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Why Scooter should NOT be platooned


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That wasn't exactly a convincing article

 

1. He fails to include that not only was Gennett terrible vs lefties in limited big league at bats, Scooter was also terrible vs lefties in his last two years in minors once he had to face more advanced pitching in both AA and AAA.

 

2. For some strange reason the writer seems to have forgotten that Weeks is and likely will remain on the roster next year. So his point about having to waste/carry an extra roster spot dedicated to being Gennett's platoon partner isn't really relevant given that unless Weeks suffers a significant injury in spring training, he's going to be on the team. The Brewers aren't going to just waive Rickie and trading him would be very difficult.

 

That's why it makes no sense to me at all to not platoon Gennett and Weeks. Gennett has shown over the last two years as he's faced more advanced pitching that lefties turn him into a powerless out machine and on the flip side that Weeks even at his worst the last two years is still significantly more productive vs lefties. This seems so obvious to me that i can't fathom how anyone could seriously be against platooning the two guys?

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That's why it makes no sense to me at all to not platoon Gennett and Weeks. Gennett has shown over the last two years as he's faced more advanced pitching that lefties turn him into a powerless out machine and on the flip side that Weeks even at his worst the last two years is still significantly more productive vs lefties. This seems so obvious to me that i can't fathom how anyone could seriously be against platooning the two guys?

I was/am a big Rickie fan but it is obvious that it is just the pure hate against Weeks for regressing so much in 2012 & 2013 from his 2009-2011 season form where he averaged .269/.357/.472. His dramatic fall off to a .222/.320/.384 in 2012 & 2013 because of...? His ankle injury in 2011? Dale Sveum leaving after 2011? His best bud Prince leaving after 2011?

 

People just want him off the team period regardless if his presence would help the team.

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I can think of several million reasons ($) that Weeks will not be going anywhere until/unless he stinks up the joint for at least half a season. He's going to be given every opportunity to keep his job, which I think is the smart move. Anyone that thinks Weeks is going to be cut or dumped has to remember that this is the organization that kept running out Jeff Suppan for starts even though that meant almost a guaranteed loss. Even if Rickie picks up where he left off last season, he will have nowhere near the same negative impact on the team.
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Come roster crunch, I can even see Gennett starting the year in AAA. Assuming Juan is not starting at first, you have Juan and Jeff as infield bench. I don't think we need three infield backup guys. Given Halton seems to be the 1st/3rd/LF/RF backup, he could make the roster over Gindl even. So that gives you ANOTHER infield backup.

 

If Juan is our starting 1st baseman, things clear up a little, but that would seem to be us waving the white flag.

 

And 5 gets you 10 that Weeks will battle his bum off and end up showing a 250ish ave / 350ish (obp) - and look OK as a lead off guy. The first six weeks will be interesting. Scooter may need to wait until 2015 to be THE MAN.

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That wasn't exactly a convincing article

 

1. He fails to include that not only was Gennett terrible vs lefties in limited big league at bats, Scooter was also terrible vs lefties in his last two years in minors once he had to face more advanced pitching in both AA and AAA.

 

2. For some strange reason the writer seems to have forgotten that Weeks is and likely will remain on the roster next year. So his point about having to waste/carry an extra roster spot dedicated to being Gennett's platoon partner isn't really relevant given that unless Weeks suffers a significant injury in spring training, he's going to be on the team. The Brewers aren't going to just waive Rickie and trading him would be very difficult.

 

That's why it makes no sense to me at all to not platoon Gennett and Weeks. Gennett has shown over the last two years as he's faced more advanced pitching that lefties turn him into a powerless out machine and on the flip side that Weeks even at his worst the last two years is still significantly more productive vs lefties. This seems so obvious to me that i can't fathom how anyone could seriously be against platooning the two guys?

 

 

Why do you and everyone else assume Weeks will remain on the roster next year? Suppan was owed more dollars and was waived in early May. Weeks' contract is a sunken cost. Besides he wasn't very good against lefties either last year. Bianchi is capable of doing what Weeks can anyway with better defense. Roenicke likes bench player with versatility. Weeks has no versatility, ergo, no role. The best point he made in the article was despite struggling vs. lefties in limited AB's last year, he still put up good overall numbers and was likely to improve toward the mean splits. He did address his most recent minors years saying they were close to the mean. This is such a right hand dominant team that they can afford to bat a guy like Gennett in the 8 hole against lefties and let him work on getting better, especially if playing everyday actually increases his production against RHP. As I said before, he can always give Bianchi the occasional start too as he will need to be kept fresh.

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That's why it makes no sense to me at all to not platoon Gennett and Weeks. Gennett has shown over the last two years as he's faced more advanced pitching that lefties turn him into a powerless out machine and on the flip side that Weeks even at his worst the last two years is still significantly more productive vs lefties. This seems so obvious to me that i can't fathom how anyone could seriously be against platooning the two guys?

I was/am a big Rickie fan but it is obvious that it is just the pure hate against Weeks for regressing so much in 2012 & 2013 from his 2009-2011 season form where he averaged .269/.357/.472. His dramatic fall off to a .222/.320/.384 in 2012 & 2013 because of...? His ankle injury in 2011? Dale Sveum leaving after 2011? His best bud Prince leaving after 2011?

 

People just want him off the team period regardless if his presence would help the team.

 

 

His presence hurt the team in 2013. They were better after he got hurt. There's little hope that after coming off another serious injury that he's going to reverse his slide and actually help the team.

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Why do you and everyone else assume Weeks will remain on the roster next year? Suppan was owed more dollars and was waived in early May.

the brewers released suppan 7 june 2010, not early may.

 

Seriously?

 

 

 

Anyway, Weeks never lived up to his hype, and has been horrible the past two years. Scooter provides at the very least, the chance to get rid of the black hole at 2B defensively, and the constant disappointment of Weeks at bat.

 

The Weeks situation needs to be taken care of, but I fear he will have a bigger role on this team than he deserves because he is Rickie Weeks.

 

I don't view the platoon as an obvious situation, given how bad he is at the plate and in the field. Part of last season was an absolute train wreck where Rickie was involved. It's time to move on, as painful as that may be for some of you to accept.

"I'm sick of runnin' from these wimps!" Ajax - The WARRIORS
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If Rickie Weeks is on the roster on opening day, then he's going to get some starts at 2B against left-handed pitching. Gennett isn't going to play every day and it only makes sense to give him days off against lefties when you have a right-handed bat on the bench. If Weeks is on the bench, he's going to get some starts, just like Bianchi, Schafer, etc., and it's likely to be against lefties. It will be a light platoon at the very least.

 

This article seems like a passive-aggressive argument against Weeks even being on the roster. You want to treat Weeks as a sunk cost and move him, I'm on board with that argument. But, to me, the idea that Gennett won't be "that bad" against lefties is a weak argument to that point. Gennett is likely to be worse than Weeks against lefties and if the goal is to win in 2014, then getting Weeks starts vs. lefties makes sense.

 

Heck, even if you want to eat some of the contract and move Weeks, it's not going to happen until teams see how he plays in Spring Training. Even if the Brewers are going to shop him heavily, they're going to keep the platoon idea around simply as leverage.

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Perhaps I'm misreading the article, but I didn't see it as claiming "Gennett can't be as bad against lefties as he was last year, so a platoon is out of the question."

 

It seemed more like the idea was that EVERY LEFTY is bad against lefties, and, given Gennett's age and the other options, the team has a long term interest in seeing what the whole package looks like. A platoon doesn't allow that to happen.

 

Reasonable minds can differ, but I agree. I would like to see what Gennett looks like as a long term option at 2B. Him only hitting against righties doesn't accomplish that.

 

In other words, I think the author is right to start the argument with Scooter. The decision should be based on what the organization sees in him. If they see him as the 2B down the road, then they commit to him this year. Maybe Weeks still makes the roster. Maybe he doesn't. But I think the article presents some good reasons in favor of viewing Scooter as the every day 2B in Spring. I suppose that wouldn't preclude a "light platoon" but it would mean conceding that SG needs at least some AB's against LHP.

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Perhaps I'm misreading the article, but I didn't see it as claiming "Gennett can't be as bad against lefties as he was last year, so a platoon is out of the question."

 

It seemed more like the idea was that EVERY LEFTY is bad against lefties, and, given Gennett's age and the other options, the team has a long term interest in seeing what the whole package looks like. A platoon doesn't allow that to happen.

 

Reasonable minds can differ, but I agree. I would like to see what Gennett looks like as a long term option at 2B. Him only hitting against righties doesn't accomplish that.

 

In other words, I think the author is right to start the argument with Scooter. The decision should be based on what the organization sees in him. If they see him as the 2B down the road, then they commit to him this year. Maybe Weeks still makes the roster. Maybe he doesn't. But I think the article presents some good reasons in favor of viewing Scooter as the every day 2B in Spring. I suppose that wouldn't preclude a "light platoon" but it would mean conceding that SG needs at least some AB's against LHP.

 

I wouldn't disagree that not platooning Scooter just to get him more PT is a bad idea but once he becomes an "established veteran" he's almost certainly going to have to be platooned anyway. If Scooter reaches the top of his ceiling, just based on the fact he's a lefty hitter, his vs lefty numbers are not going to be starter worthy.

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Perhaps I'm misreading the article, but I didn't see it as claiming "Gennett can't be as bad against lefties as he was last year, so a platoon is out of the question."

 

It seemed more like the idea was that EVERY LEFTY is bad against lefties, and, given Gennett's age and the other options, the team has a long term interest in seeing what the whole package looks like. A platoon doesn't allow that to happen.

 

Reasonable minds can differ, but I agree. I would like to see what Gennett looks like as a long term option at 2B. Him only hitting against righties doesn't accomplish that.

 

I also agree with that. I have been saying that for years with Gomez when they would platoon him all the time. You are not helping him or your cause by platooning him. It works if you are platooning a player with no interest in the players long term success but if you are trying to build that player to be a long term option, why would you limit his playing time with a guy who won't be on the team past 2014?

 

In addition, I am a believer that seeing the best pitchers (including lefties) will help the career development of a player. If you see top pitching, to me, it makes the lesser pitchers easier to face. If you see Verlander, Kershaw, Darvish, Lee, then see the Suppan, Bush, Looper types, my perspective is vs the latter, it will make spotting mistakes a lot easier. Mistakes by top pitchers are few and far between, but from lesser pitchers are more frequent. Mistake pitches are were hitters need to learn how to capitalize. (And you don't learn that from sitting on the bench.)

 

So to me, allow Scooter to continue to refine his skill and let him play a ton.

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Perhaps I'm misreading the article, but I didn't see it as claiming "Gennett can't be as bad against lefties as he was last year, so a platoon is out of the question."

 

It seemed more like the idea was that EVERY LEFTY is bad against lefties, and, given Gennett's age and the other options, the team has a long term interest in seeing what the whole package looks like. A platoon doesn't allow that to happen.

 

Reasonable minds can differ, but I agree. I would like to see what Gennett looks like as a long term option at 2B. Him only hitting against righties doesn't accomplish that.

 

In other words, I think the author is right to start the argument with Scooter. The decision should be based on what the organization sees in him. If they see him as the 2B down the road, then they commit to him this year. Maybe Weeks still makes the roster. Maybe he doesn't. But I think the article presents some good reasons in favor of viewing Scooter as the every day 2B in Spring. I suppose that wouldn't preclude a "light platoon" but it would mean conceding that SG needs at least some AB's against LHP.

It's true that most lefthanded batters hit worse vs lefthanded pitchers, but there is a difference between being just worse vs lefties and being flat out horrible vs lefties as Gennett is. These are his numbers vs lefties in AA and AAA.

 

2013 vs lefties-- .262 OBP/.592 OPS

2012 VS lefties--.271 OBP/.607 OPS

 

That's not just struggling a bit vs lefties in AA/AAA, that's Yuni Betancourt like without the flashes of power by Yuni. Scooter was even worse than that in 39 big league at bats vs lefties where he only had 6 singles and not a single walk for a dreadful .175 OBP and .329 OPS. Granted, that's a very small sample, but when considered with how brutal Gennett hit lefties in AA/AAA, it's hard to not project that big league lefties will very likely eat him alive again this coming season, turning Scooter into a powerless out machine. So since the team isn't in some full blown rebuild mode and ready to punt on the season before it even starts, it makes no sense to me to start the season with Weeks on the bench when a lefty is on the mound given the odds are microscopic that Rickie wouldn't be significantly more productive than Gennett vs those lefties.

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I also agree with that. I have been saying that for years with Gomez when they would platoon him all the time. You are not helping him or your cause by platooning him. It works if you are platooning a player with no interest in the players long term success but if you are trying to build that player to be a long term option, why would you limit his playing time with a guy who won't be on the team past 2014?

 

In addition, I am a believer that seeing the best pitchers (including lefties) will help the career development of a player. If you see top pitching, to me, it makes the lesser pitchers easier to face. If you see Verlander, Kershaw, Darvish, Lee, then see the Suppan, Bush, Looper types, my perspective is vs the latter, it will make spotting mistakes a lot easier. Mistakes by top pitchers are few and far between, but from lesser pitchers are more frequent. Mistake pitches are were hitters need to learn how to capitalize. (And you don't learn that from sitting on the bench.)

 

So to me, allow Scooter to continue to refine his skill and let him play a ton.

 

I have no problem with platooning some players early in their big league careers if they struggle very badly vs pitchers from one side of the plate. Doing so in say a rookie season can both help the team and player by not setting up that player to fail really badly at something they currently struggle big time at, to where it can get in their head. Instead, gradually let them face lefties or righties. Teams do this all of the time with rookies who struggle terribly vs pitchers who throw lefthanded or righthanded, and it doesn't ruin that hitter's chances to improve down the road.

 

Plus, Gomez IMO is a bad example to use in trying to make your point. Using him how they did eventually lead to Carlos becoming a better than competent hitter. That along with giving up on trying to make him be a type of hitter which he simply couldn't be as a ground ball hitting slap hitter given his speed. Swinging as hard as he can ended up being the only way Gomez can be productive. Plus, he hits righthanded and most starters are righthanded. So starting Carlos only in games vs lefthanded pitchers severely limited his chance to be out there 100 plus games. Gennett on the other handed bats from the left side, so even in a pretty strict platoon, he would start around 100 games or more. That's playing a lot of games for a rookie who is far from being some can't miss type of elite prospect and if Weeks isn't productive in his role of the platoon and/or the team ends up being bad, Rickie could be removed and Gennett allowed to play everyday.

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I think overall the impact of Scooter as a LH batter vs. LH pitcher will for 1 be less impactful than Danzig is making out to being. Look, if the guy is bad against him it would mean a lot if you know he's your #1-#5 batter. But guess what? For the most part I expect him to be #7 or #8. Meaning he's being dominated 3PAs, 2 if you end up PH him the 3rd AB, ahead of the what? .100OB of a pitcher? Whoa, that's scary!(sarcasm)

 

Let's think Platoon wise, you can have Segura/Gomez 1/2 in the lineup vs LHP. And Scooter #1 or #2 vs. RHP. Maybe he improves maybe he doesn't. But Scooter's bat isn't the type you're relying on the most/2nd most/3rd most/etc on the season. You know what you're expecting out of him. It's not Power, it's not OB machine, its a decently consistent BA out of him while playing an Average 2b defensively. While paying him what? 3mil over the next 4seasons to do so.

WS teams do not have All-Star Players at every position. They don't have .800OPS guys at every position who don't make the all-star game.

 

StLouis got .548! OPS overall! on...the...season! from Pete Kozma yet that didn't keep them from winning the division nor making it to the WS.

Sure, you don't want to fill your team with Kozmas but Scooter I'd think is a better batter than him. The Brewers have enough .800OPS guys to plug in your 2-5holes. I think Scooter can be managed vs LHP without being platooned the next few seasons. Just by dropping him in the batting order. Now, if this were the AL and no pitcher being batted, then yeah those numbers could be cause for concern to platoon him but again you bat him 8th ahead of the pitcher and watch as a good or poor ab vs. LHP is either wasted or not since that Pitcher is just going to K more than likely.

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You might be right, Danzig. It could be that, even with a full season split, Scooter's numbers vs. LHP are close to his minor league numbers. Those aren't good, and even a 2B can't be a centerpiece if he hits lefties like that.

 

Where we disagree, I think, is in terms of the impact it would have this season. I don't think it's "punting on the season" to say Scooter's going to get the opportunity to start every day, even (at least some and probably most of the time) against lefties. I'm with brewcrew above. The difference between Scooter hitting 8th vs. lefties and Ricky hitting, what? 6? 7? 8 also? Anyway, it's not a huge difference 2-3 times per game, and its negative impact is mitigated somewhat defensively.

 

Also, I'm not as convinced as jericho that Scooter's ceiling means he's just not going to get better vs. LHP. The 2011 numbers for SG vs LHP? .282/.325/.342. Not world beating, but pretty darn good in 150 ABs. I think, even with the old splits, it's good enough to leave some room for optimism. In '10, he was .330/.395/.455 vs. LHP in only 112 AB's. I'm not suggesting he'll put up numbers like that at this level. Only that I don't think there's enough evidence to suggest that he's always going to be terrible against lefties.

 

Again, reasonable minds can differ. But I think with a guy who's 23 the risk/reward is really advantageous in this position. I see nothing wrong with going with Scooter out of the gate, and pulling back later if he struggles. I think that gives the team a better shot at evaluating what his true skill level is and how he fits in this year and beyond. Maybe he gets better vs. LHP and really grows into the role of every day 2B. It wouldn't be the first time. If he doesn't, what did the Brewers really lose? Especially when it's likely the team will play the percentages anyway if there's a late, pressure AB.

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A tale of two identically-aged players, a.k.a. the difference two seasons can make:

 

2009-2011, fWAR per 150 G

#5. Rickie Weeks, 5.0

#6. Robinson Cano, 4.9

 

2014:

Robinson Cano: $240,000,000

Rickie Weeks: Debate by Brewers fans over whether he should even serve in a platoon

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I have said this in other posts...

 

platoon at three positions

 

1B Halton vs lefties

Green or Juan vs righties

 

2B Scooter vs righties

Weeks vs lefties

 

LF Gindl vs righties

Davis vs lefties

 

Every one has power off the bench except Scooter. Let it shake out for 1/2 half of a year and if Weeks is i a hot streak, trade him faster than fast and let Scooter play. Same with the other positions, see what you have and make adjustments. Absolutely a no lose situation (other than the $11,000,000 and knowing that you will not be in the playoffs) and you now know who can play for 2015.

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I think overall the impact of Scooter as a LH batter vs. LH pitcher will for 1 be less impactful than Danzig is making out to being. Look, if the guy is bad against him it would mean a lot if you know he's your #1-#5 batter. But guess what? For the most part I expect him to be #7 or #8. Meaning he's being dominated 3PAs, 2 if you end up PH him the 3rd AB, ahead of the what? .100OB of a pitcher? Whoa, that's scary!(sarcasm)

 

Let's think Platoon wise, you can have Segura/Gomez 1/2 in the lineup vs LHP. And Scooter #1 or #2 vs. RHP. Maybe he improves maybe he doesn't. But Scooter's bat isn't the type you're relying on the most/2nd most/3rd most/etc on the season. You know what you're expecting out of him. It's not Power, it's not OB machine, its a decently consistent BA out of him while playing an Average 2b defensively. While paying him what? 3mil over the next 4seasons to do so.

WS teams do not have All-Star Players at every position. They don't have .800OPS guys at every position who don't make the all-star game.

 

StLouis got .548! OPS overall! on...the...season! from Pete Kozma yet that didn't keep them from winning the division nor making it to the WS.

Sure, you don't want to fill your team with Kozmas but Scooter I'd think is a better batter than him. The Brewers have enough .800OPS guys to plug in your 2-5holes. I think Scooter can be managed vs LHP without being platooned the next few seasons. Just by dropping him in the batting order. Now, if this were the AL and no pitcher being batted, then yeah those numbers could be cause for concern to platoon him but again you bat him 8th ahead of the pitcher and watch as a good or poor ab vs. LHP is either wasted or not since that Pitcher is just going to K more than likely.

Just because leaving Gennett in to flail around miserably vs lefties wouldn't technically kill the offense by himself, that doesn't also mean it makes sense to have him be a powerless out machine vs lefties when a significantly better solution is sitting right there on the bench. It's simply maximizing the available talent on your roster, as other teams around the league do. This isn't some radical new idea i'm proposing here.

 

By your logic, it would make sense to let a LOOGY reliever pitch as much against righthanded batters as lefties, even though righthanded hitters crush that guy because that alone won't cause a team to lose a bunch more games.

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By your logic, it would make sense to let a LOOGY reliever pitch as much against righthanded batters as lefties, even though righthanded hitters crush that guy because that alone won't cause a team to lose a bunch more games.

 

No not even close in my logic. My logic in your ideal would be to allow a LOOGY to pitch vs Righties if it were Lefty,Righty,Lefty, Lefty in a batting lineup. Or, Lefty, Lefty, Righty, Lefty.

 

If you're batting Scooter 8th ahead of a Pitcher few things come to mind.

I did the Pitchers batting numbers last season. .141BA and a .151OB with another .129 of PAs finishing in sacrifices.

We know Scooter isn't a guy to rely on beyond 10HRs in a season. And based on his Minors numbers in 550PAs avg he'll have roughly 36 XBH of 152hits. Let's assume the majority of them come vs RHP. Even at Scooter .270/.330 Batting line, it comes to roughly 22% of his season avg. OB him being on 1b ahead of the pitcher. With 3% being on 3b or a HR. and 5% being standing on 2b. Requiring the Pitcher to have a hit to score him if Scooter hadn't already done so with a HR.

 

How often do you figure Gennett comes to the plate with 0outs batting 8th? The most ideal situation for him to get on base, maybe see the Pitcher move him in to scoring position and leadoff have a chance to score him?

 

If it's 1out or 2outs based on Gennett's .330OB projection 67% of the time the pitcher comes up with 2outs or Scooter ends the inning.

 

So yeah, I'm of belief that you can hide Gennett in the 8 spot vs LHP not having to platoon him. That it isn't necessary for us to keep Rickie on the team just to be Scooter's Platoon partner. What is the average number of Left Handed SPs we see vs. Right Handed starting Pitchers? Maybe 20-24%? So now we're looking around 32-38Games to honestly be concerned about this? And again with 3PAs in those games?

So pretty much 96-114PAs on the season as a LH Bat batting 8th vs a LH SP?

 

I just don't see the overall impact Scooter will have playing vs LH Starters over playing Rickie.

Rickie's career line vs LH Starter: .246/.364/.431

2013: .195/.300/.327 .627OPS

2012: .224/.353/.382 .735OPS

 

I mean please explain to me the number of Wins/Losses Scooter's Bat vs. Rickie's bat will amount to on the season?

 

Btw Scooter's line vs LH Starters last season: .296/.321/.407 .728OPS

 

At 11mil vs. 525k in payroll Just move Rickie already to make space on the Roster for some kind of other position.

 

I'm trying to fathom the number of runs scored Rickie may provide over Scooter in the LH Starting games on the season....Like 3 more runs? Maybe 6runs? Maybe -1run?

And between the two in the field my guess is Rickie loses 1-3 of those runs. So to me we're talking about 3 runs maybe on the season Rickie may create more over Scooter. So maybe the difference all season long to go 83-78 or 84-77?

To me it's that insignificant.

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I'm going to add, it would be a different story if we had more every day LH bats in the lineup. But as it stands, Gennett is the only everyday LH batter on the roster with 1b providing the 2nd most LH PAs most likely moving forward. Playing Gennett vs. LH Starters doesn't make us have to bat Shafer or Juan Fran up in the batting order or have one of them bat in the 1 or 2hole. We're a RH batting team set to kill LHP.
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