Pittsburgh's aggressive defensive plan paying off

[reillymcshane]

I thought this was a really interesting article about Pittsburgh's evolving philosophy with regards to defense and pitching, including the extensive use of shifts, and the value of inducing ground balls.

 

http://triblive.com/sports/pirates/4689239-74/pirates-defensive-season#axzz2f4BnFVMH

 

It was interesting to hear how the club - including their old school manager - embraced the changes (for the most part). Hurdle didn't just blow off the stat guys, but figured out how the team could benefit from it.

 

The Crew are already big into defensive shifts, so it's not like this isn't anything new. But I liked how the Pirate organization embraced the challenge from top to bottom. It appears to have helped them improve by using the assets they have, or adding players that fit their system and needs.

 

I'm sure there are a lot of other factors in Pittsburgh improved performances. But it was a pretty interesting read.

[logan82]

Hurdle is a product of 20th century baseball thought. To earn another job in the 21st century, he knew he had to embrace new-age information. He saw how the game was trending toward a greater acceptance of sabermetrics. He spent time on websites like Fangraphs.com, and he took a job as an MLB analyst where he was exposed to even more cutting-edge information.

I chuckled at this. They must really dumb things down on air if they have access to things more cutting edge than Fangraphs.

[TheCrew07]

I find the whole notion that seeking ground balls is new or a different way of looking at baseball since that's been the idea behind strong middle defense and pitching to contact as long as I can remember.

 

I wonder if sometimes people get so caught up in advanced metrics that they lose sight of the simple nuances of the game?

 

In no way do the above thoughts diminish what the Pirates have done, a few of us have consistently posted that they've been on the right track for some time now, and I'm happy they are having success, I just hope the Brewers can find enough young talent to be be competitive themselves...

[Baldkin]

Hurdle is a product of 20th century baseball thought. To earn another job in the 21st century, he knew he had to embrace new-age information. He saw how the game was trending toward a greater acceptance of sabermetrics. He spent time on websites like Fangraphs.com, and he took a job as an MLB analyst where he was exposed to even more cutting-edge information.

I chuckled at this. They must really dumb things down on air if they have access to things more cutting edge than Fangraphs.

 

I am sure that most (if not all) teams have access to data (such as Fieldf/x) that Fangraphs doesn't have access to.

[logan82]

Hurdle is a product of 20th century baseball thought. To earn another job in the 21st century, he knew he had to embrace new-age information. He saw how the game was trending toward a greater acceptance of sabermetrics. He spent time on websites like Fangraphs.com, and he took a job as an MLB analyst where he was exposed to even more cutting-edge information.

I chuckled at this. They must really dumb things down on air if they have access to things more cutting edge than Fangraphs.

 

I am sure that most (if not all) teams have access to data (such as Fieldf/x) that Fangraphs doesn't have access to.

Of course they do. I doubt most MLB analysts have access to those stats.

[fondybrewfan]

I will be curious to see how the Pirate fare in comparison to the Brewers "Glory Year" of 2011. Is this year going to be a flash in the pan or will they have sticking power. How will they fare when some of their talent starts getting really expensive, can they keep the team together for more than 1-2 years? I still seems like they might be playing above their talent level with several players probably due for a pretty steep regression (Liriano immediately comes to mind).

 

I will cheering for them this postseason but only because I would rather not see STL, CIN, or LAD in the World Series. I wouldn't mind ATL either but PIT would be the much nicer feel good story.

[Outlander]

I would compare this Pirates team more to 2008 than the 2011 Brewers. The Pirates have work to do before they are contending for a World Series bid. If I had a guess they will be one and done.

[reillymcshane]

The Pirates home runs allowed numbers are crazy. Only one guy has given up double digit HRs - Wandy Rodriguez has allowed 10 HR. The Brewers have 8 guys that have given up 10+ HR.

[homer]

Pirates pitching has been ridiculous this year. Is that due to the defense? Maybe, who knows? But I'd be really surprised if Grilli, Liriano, or Burnett have similar success two years in a row.

[reillymcshane]

Pirates pitching has been ridiculous this year. Is that due to the defense? Maybe, who knows? But I'd be really surprised if Grilli, Liriano, or Burnett have similar success two years in a row.

Grilli and Burnett have done it two years in a row.

 

Burnett in 2012: 202 IP, 3.51 ERA

Burnett in 2013: 170 IP (so far), 3.43 ERA

 

Grilli in 2012: 58 IP, 2.91 ERA

Grilli in 2013: 46 IP (so far), 2.91 ERA (30 saves compared to 2 in 2012)

[jerichoholicninja]

Just like the Brewers their future will depend on the rotation which could come crashing back to earth next year or sooner.

 

-AJ Burnett is 36 and talking retirement.

-Is the real Jeff Locke the first half pitcher (.202 BAA, 2.15 ERA, 1.128 WHIP) or the second half pitcher (.305 BAA, 5.43 ERA, 1.811 WHIP).

- Liriano is only signed for next year and has shown that for as good as he can be, he can be even worse at times. Plus he's already had one TJ.

-Wandy Rodriguez is 34 (maybe) and will probably not have his $13M option picked up.

 

Gerrit Cole has looked solid and Charlie Morton may have finally figured out how to pitch. They have Jameson Taillon who will probably be in the majors at some point next season but the rest of their young pitchers are in the low minors. They are very much like the 2008 Brewers in that after this season their rotation will be pretty bare with little to replace the guys that are leaving.

[homer]

Yeah it's not so much the fact that those pitchers are lucky, it's that they're old.

[torts]

Just like the Brewers their future will depend on the rotation which could come crashing back to earth next year or sooner.

 

-AJ Burnett is 36 and talking retirement.

-Is the real Jeff Locke the first half pitcher (.202 BAA, 2.15 ERA, 1.128 WHIP) or the second half pitcher (.305 BAA, 5.43 ERA, 1.811 WHIP).

- Liriano is only signed for next year and has shown that for as good as he can be, he can be even worse at times. Plus he's already had one TJ.

-Wandy Rodriguez is 34 (maybe) and will probably not have his $13M option picked up.

 

Gerrit Cole has looked solid and Charlie Morton may have finally figured out how to pitch. They have Jameson Taillon who will probably be in the majors at some point next season but the rest of their young pitchers are in the low minors. They are very much like the 2008 Brewers in that after this season their rotation will be pretty bare with little to replace the guys that are leaving.

 

I think AJ will be back, he wont retire and has said multiple times the only team he wants to play for next year is Pittsburgh, and I definitely think Liriano regresses next year, lets not forget he didnt start until mid May this season, so he's a month and a half behind in terms of wear and tear of a season. Wandy will be back, the Astros are paying $5 mil of that salary, so its only $8 million for the pirates to pay. Locke and Cole are ???? for next season in terms of their success since none of them have a complete MLB season under their belts and Morton has a history of injuries, so you really cant count on him for a full MLB season IMO.

 

I would not be surprised if you see Connley open the purse a tiny bit to sign someone for the rotation.

[torts]

Pirates pitching has been ridiculous this year. Is that due to the defense? Maybe, who knows? But I'd be really surprised if Grilli, Liriano, or Burnett have similar success two years in a row.

Grilli and Burnett have done it two years in a row.

 

Burnett in 2012: 202 IP, 3.51 ERA

Burnett in 2013: 170 IP (so far), 3.43 ERA

 

Grilli in 2012: 58 IP, 2.91 ERA

Grilli in 2013: 46 IP (so far), 2.91 ERA (30 saves compared to 2 in 2012)

 

he's given up 4 runs in the 4 IP since he came back this season, bringing his ERA up from 2.28 to 2.91. he hasnt looked very good at all

[homer]

I will also add that if you follow pythagorean records, the Pirates are about 7 games ahead of their predicted W/L for the year.

[TigerUppercut]

Their pitching and defense better pay off because by any measure, Cutch aside, their offense is offensive. As far as the rotation goes, it's funny how their strategy really hasn't differed much from the way the much maligned Doug Melvin has gone about building a rotation. Lots of patching going on there with a sprinkle of youth from within. I will give their youth a big edge over anything Melvin has come up with in his tenure but that should be the case when you pick in the top 5 for 20 years straight. Eventually you'll get it right.

[danzig6767]

Their pitching and defense better pay off because by any measure, Cutch aside, their offense is offensive. As far as the rotation goes, it's funny how their strategy really hasn't differed much from the way the much maligned Doug Melvin has gone about building a rotation. Lots of patching going on there with a sprinkle of youth from within. I will give their youth a big edge over anything Melvin has come up with in his tenure but that should be the case when you pick in the top 5 for 20 years straight. Eventually you'll get it right.

 

I agree. In fact, when they traded for Burnett i'm pretty sure a number of people ripped the move given the Pirates were still a bad team at the time.

 

It is pretty crazy to think it took them this long to be a playoff team when you consider just how often they've been drafting top 5-7.

[BruisedCrew]

The Pirates defense just booted away a 3 run lead in the ninth inning of their big game against the Reds.

 

Mercer threw away what should have been the last out of the game and Alvarez failed to come up with a grounder that allowed the 2 tying runs to score.

[reillymcshane]

Interesting article by Dave Cameron at FanGraphs about the Pirates success:

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/how-the-pirates-built-a-playoff-team/

[torts]

I just want to point something out that back in March Clint Hurdle was quoted by the pittsburgh media that this pirates team will win 95 games this year. he was basically laughed at by everyone with that notion... yet here we are, 6 games from the end of the season with 92 wins. amazing

[TigerUppercut]

I just want to point something out that back in March Clint Hurdle was quoted by the pittsburgh media that this pirates team will win 95 games this year. he was basically laughed at by everyone with that notion... yet here we are, 6 games from the end of the season with 92 wins. amazing

 

Fair, but what type of reaction do you expect a manager who's had 9 losing seasons in the 10 he's managed (coming into the year) to get making those type of proclamations about a team that's lost for 22 consecutive seasons? At that point, you take an "l'll believe it when I see it" approach.