

Would I let my 14 year old take steroids? No way.

 

Would I inject my kids with an HGH perscription? Heck no.

 

Again, I think we have a huge group of amazingly smart people here, and I'm not trying to offend, even though I know my comments rub a lot of people the wrong way. I just feel as though this idea that kids are going to use steroids because of Ryan Braun is pretty absurd. Kids have been using steroids for 30 years, because they are misinformed of the consequences and/or the benefits, or they simply do not care.

 

Heck, 90210 (!!) had an episode about it 22 YEARS ago.

 

http://90210.wikia.com/wiki/A_Competitive_Edge

 

great use of a 90210 reference!

[MJLiverock]

I pretty much agree with the take Baldkin provided, except I do have kids. Braun got caught, served his time, it is time to move on. I don't hold any grudges about it. I am firmly in the camp that PED's have been widespread in baseball for 30 years so no reason to get all worked up about it now. I graduated high school in 1991 from a small school in WI with about 600 total kids int the high school. I personally know of 3 players I played football with that took steroids while I was a sophomore and junior (they were in the two classes above me) so that puts steroid use in small town WI high school sports in about 1988. One of my best friends was from Texas and when we went down to visit his dad we stopped by his old HS to work out and visit their football team's private weight room. He told me how one of his workout partners used to shoot up right in the work out room (the guy went on to a scholarship at Texas A&M). I figure if steroids were being used in small town WI high schools and in Texas high schools in the late 80's, MLB players were well aware of the them and were likely using them much earlier than that. Not to mention the recuperative effects of HGH that doctors have used for patients for years. Knowing how long PED's have been around I am not prepared or willing to pretend that they somehow just made it the game in the 90's.

My best friend's Dad played D1 college football in the late 60's/early 70's and admitted he used to inject steroids. He had connections to some Olympic weight lifters who he said all used back then.

 

I think some of the indignation of the sports writers is ridiculous but getting people all riled up is what sells for journalism today. I don't think MLB or the writers really care to know the extent of the PED use or for how long players used. Writers, MLB, and the HOF don't worry about the heroes of the game from yester years that were wife abusing, racist, alcoholic, greenie popping, coke snorting jerks but take a PED, many of which are available over the counter or are prescribed everyday by doctors to non athletes to help recover from injury and suddenly these guys are ruining the game? How many of Barry Bond's HR's were hit off of guys like Clemens that were just as juiced as he was? Maybe they will eventually get to the point where HGH and testosterone are administered by a team doctor and it is viewed as no different than the personal trainer, video studying, personal nutritionist, personal swing coach, ligament replacement, etc. that players use now. If I blow out my ACL and a doctor prescribes HGH to help speed my recovery why shouldn't pro athletes use the same technology to recover or stay on the field through nagging injuries? Or just be flat out better at their chosen profession?

 

I don't advocate juicing up a kid but I also don't buy into the poor me I couldn't make it because someone else in the minors or college was using PEDs. I see parents spending thousands of dollars on sending kids to highly specialized camps for baseball, hockey, etc. is that fair to the kids who can't afford to get this training from a young age all through their teen years? Which kid has a better shot a scholarship or getting drafted? The kid who plays 15 high school baseball games a year and maybe 15 more over the summer while coached by a history teacher who played D3 ball or the kid who plays those games plus travels all winter, has a former MLer as a hitting coach 2x a week in a private cage, etc.?

 

Getting back on topic, I just don't get upset at Braun and hope he continues to hit at the level he has every year of his career. He served his time and isn't very different that a lot of MLers. I just don't care about PED use because it is so prevalent and has medical uses like many other advances in the sports world. I think most of the writers and indignation is just simply jealousy and finding something to get angry about.

[vegasbrewcrew1993]

Everyone will forget as soon as he starts putting up good numbers. I'm a Brewers fan first. Braun's just someone that happens to play for my favorite team. I don't care if he used PED's. Everyone else in baseball is cheating in some form or another. The whole game is dirty. I'm not some naive fool that still believes MLB is clean. I've accepted that unfortunately this game is tainted. I don't get surprised anymore when superstar players get caught cheating. Braun's a product of his environment. You don't get paid big money in sports by playing clean. He's got no choice but to cheat just like the others if he wants to make big money. I blame this 100% on that scumbag coward of a commissioner Bud Selig. That lying prick is the reason why steroids have ruined baseball. Now the coward has the nerve to act all ''high and mighty'' when it comes to steroids. The hypocrite supported the use of steroids in the 90s. Don't get mad at the players for doing something that you as the COMMISSIONER of baseball approved.

[BuckyBrewer61]

If I blow out my ACL and a doctor prescribes HGH to help speed my recovery why shouldn't pro athletes use the same technology to recover or stay on the field through nagging injuries?

 

This argument continues to drive me nuts, and I don't know how it got started, much less become so prevalent in this conversation. Let's be very clear about this. Systemic steroids, and PEDs in general, do not help aid in recovery. In fact, in general steroids have the exact opposite effect, actually impairing the healing process. Now, there are select situations that they are used in the medical profession, i.e. a local steroid injection at the site of a stable injury purely for pain relief, which is also legal for athletes. But using them systemically in someone recovering from injury would have the exact opposite of the intended effect.

 

Plain and simple, athletes that take PEDs are doing it for one reason and one reason only - to get bigger, stronger, faster, better - to gain a competitive advantage. Perhaps they are doing so in the context of regaining strength, speed, and ability after an injury, but there is simply no good scientific evidence that these drugs help with healing of an actual injury itself.

[homer]

Hank Aaron used PED's.

[nate82]

If I blow out my ACL and a doctor prescribes HGH to help speed my recovery why shouldn't pro athletes use the same technology to recover or stay on the field through nagging injuries?

 

This argument continues to drive me nuts, and I don't know how it got started, much less become so prevalent in this conversation. Let's be very clear about this. Systemic steroids, and PEDs in general, do not help aid in recovery.

 

Not true at all.

 

Growth Hormone Activates Gene Involved In Healing Damaged Tissue

[BuckyBrewer61]

If I blow out my ACL and a doctor prescribes HGH to help speed my recovery why shouldn't pro athletes use the same technology to recover or stay on the field through nagging injuries?

 

This argument continues to drive me nuts, and I don't know how it got started, much less become so prevalent in this conversation. Let's be very clear about this. Systemic steroids, and PEDs in general, do not help aid in recovery.

 

Not true at all.

 

Growth Hormone Activates Gene Involved In Healing Damaged Tissue

 

This is one article about genetic biology of elderly mice from 11 years ago, very far from any sort of proof on the topic. I can pick and choose random studies to prove my point too. How about this one, 10 years more current:

 

"Human growth hormone may be detrimental when used to accelerate recovery from acute tendon-bone interface injuries." Published in the Journal of Bone and Joint Surgery in May 2013. This found that rats subjected to rotator cuff injury and repair that were given HGH post-repair not only did not have any benefit in healing, but actually demonstrated weaker, less durable repairs.

 

Again, this is not any sort of conclusive evidence on human subjects, but people talk as though HGH and other PEDs are accepted, routine therapies in recovery from injury, and this is one fact that is very simply not true. Ok, maybe some athletes believe (without any scientific evidence to support them or those that supply the drugs to them) that they are using PEDs to accelerate their healing, but let's not kid ourselves about the reason the majority of athletes use PEDs.

[logan82]

How does HGH work with muscle injuries. It just says "tendon-bone interface injuries."

[BuckyBrewer61]

HGH has been shown to increase lean muscle mass and decrease fat mass, but has never been shown to significantly improve healing from any injury - muscle, bone, tendon, you name it. Anyone that has used it for, or claims its role in "healing" is purely speculating as to its benefit given the complete lack of evidence in human subjects that any benefit exists at all.

 

HGH actually has less evidence supporting increase in strength, power, and endurance than does testosterone. Testosterone has better evidence showing its benefit in these measures and hasn't really been linked to injury healing, hypothetically or otherwise, like HGH has. So when I hear Ryan Braun or others say he was taking testosterone for nagging injuries in 2011, it sounds just as phony as his press conference in 2012. Let's call a spade a spade here.

[RockCoCougars]

Kind of veering this a tad OT, but I was happy to hear Molitor's comments today about A-Rod. He must have hit a nerve, because he brought the steroid apologists out in full force. They basically called Molitor a cokehead hypocrite and yet again compared the widespread use of diet pills by players in the 60's and 70's to cycling human growth hormone.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Molitor is a hypocrite. Part of the criteria for being in the HOF is 'character', and he was a douchebag coke addict.

[RockCoCougars]

Molitor is a hypocrite. Part of the criteria for being in the HOF is 'character', and he was a douchebag coke addict.

 

I disagree. If you started judging HOF on 'character', a heavy majority of inductees would fail under scrutiny. As for Molitor, he has had some personal problems, but I never have read about any arrests, etc. He played the game the right way, and has always conducted himself publicly with class and treated fans with respect. Unlike the steroid cheats, he has owned his problems, and has been answering to them for 30 years. I have a lot more respect for him as a person and as a player than I do for Braun, A-Rod, or any of the other cheats who try/have tried to play me as a fool.

[Invader3K]

Molitor is a hypocrite. Part of the criteria for being in the HOF is 'character', and he was a douchebag coke addict.

 

Yeah, because he was the only guy in the Hall of Fame from that era who did cocaine, right?

[MJLiverock]

If I blow out my ACL and a doctor prescribes HGH to help speed my recovery why shouldn't pro athletes use the same technology to recover or stay on the field through nagging injuries?

 

This argument continues to drive me nuts, and I don't know how it got started, much less become so prevalent in this conversation. Let's be very clear about this. Systemic steroids, and PEDs in general, do not help aid in recovery. In fact, in general steroids have the exact opposite effect, actually impairing the healing process. Now, there are select situations that they are used in the medical profession, i.e. a local steroid injection at the site of a stable injury purely for pain relief, which is also legal for athletes. But using them systemically in someone recovering from injury would have the exact opposite of the intended effect.

 

Plain and simple, athletes that take PEDs are doing it for one reason and one reason only - to get bigger, stronger, faster, better - to gain a competitive advantage. Perhaps they are doing so in the context of regaining strength, speed, and ability after an injury, but there is simply no good scientific evidence that these drugs help with healing of an actual injury itself.

 

I didn't say Braun did or didn't take PED for the strength or even speculate as to his reasons for taking them. But there are plenty of cases where HGH was used to recover from injury and my point has been at what time will the so called PED's just be considered a medical improvement like taking a ligament from somewhere in the body or a cadaver and using it in the elbow? Nothing too natural about that procedure. Or having blood drained and mixed for platelet plasma therapy.

 

It doesn't take much effort to find plenty of articles about the healing benefits of HGH, especially in repairing cartilage. There aren't much for long term studies on the effects(good or bad) but plenty of doctors have used HGH to help in the recovery from surgery.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=2574291 HGH injections to recover from knee surgery

 

rowth hormone is regarded as a performance enhancer by the World Anti-Doping Agency, the NFL and other leagues, and thus a banned drug. It is usually discussed in tandem with anabolic steroids, for the drugs have been used together by elite athletes who seek a competitive edge. After steroids and HGH user Ben Johnson was stripped of his sprint gold medal at the '88 Olympics, the two substances were criminalized by federal lawmakers. In the public mind, GH and 'roids are the Beavis and Butt-Head of sports dope, as inseparable as they are subversive.

 

But many athletes such as al-Jabbar think of the drugs in distinct ways. One set (steroids) is known to build powerful muscle, while the other (growth hormone) is "more to recover from injury," he said. "I haven't heard of growth hormone giving you strength."

 

His impression has some support in the scientific community. Most of the research on HGH has been done on the elderly, not elite athletes, but studies have shown that while the drug might grow the size of a muscle, it is not associated with a spike in strength. In a 2004 review of the literature that was published in the American Journal of Sports Medicine and written as a guide for team doctors, the authors concluded that "there is no evidence that growth hormone supplementation will lead to an increase in performance."

 

Produced naturally by the anterior pituitary gland, at the base of the brain, growth hormone plays a major role in body growth by stimulating the liver and other tissues to produce insulin-like growth factor, or IGF-1. One of the chief actions of IGF-1 is that it stokes the creation of cartilage and bone, a benefit that has not gone unnoticed by athletes and orthopedists. Injected, synthetic HGH has the same effect.

 

"I've seen a whole spectrum from professional athletes in all sports, down to college and even high school players that have been on growth hormone," said Dr. Rick Delamarter, a Los Angeles spine surgeon and UCLA professor who has treated scores of big-name athletes. "I have seen the benefits of growth hormone post-operatively in recovering from surgery."

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/12/031204074202.htm

It activates a gene critical for the body's tissues to heal and regenerate, says Robert Costa, professor of biochemistry and molecular genetics at the University of Illinois at Chicago and a member of the UIC Cancer Center.

While several studies have shown that prolonged growth hormone therapy has dangerous side effects ranging from diabetes to carpal tunnel syndrome, Costa believes that short-term treatment with growth hormone could be used to speed repair after injuries or surgery in the elderly, shortening recovery time.

*********

I could also add that when my brother had rotator cuff surgery in high school (wrestling injury not baseball) he was put on some sort of steroid by the doctor. We all joked about him being on 'roids at the time.

[BuckyBrewer61]

Fair enough, I probably could have worded my statement better and been less emphatic, but my point is simply that there is not good evidence that HGH or other PED's improve healing, and while some out there may prescribe it they are doing so on the speculation as to its benefit, not with good scientific evidence behind it. Yeah, there have been a ton of medical advancements that give athletes an advantage today vs the past (like cadaver grafts, Tommy John surgery, etc.). But those are accepted, well-studied medical therapies that are universally accepted. PEDs for recovery from injury are simply not. If they were, I'd be 100% behind athletes using them. But they're not.

 

There is a reason you never hear these athletes saying "Well my doc thought this would really help, but when I spoke to MLB about it they refused to let me take it." If that did happen, you know we'd have heard about it from the athlete himself or the MLBPA. Or "Gosh, I just didn't tell MLB about it because my doctor prescribed it to me and I didn't think it was a big deal." There's a reason athletes get PEDs from guys like Tony Bosch and Victor Conte.

 

In the end my whole point is just that I get frustrated when the public accepts recovery from injury as some kind of excuse, because IMO that's not any excuse at all. And as long as some do accept that excuse, athletes like Braun will claim they were using PEDs like testosterone, which has never been linked to injury recovery, as just an aid for a nagging injury. Again, I just think it's a bunch of malarkey and wish that veil wasn't available for some of these guys to hide behind.

[brwrsfan]

Molitor is a hypocrite. Part of the criteria for being in the HOF is 'character', and he was a douchebag coke addict.

 

Yeah, because he was the only guy in the Hall of Fame from that era who did cocaine, right?

 

Kinda like most players in this era are "probably" using some form of PED?

[RobDeer 45]

I think the "I took it to recover" admission is a way for many to partially come out and ask for forgiveness but not tell the whole story. Kind of like a politician getting caught with a woman of the night. This was the first time I've ever done this and I got caught. I don't buy that usually.

[Invader3K]

Molitor is a hypocrite. Part of the criteria for being in the HOF is 'character', and he was a douchebag coke addict.

 

Yeah, because he was the only guy in the Hall of Fame from that era who did cocaine, right?

 

Kinda like most players in this era are "probably" using some form of PED?

 

*shrug*

 

I'm of the opinion that if your stats are deserving and you aren't banned from baseball, you should be voted into the Hall of Fame regardless of whatever speculation or supposed "character issues."

 

I just hate that Molitor's cocaine use has to get brought up every time he's discussed, just like someone always has to mention "Hank Aaron took greenies" (in actuality he admitted to trying them only once in his autobiography) whenever he is brought up in relation to PEDs, etc.