HOF Expansion Era Ballot

[JimH5]

http://baseballhall.org/news/press-releases/twelve-finalists-comprise-expansion-era-ballot-hall-fame-consideration-2014

 

Twelve guys are up for consideration/reconsideration on a new Hall of Fame Ballot:

 

From the HOF news release:

 

Dave Concepcion spent 19 seasons as the Cincinnati Reds shortstop, compiling a .267 average with 2,326 hits, 321 stolen bases and two Silver Slugger Awards, along five Gold Glove Awards and nine All-Star Game selections.

 

Bobby Cox ranks fourth all-time in wins among managers, compiling a 2,504-2,001 (.556) record in 29 seasons as a major league manager, winning the 1995 World Series, while capturing five National League pennants in 25 years with the Braves, also spending four years managing the Toronto Blue Jays. Led Braves to 14 straight division titles from 1991-2005 (not including strike-shortened 1994 season).

 

Steve Garvey compiled a .294 career average over 19 major league seasons with the Dodgers and Padres, amassing 2,599 hits, 272 home runs, 1,308 RBI and 10 All-Star Game selections. He hit .338 with 11 home runs and 31 RBI in 11 postseason series, was named the 1978 and 1984 NLCS MVP and won the 1981 Roberto Clemente Award. Garvey won four Gold Glove Awards and played in an N.L. record 1,207 straight games.

 

Tommy John pitched 26 seasons for the Indians, Dodgers, Yankees, Angels and A’s, finishing his career after the 1989 season with a record of 288-231 and 3.34 ERA. His 700 career starts rank eighth on the all-time list and his 4,710.1 innings rank 20th all-time.

 

Tony La Russa ranks third all-time in wins among managers, compiling a 2,728-2,365 (.536) record in 33 seasons a manager, winning three World Series (1989 Oakland, 2006 St. Louis, 2011 St. Louis) while guiding the Oakland A’s to three A.L. pennants in 10 seasons (1988-90) and the St. Louis Cardinals to three N.L. pennants in 16 years (2004, 2006, 2011). Also spent eight years managing the Chicago White Sox.

 

Billy Martin spent 16 seasons 1969, 1971-83, 1985, 1988) managing the Twins, Tigers, Rangers, Yankees (five different stints) and A’s, compiling a 1,253-1015 record (.552). Martin’s teams finished in first place five times, winning two American League pennants and one World Series with 1977 Yankees.

 

Marvin Miller was elected as the head of the Major League Baseball Players Association in 1966 and quickly turned the union into a powerhouse. Within a decade, Miller had secured free agency for the players. By the time he retired in 1982, the average player salary was approximately 10 times what it was when he took over.

 

Dave Parker compiled a .290 career average over 19 major league seasons with six teams, spending 11 years in Pittsburgh and four years in Cincinnati, amassing 339 home runs, 1,439 RBI and two batting titles (1977-78). The 1978 N.L. MVP was named to seven All-Star games and three Gold Glove Awards.

 

Dan Quisenberry recorded 244 saves in a 12-year major league career, spending 10 seasons in Kansas City, where he finished in the Top 5 in Cy Young Award voting in five different seasons, while being named to three All-Star teams, leading the league in saves five times. Posted a career 56-46 record with a 2.76 ERA in 674 relief appearances.

 

Ted Simmons played for 21 seasons, totaling a .285 batting average, 2,472 hits, 483 doubles, 248 home runs and 1,389 RBI for the Cardinals, Brewers and Braves. An eight-time All-Star, he garnered MVP votes six times in his career.

 

George Steinbrenner guided the New York Yankees franchise as principal owner after purchasing the team in 1973 to his death in 2010, with his teams winning 11 American League pennants and seven World Series titles.

 

Joe Torre won four World Series titles and six pennants in 29 seasons as a major league manager, following an 18-year major league playing career in which he compiled a career .297 batting average. As a manager, posted a 2,326-1,997 record (a .538 winning percentage), leading the Yankees to titles in 1996, 1998, 1999 and 2000 (in addition to 100-win seasons in 1998, 2002-‘04), and winning the A.L. pennant in 2001 and 2003.

 

This is an impressive group. I think I would not choose Concepcion, Quisenberry & Garvey. The others are very compelling.

[gregmag]

If George Steinbrenner goes into the Hall of Fame, I may give up on baseball altogether.

 

I hate Tony LaRussa as a human being, and I think he bears substantial blame for the steroid era, but he belongs. Cox obviously belongs; he was the best manager in the game for quite a while. Billy Martin, I think, is the managerial equivalent of Dick Allen, a guy whose borderline psychotic personality undermined a lot of his awesome talent. Allen, though, was great enough that I'd probably vote for him. Martin tended to come along, win early, burn out his pitchers while alienating everyone in sight, and leave a mess for his successors. I don't think his total package warrants a spot in the Hall.

 

I'm not overly impressed with the players on the list. Parker and Garvey aren't even as good as guys like Rice and Dawson, who I don't think belong. Quisenberry was sensational in his prime, but we're finally getting past overrating the importance of closers, and I don't think a 12-year career with 20 saves a year is anything to get excited about. I'd definitely vote for Simmons -- catchers get shafted by the Hall, and he was a great one -- and I need to look harder at John and Concepcion.

 

Miller's going to be controversial, and I get that baseball players are way overpaid, but he came along when they were indentured servants and led the way in changing the system. What we have now is ridiculous, but what we had back then was manifestly unjust.

[jerichoholicninja]

If George Steinbrenner goes into the Hall of Fame, I may give up on baseball altogether.

 

I hate Tony LaRussa as a human being, and I think he bears substantial blame for the steroid era, but he belongs.

 

George Steinbrenner spent a lot of money and won a lot of championships. Tony LaRussa is a drunk, probably played a part in the explosion of steroids in baseball, and risked the lives and careers of many players with his beanball wars.

 

I don't see how Steinbrenner getting in the Hall of Fame is such a travesty but LaRussa belongs.

[JohnBriggs12]

If George Steinbrenner goes into the Hall of Fame, I may give up on baseball altogether.

 

I hate Tony LaRussa as a human being, and I think he bears substantial blame for the steroid era, but he belongs.

 

George Steinbrenner spent a lot of money and won a lot of championships. Tony LaRussa is a drunk, probably played a part in the explosion of steroids in baseball, and risked the lives and careers of many players with his beanball wars.

 

I don't see how Steinbrenner getting in the Hall of Fame is such a travesty but LaRussa belongs.

 

Steinbrenner exploited his massive revenue advantage over virtually every other team in the game. More than any one man, he prevented baseball from matching the appeal of the NFL, where market size is merely incidental to team success, by nixing revenue sharing for local tv and radio rights. In doing so, what he really accomplished was to render less meaningful each championship he won compared to had they been won on an equal playing field. What George Halas and Wellington Mara were to the NFL, that is pioneers who forsook short term financial gain for the overall good of the league and its product, Steinbrenner was the polar opposite in baseball. Halas and Mara are rightfully in the NFL Hall of Fame. Steinbrenner doesn't deserve the same fate.

[MadScientist]

How are LaRussa and Torre eligible? Don't you have to be out of baseball for more than 5 years? If not, there should be so that consideration could be more objective.

[Invader3K]

I've long argued that Dave Parker should be in, given some of the recent inductions like Andre Dawson.

 

Ted Simmons and Steve Garvey should be in, in my opinion. I don't think the other players on that list should.

 

Marvin Miller, LaRussa, Torre and Cox should all get in. I don't think Billy Martin's career was great enough to warrant induction.

 

I would hate to see George Steinbrenner in, but he'll probably get it.

[jerichoholicninja]

If George Steinbrenner goes into the Hall of Fame, I may give up on baseball altogether.

 

I hate Tony LaRussa as a human being, and I think he bears substantial blame for the steroid era, but he belongs.

 

George Steinbrenner spent a lot of money and won a lot of championships. Tony LaRussa is a drunk, probably played a part in the explosion of steroids in baseball, and risked the lives and careers of many players with his beanball wars.

 

I don't see how Steinbrenner getting in the Hall of Fame is such a travesty but LaRussa belongs.

 

Steinbrenner exploited his massive revenue advantage over virtually every other team in the game. More than any one man, he prevented baseball from matching the appeal of the NFL, where market size is merely incidental to team success, by nixing revenue sharing for local tv and radio rights. In doing so, what he really accomplished was to render less meaningful each championship he won compared to had they been won on an equal playing field. What George Halas and Wellington Mara were to the NFL, that is pioneers who forsook short term financial gain for the overall good of the league and its product, Steinbrenner was the polar opposite in baseball. Halas and Mara are rightfully in the NFL Hall of Fame. Steinbrenner doesn't deserve the same fate.

 

I hate how George did things as much as any other Yankee-hater but he deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. He bought a crap franchise and turned it into a dynasty. Preventing MLB from growing as big as the NFL? No. You can blame the ADD, blood thirsty American public for that.

[JimH5]

I absolutely would vote for Steinbrenner. That others didn't address salary inequity isn't his fault. He had the resources and he spent them, and he turned the Yankees back into a winner. The only thing that will hinder his chance is his suspension, which could create some interesting arguments for others who have suspensions on their record.

 

Torre, LaRussa and Cox seem like locks. Marvin Miller should be in, though the politics of it will hurt his chances.

[Baldkin]

I'm not overly impressed with the players on the list. Parker and Garvey aren't even as good as guys like Rice and Dawson, who I don't think belong. Quisenberry was sensational in his prime, but we're finally getting past overrating the importance of closers, and I don't think a 12-year career with 20 saves a year is anything to get excited about. I'd definitely vote for Simmons -- catchers get shafted by the Hall, and he was a great one -- and I need to look harder at John and Concepcion.

 

I think Simmons should be a lock to get in. Also, I think you're selling Quisenberry short. He threw 1043 innings in 12 seasons. Mariano Rivera thew 1283.... in 7 more seasons. Over his 6 year peak, he averaged 121 IP per season. He wasn't a "Closer" as you know of it these days. He was one of the last true "fireman". If Suter and Gossage are good enough to get in, then Quisenberry should be in as well.

[RockCoCougars]

From this list, I'd vote for Parker and Garvey, grudgingly for LaRussa as well.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Simmons, Cox, LaRussa, Steinbrenner, and Miller.

 

Garvey is incredibly over-rated. Defensive metrics don't really like him, and a career .775 OPS for a 1B just doesn't impress. He didn't hit for a lot of power, or draw a lot of walks.

 

Parker had a better prime, but he just tailed off too quickly. He had a bit of a resurgence later on, but not quite enough for me to say he should be in the Hall.

 

I know the argument is that "Rice and Dawson = Parker".........but, I don't want the inclusion of 2 "Hall of Very Good" players to continue to be the argument that more "Hall of Very Good players should be let in.

[logan82]

Garvry's OPS+ is 117 for his career. .775 OPS was obviously good during his playing career.

[gregmag]

Okay, leaving aside my personal animus, why should Steinbrenner be in the Hall of Fame? He spent a bunch of money and won some championships. Good for him. But how is that Hall-worthy? I'm not being snarky here; I genuinely don't understand. I can't recall right now which other owners are in, so maybe that would help.

 

I'm with RoCo on not expanding the "Hall of Very Good," although I get the equitable argument on behalf of a player like Parker.

 

Baldkin, I take your point about Quisenberry, and I don't mean to knock him. I was a fan back then, and I remember how dominant he was. Still, I don't think he's close to Hall-worthy. Gossage pitched twice as long; there's really no comparison between them. Sutter, for me, shouldn't be in -- he's the poster child for overrating the importance of closers -- and I think his career pretty clearly exceeds Quisenberry's career. Relief pitchers just don't contribute as much as regulars, even when you take leverage into account. I think Quisenberry, as great as he was at his job, is the least valuable player on that list.

 

On Garvey, I agree OPS+ tells you more than raw OPS; but a 117 OPS+ for a 1b just isn't impressive. To put it in perspective, I think most people assume Keith Hernandez needed his defense to make the Hall. Hernandez's OPS+ was 128. Cecil Cooper: 121. George Scott: 114. John Mayberry: 123.

 

The 1b who I think deserves serious consideration is Fred McGriff. Longer career than anyone I've mentioned, OPS+ of 134. He was a poor defender but an insanely consistent middle-of-the-order hitter, giving him a career that I think stands right next to Hernandez and Tony Perez. In the end I think McGriff probably falls just short, but I think he's at least right up there with Dawson, Rice, and Perez.

[Invader3K]

Okay, leaving aside my personal animus, why should Steinbrenner be in the Hall of Fame? He spent a bunch of money and won some championships. Good for him. But how is that Hall-worthy? I'm not being snarky here; I genuinely don't understand. I can't recall right now which other owners are in, so maybe that would help.

 

When he took over the Yankees and bought them, the franchise was a mess. He oversaw basically two (arguably three) rebuilds of the Yankees that brought them multiple championships, etc. I hate what he did to the game in some respects, but he was unquestionably a successful owner.

[whizkid]

Steinbrenner bought the Yankees at the advent of free agency. He spent the money the big market enabled him to. That's how he revived the franchise . The franchise was down partly due to the amateur draft that started in 1965. From then to free agency was the only time the Yankees competed on a more or less level playing field. Prior to the amateur draft the Yankees could afford more scouts and the added travel to comb the countryside, pay bigger signing bonues and higher salaries due to market size.

[gregmag]

Okay, leaving aside my personal animus, why should Steinbrenner be in the Hall of Fame? He spent a bunch of money and won some championships. Good for him. But how is that Hall-worthy? I'm not being snarky here; I genuinely don't understand. I can't recall right now which other owners are in, so maybe that would help.

 

When he took over the Yankees and bought them, the franchise was a mess. He oversaw basically two (arguably three) rebuilds of the Yankees that brought them multiple championships, etc. I hate what he did to the game in some respects, but he was unquestionably a successful owner.

Fair enough, but is that kind of success something that the Hall of Fame should, or needs to, recognize? I think Whizkid is right, but let's set that aside. What does an owner have to do in order to deserve enshrinement in the Hall of Fame? The answer can't just be "win a lot." My gut sense is that an owner would have to be an innovator of some kind. Why Steinbrenner and not Charlie Finley? He built and actually ran a great team. Like Steinbrenner, he was an outsized personality. He tried some crazy innovations, most of which failed, but all of which contributed to the flavor of baseball in his era.

 

I guess I'm just resisting the idea that owners generally belong in the Hall of Fame. Of the ones that are in, I can see Walter O'Malley for his important part in making MLB a truly national sport, and Charles Comiskey helped to build the American League. But Tom Yawkey? What did he do other than fail to win in one of baseball's premier markets while keeping his team white?

[LouisEly]

In some way, shape or form, Billy Martin and George Steinbrenner deserve to be inducted into the Hall of Fame together. If the test of the Hall is, "Can you tell the history of the game without mentioning (this person)?", the answer is, no you cannot tell the history of baseball, particularly in the 70's and 80's, without mentioning Martin and Steinbrenner. Somewhere in the Hall there needs to be documentation of that relationship.

 

And you cannot tell the history of baseball without mentioning Marvin Miller and Tommy John.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Frank Jobe is more integral to baseball history than Tommy John is. Tommy John had a decent career, but he's just the lucky schmo who had the surgery named after him.

[LouisEly]

John had to agree to the experimental surgery, do the rehab, and change his mechanics afterwards. The surgery then was hardly as reliable as it is now; there was no track record of outcomes to base a decision on, and all surgery no matter how routine has risks. At the time, Jobe estimated John's chances of recovery at 1 out of 100. John also retired having tied the ML record for most seasons played (26!) and pitched the 20th most career innings and is 8th among career starts.

 

He's not the "lucky schmo" who had the surgery named after him. He's the guy who took the risk to have it, and put in the rehab work to make the surgery successful.

[Baldkin]

John had to agree to the experimental surgery, do the rehab, and change his mechanics afterwards. The surgery then was hardly as reliable as it is now; there was no track record of outcomes to base a decision on, and all surgery no matter how routine has risks. At the time, Jobe estimated John's chances of recovery at 1 out of 100. John also retired having tied the ML record for most seasons played (26!) and pitched the 20th most career innings and is 8th among career starts.

 

He's not the "lucky schmo" who had the surgery named after him. He's the guy who took the risk to have it, and put in the rehab work to make the surgery successful.

 

And for that he belongs in the Medical Patient hall of fame, not the MLB hall of fame... at least, in my opinion.

[djoctagone]

as expected, la russa, cox and torre are elected.

[craigharmann]

So with LaRussa getting in, does this mean that the doors are now open for Bonds, ARoid, Clemens and Big Mac to get into the HOF?

[1992casey]

Probably not. These selections were made by a relatively small committee. Bonds, etc. are voted on by hundreds of people.

[craigharmann]

Probably not. These selections were made by a relatively small committee. Bonds, etc. are voted on by hundreds of people.

 

 

This is true. But a precedent has been set. Under LaRussa's watch, Big Mac and Canseco juiced. Either LaRussa was clueless, which says a lot about his leadership....or lack thereof, or he knew it was going on. It's one or the other.

[Invader3K]

I really hope at some point the voters collectively just vote in anyone deserving based purely on stats and awards. None of those guys have been banned from baseball like Pete Rose was.