Fielder to Rangers for Kinsler

[3and2Fastball]

Prince is going to hit a lot of HR's in Texas

[3and2Fastball]

Interesting take from a Rangers fan:

 

"Prince Fielder in Texas. Wow. Everything is BIGGER down here. He will love playing with the likes of Cruz, Andrus, Beltre and Ronnie Washington for sure. He will have fun, tons of fun one could say. If his bulk can handle the sun, which is no joking matter during the long summer months - which start in early May at times and go to mid-September. The bandbox in Arlington will fit him better than his new Rangers uniform, that's for sure. I just would rather not see any of his Brew Crew HR celebration antics, that really looked ridiculous in 2011..."

[logan82]

Looking over the last few years, taking age and body type into consideration it is hard to know what to expect from Fielder. He may have already started to decline.

 

I guess what I am saying is I think this trade is riskier for Texas than it is for Detroit.

[TURBO]

Interesting take from a Rangers fan:

 

"Prince Fielder in Texas. Wow. Everything is BIGGER down here. He will love playing with the likes of Cruz, Andrus, Beltre and Ronnie Washington for sure. He will have fun, tons of fun one could say. If his bulk can handle the sun, which is no joking matter during the long summer months - which start in early May at times and go to mid-September. The bandbox in Arlington will fit him better than his new Rangers uniform, that's for sure. I just would rather not see any of his Brew Crew HR celebration antics, that really looked ridiculous in 2011..."

 

If he does in Texas what he did here in Milwaukee, I'm sure this fan will change his tune...

 

I always find it funny that people judge players from other teams, but when they are on their team, it's just part of the fun! lol

 

I have to say though, had Morgan done the crap he did AGAINST us, I would have hated him as much as every other team.

[torts]

I also find it interesting that Fielder waived his no-trade clause to TEX. Probably to get away from the wife, but who knows.

 

Detroit is the bane of the Fielder's existance

[3and2Fastball]

I think Detroit, in general, was pretty disappointed in Prince. It isn't easy to find a 25-30 HR guy who hits .295 and plays 162 games a year though. The big problem was the contract and the expectations placed on Prince because of that contract. His (yet again) dismal postseason play didn't help.

 

I'm not 100% convinced that Miguel Cabrera will be as productive without Prince hitting behind him. That will be interesting to watch

[Bombers]

Here is an interesting tweet

@AdamMcCalvy: Haha. Weird. RT @BMOleniczak: Mind - blown remember this 2010 Fielder and Kinsler trade commercial? http://t.co/s42AzAQrTD

 

Funny video

[sveumrules]

Miguel Cabrera was at 337/434/604 for a 174 wRC+ in 2010 & 2011 before Prince and at 338/417/620 for a 178 wRC+ in 2012 & 2013 with Prince.

[Warning Track Power]

Honestly, I would have been curious if the Tigers would have done:

 

Aramis Ramirez and Rickie Weeks

for

Prince Fielder, $30 million

 

Not arguing about whether or not this makes the Brewers better or worse. Rather, I am curious if the Tigers would have preferred sticking Miggy at 1B, Ramirez at 3B, Rickie at 2B and allow Castellanos another season to develop at 3B. For a team built to win now given Scherzer's & V-Mart's impending FA after 2014, I guess it boils down to are Aramis and Rickie better than Castellanos and Kinsler in 2014?

 

I would say yes.

[TURBO]

Weeks and Ramirez better than Kinsler and Castellanos???

 

Seriously, I don't think it is even close. We have seen what Weeks brings to the table at this point in his career, and would probably give him away for nothing. Ramirez when healthy is great, but what if he has another year like last year? Both of those players are a major risk for a team on the brink of another world series appearance.

 

I'd take Kinsler and the rookie every time over Weeks and Ramirez. Not even close in my book.

[Warning Track Power]

Weeks and Ramirez better than Kinsler and Castellanos???

 

Seriously, I don't think it is even close. We have seen what Weeks brings to the table at this point in his career, and would probably give him away for nothing. Ramirez when healthy is great, but what if he has another year like last year? Both of those players are a major risk for a team on the brink of another world series appearance.

 

I'd take Kinsler and the rookie every time over Weeks and Ramirez. Not even close in my book.

It's a game of what if. What if the rookie isn't ready to contribute to a World Series contender? What is their fallback option at 3B? What if Ramirez is healthy and returns to his 2011-2012 average of .303/.361/.525, 26 HR 99 RBI line?

 

I am not saying Castellanos will fail, however, with a team built to win in 2014, I would prefer to have Aramis at 3B rather than a rookie, even a rookie with Castellanos limitless potential. While Weeks is definitely a downgrade at 2B from Kinsler, I don't think it's so significant to overlook what a healthy Ramirez could do for that lineup.

[torts]

Weeks and Ramirez better than Kinsler and Castellanos???

 

Seriously, I don't think it is even close. We have seen what Weeks brings to the table at this point in his career, and would probably give him away for nothing. Ramirez when healthy is great, but what if he has another year like last year? Both of those players are a major risk for a team on the brink of another world series appearance.

 

I'd take Kinsler and the rookie every time over Weeks and Ramirez. Not even close in my book.

It's a game of what if. What if the rookie isn't ready to contribute to a World Series contender? What is their fallback option at 3B? What if Ramirez is healthy and returns to his 2011-2012 average of .303/.361/.525, 26 HR 99 RBI line?

 

I am not saying Castellanos will fail, however, with a team built to win in 2014, I would prefer to have Aramis at 3B rather than a rookie, even a rookie with Castellanos limitless potential. While Weeks is definitely a downgrade at 2B from Kinsler, I don't think it's so significant to overlook what a healthy Ramirez could do for that lineup.

 

uh, difference is not about production, difference is Castellanos and Kinsler are locked up with team control for years, Weeks and Ramirez are free agents after 2014. so while maybe Castellanos and Kinsler arent as good next year as weeks/rami (yeah, right), they have 2015, 16 and 17 to be much better than Weeks and Rami.

[logan82]

Kinsler and Costellanos bring better defense than Weeks and Ramirez. That probably more than offsets and possible difference in offense.

[Warning Track Power]

uh, difference is not about production, difference is Castellanos and Kinsler are locked up with team control for years, Weeks and Ramirez are free agents after 2014. so while maybe Castellanos and Kinsler arent as good next year as weeks/rami (yeah, right), they have 2015, 16 and 17 to be much better than Weeks and Rami.

I haven't seen anything about Kinsler's team control being the reason for the deal. The size of his deal versus Prince's...yes. But not team control. It was about moving Fielder's massive contract in order to try and re-sign Scherzer and Cabrera. Castellanos is under team control regardless of who they traded for, so that point is irrelevant. Trading for Ramirez and Weeks instead of Kinsler would have done three things for the Tigers.

 

1. Allow Ramirez to play 3B this season, giving the team a reliable 3B for a World Series contender rather than a rookie. Aramis is in fact mentioned in this article as a possible target for Detroit even after the Fielder-Kinsler deal:http://www.freep.com/article/20131121/SPORTS02/311210104/

2. Castellanos is still in the system. He can come in 2015 at 3B when Ramirez, V-Mart and Weeks are allowed to become FAs because...

3. The Tigers need the salary flexibility in order to re-sign Scherzer and Cabrera after 2014 and 2015. That was being continually mentioned as the reason they needed to deal Prince and his contract. Having Kinsler locked up long term is a blessing and a curse for the Tigers given the financial flexibility they will need to re-sign Scherzer and Cabrera. Kinsler's deal was simply more palatable than Prince's when the Tigers begin negotiations to re-sign these two.

[monty57]

If the Tigers wanted Ramirez, they could trade Castellanos for Ramirez + cash right now, and they'd still have Kinsler instead of Weeks.

 

I really wish they would make that deal. I'd throw in Weeks for free, but the Tigers wouldn't take him.

[SRB]

I posted this during the postseason --

 

Keep in mind that the difference in [Fielder's] counting stats between 2012 & 2013 is just 5 HRs, 8 H, & 10 BB (& 22 PA). Honestly, you have to factor in going from 17 HBP to 9 this season as well. Over his last 40 games this regular season, he OPS'd .957 & only went hitless 8 times.

 

In short, I think it's a little early to declare that [his power is leaving him]. A drop in HRs should have been expected, moving from Miller Park to Comerica, and I think this is most likely simply a case of a not-as-good season combined with bad luck. Fielder looks like (in terms of 'the eye test') he's in as good of shape as he ever was with the Brewers, so it's pretty hard for me to think he's all of a sudden physically declining at 29. He probably won't age well, but I think this is more an aberration than beginning of a trend.

 

I don't disagree that Fielder's contract was a huge overpay (most FA contracts are), but I also think it's easy to look at an .819 OPS & a bad postseason & come to (imo) a premature conclusion that Fielder's already on the decline.

I don't disagree that last season was probably a down-year that he will rebound from, but if he was a free agent coming off an .819 OPS season (and remember, he is a 1B/DH with poor defense...) would you give him a $100M+ contract?? I think what's misleading about your comparison is that he wasn't that elite in 2012 either. I don't think he's been the type of player worth that kind of mega-deal since 2009. And given his age it's doubtful he's on the upward trajectory of his career.

 

For what it's worth his BABIP last season was above his career average, so he wasn't just getting unlucky in that way. The bigger problem is that his BB% has been dropping every year for the last four years.

[brewcrewdue80]

I posted this during the postseason --

 

Keep in mind that the difference in [Fielder's] counting stats between 2012 & 2013 is just 5 HRs, 8 H, & 10 BB (& 22 PA). Honestly, you have to factor in going from 17 HBP to 9 this season as well. Over his last 40 games this regular season, he OPS'd .957 & only went hitless 8 times.

 

In short, I think it's a little early to declare that [his power is leaving him]. A drop in HRs should have been expected, moving from Miller Park to Comerica, and I think this is most likely simply a case of a not-as-good season combined with bad luck. Fielder looks like (in terms of 'the eye test') he's in as good of shape as he ever was with the Brewers, so it's pretty hard for me to think he's all of a sudden physically declining at 29. He probably won't age well, but I think this is more an aberration than beginning of a trend.

 

I don't disagree that Fielder's contract was a huge overpay (most FA contracts are), but I also think it's easy to look at an .819 OPS & a bad postseason & come to (imo) a premature conclusion that Fielder's already on the decline.

I don't disagree that last season was probably a down-year that he will rebound from, but if he was a free agent coming off an .819 OPS season (and remember, he is a 1B/DH with poor defense...) would you give him a $100M+ contract?? I think what's misleading about your comparison is that he wasn't that elite in 2012 either. I don't think he's been the type of player worth that kind of mega-deal since 2009. And given his age it's doubtful he's on the upward trajectory of his career.

 

For what it's worth his BABIP last season was above his career average, so he wasn't just getting unlucky in that way. The bigger problem is that his BB% has been dropping every year for the last four years.

 

Would I give Prince that 100M Contract to play 1b? Probably yes if I'm not a bottom 12 Market and never thinking twice about it. 161games a year of what? .362OB?+ With Maybe Lightning to hit 50HR potential? I mean look at where these contracts are at?

James Loney is projected at 2yrs/16mil to play a .760OPS 1b. This year being the first year over .760OPS in 7seasons! Now if you make it 7 years that's 56mil to be a sub .760OPS 1b. Only 44mil more to reach 100mil to have Prince. A man who's never OPS'd under .760 in his career.

 

Now, James Loney's OPS the previous 7years: .778, .574, .646, .630, .755, .723, .756

This is a man the same age as Prince who couldn't OPS .700 in his Prime 26,27,28aged seasons. But found his bat again this year massive improvement vs the prior 3years.

 

Why is it because Prince OPS'd .819 from his typical .900+ self he is clearly on the decline from here on out? 1 poor season by the numbers and he's never going to be the Prince of old...That .800s OPS should be his norm from here on out?

 

I have the feeling Prince will OPS .960+ for Texas this year. Hitters ballpark. He'll be walked more again being the big bat on Texas to have to avoid so, .400OB vs the .362 this season. Players have down years. Sometimes it can be in the case of nagging injuries not disclosed(1 thing to wonder with Prince and his ongoing streak of consecutive games started) Look at Pujols. What the nagging injuries he has, have done to his numbers at the plate.

 

Prince's BA over the last 3 seasons is still above his career avg. His Ks this year are still below what he K'd at 4 years ago at Prime age 26season. The warning signs aren't there of a player you fear in sudden decline.

I'd agree with him being in decline if say he K'd 140+ times this season higher than any season in his career but no. Until that happens, Prince is worth what he's owed....Well at least a 100Million type contract for 7years.

[TooLiveBrew]

I posted this during the postseason --

 

Keep in mind that the difference in [Fielder's] counting stats between 2012 & 2013 is just 5 HRs, 8 H, & 10 BB (& 22 PA). Honestly, you have to factor in going from 17 HBP to 9 this season as well. Over his last 40 games this regular season, he OPS'd .957 & only went hitless 8 times.

 

In short, I think it's a little early to declare that [his power is leaving him]. A drop in HRs should have been expected, moving from Miller Park to Comerica, and I think this is most likely simply a case of a not-as-good season combined with bad luck. Fielder looks like (in terms of 'the eye test') he's in as good of shape as he ever was with the Brewers, so it's pretty hard for me to think he's all of a sudden physically declining at 29. He probably won't age well, but I think this is more an aberration than beginning of a trend.

 

I don't disagree that Fielder's contract was a huge overpay (most FA contracts are), but I also think it's easy to look at an .819 OPS & a bad postseason & come to (imo) a premature conclusion that Fielder's already on the decline.

I don't disagree that last season was probably a down-year that he will rebound from, but if he was a free agent coming off an .819 OPS season (and remember, he is a 1B/DH with poor defense...) would you give him a $100M+ contract?? I think what's misleading about your comparison is that he wasn't that elite in 2012 either. I don't think he's been the type of player worth that kind of mega-deal since 2009. And given his age it's doubtful he's on the upward trajectory of his career.

 

For what it's worth his BABIP last season was above his career average, so he wasn't just getting unlucky in that way. The bigger problem is that his BB% has been dropping every year for the last four years.

I wouldn't have given the .900 OPS Prince Fielder the contract he got from the Tigers, given his age & body type.

[StearnsFTW]

I don't understand the Rangers at all. Really bad deal for them IMO. 7/138 for Fielder is not a good contract to have, let alone giving up Kinsler for him. Kinsler isn't a great bargain either, but if they wanted to deal him, they could've gotten something of value. Maybe not a lot of value, but he's not a net negative.

 

I wouldn't take Fielder at that price for free. Wouldn't even consider it.

[brewcrewdue80]

I don't understand the Rangers at all. Really bad deal for them IMO. 7/138 for Fielder is not a good contract to have, let alone giving up Kinsler for him. Kinsler isn't a great bargain either, but if they wanted to deal him, they could've gotten something of value. Maybe not a lot of value, but he's not a net negative.

 

I wouldn't take Fielder at that price for free. Wouldn't even consider it.

 

Texas was really staring at a problem not only for their DH/1b but for a #4/5 power hitter in their lineup. No more Lance Berkman to try to turn to. Nelson Cruz has to be a tough signing as you're essentially saying to your fan base we accept/support cheaters of baseball. So then Texas is left with aging Beltre and a questionable Mitch Moreland(of .232/.299/.437) for batters who hit over 15HRs last season on their team. For the far superior middle infield tandem of Profar/Andrus, those two won't combine for 15HRs and questionable if they even .725OPS. And that is what Texas is filled with Maybe .750 at best Batters surrounding Beltre. Prince and all 162 games of his .900 expected OPS self is a must have for them. And whether that is at 1b or DH either or, they needed to fill that spot in the lineup long term with someone who is capable of .800+OPS to bat behind Beltre.

 

Other aspects is the idea of Kinsler in the OF or playing 1b to accomodate Profar. Maybe Kinsler like Khris Davis just shown a poor ability to do it? Maybe he told them to shove it after awhile on the idea.

 

I just don't get how this is an awful deal for Texas when they have zero long term solutions for 1b/DH aside from as mentioned above, Moreland and his .299OB/.736OPS to protect Beltre in the lineup? Or Alex Rios to protect Beltre in that lineup. Neither aren't great options. Prince fills it and at the same time likely secures Texas their #4 batter for the next 5 seasons. Again something they were staring at with nobody who projects to join their team anytime soon.

 

Wouldn't it be sad for Texas to live in a Hitters ballpark for HRs and fill their lineup with batters who don't have power? May as well move the fences back 40feet to actually fit their Home Team and not fit the majority of their Opponents Lineups? Prince changes that....Also just think the state of that lineup if Beltre pulled an 2013 ARam next season?

[The stache]

Interesting take from a Rangers fan:

I just would rather not see any of his Brew Crew HR celebration antics, that really looked ridiculous in 2011..."

 

Yes, because the claw and antler displays the Ranger players flashed every time they farted on the way to the World Series was totally cool.

[StearnsFTW]

I don't understand the Rangers at all. Really bad deal for them IMO. 7/138 for Fielder is not a good contract to have, let alone giving up Kinsler for him. Kinsler isn't a great bargain either, but if they wanted to deal him, they could've gotten something of value. Maybe not a lot of value, but he's not a net negative.

 

I wouldn't take Fielder at that price for free. Wouldn't even consider it.

 

Texas was really staring at a problem not only for their DH/1b but for a #4/5 power hitter in their lineup. No more Lance Berkman to try to turn to. Nelson Cruz has to be a tough signing as you're essentially saying to your fan base we accept/support cheaters of baseball. So then Texas is left with aging Beltre and a questionable Mitch Moreland(of .232/.299/.437) for batters who hit over 15HRs last season on their team. For the far superior middle infield tandem of Profar/Andrus, those two won't combine for 15HRs and questionable if they even .725OPS. And that is what Texas is filled with Maybe .750 at best Batters surrounding Beltre. Prince and all 162 games of his .900 expected OPS self is a must have for them. And whether that is at 1b or DH either or, they needed to fill that spot in the lineup long term with someone who is capable of .800+OPS to bat behind Beltre.

 

Other aspects is the idea of Kinsler in the OF or playing 1b to accomodate Profar. Maybe Kinsler like Khris Davis just shown a poor ability to do it? Maybe he told them to shove it after awhile on the idea.

 

I just don't get how this is an awful deal for Texas when they have zero long term solutions for 1b/DH aside from as mentioned above, Moreland and his .299OB/.736OPS to protect Beltre in the lineup? Or Alex Rios to protect Beltre in that lineup. Neither aren't great options. Prince fills it and at the same time likely secures Texas their #4 batter for the next 5 seasons. Again something they were staring at with nobody who projects to join their team anytime soon.

 

Wouldn't it be sad for Texas to live in a Hitters ballpark for HRs and fill their lineup with batters who don't have power? May as well move the fences back 40feet to actually fit their Home Team and not fit the majority of their Opponents Lineups? Prince changes that....Also just think the state of that lineup if Beltre pulled an 2013 ARam next season?

 

 

I understand your points but I would've gone in a different direction. Really any direction. Fielder's contract is that terrible to me.

[RockCoCougars]

I like this deal for the Rangers. I see Kinsler largely as a product of the Ballpark, and he also seems to be on the decline. It's not like he's cheap either- owed over $60 milllion.... add the $30 million in, and the Tigers will be paying $90 million for the 32-35 years of Ian Kinsler. Prince is younger, a much better hitter/run producer, and has only missed a few games in the past several years. Even if he is used as a DH, the numbers he puts up in Arlington should make this deal a win for the Rangers.