Milwaukee Bucks Thread 2009–2010 (part 2)

[trwi7]

That wasn't me who compiled that. That was an Australian Bucks fan who posts on realgm. I'll send him the thanks. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[RockCoCougars]

"The Knicks almost traded Gallinari and Lee for Sessions. That's how much value he had to some teams."

 

I have a tough time believing that. That said, the Yankees and Red Sox G.M.'s once almost traded Ted Williams for Joe Di'Maggio. Then they sobered up. Maybe the Knicks GM was drinking at the time, or was Isaiah involved which actually makes it somewhat believable.

[Gobias Industries]

So you think Hammond was banking on Redd blowing out his ACL again? A big reason he's got value because he's a insurance covered expiring. Otherwise you clear the contract as soon as you can. It's no coincidence that the Bucks turned it on when Redd was out. Horrible team player. And my god, every contract is an expiring at some point. I don't see that argument at all.

 

As for RJ and Raef. Once again, insurance covered. 80% paid, only responsible for the rest. RJ had a huge salary. Clearing him a half season earlier would have saved a lot of coin.

 

So because he nailed his second rounder it's alright he whiffed big time on his lotto pick? You need to get a rotation player at the very least. Very deep draft. Augustin, the Lopez twins, A Randolph, Bayless, Jason Thompson, Hibbert, Speights, McGee, Hickson, Courtney Lee, Batum, etc were all picked after him. Blowing lotto picks is devastating for a franchise. Also, you could have been part of the Salmons trade if your salary would have matched it. We're gonna applaud him for blowing lotto picks now?

 

Re: Elson and Allen. Yes, giving multiple yr deals to scrubs (bell, gadz, gooden,etc) is franchise crippling. Not sure why you have that in blue font there. Maybe you're one of the guys who says, "hey, it's not my money!" Those were still mistakes and both guys hurt the team every second they were on the floor.

 

Re: Stoudamire: Anytime you can pay a player to play 0 games for you, you have to do it! That was such a stupid signing it had to be mentioned.

 

Re: Conley/1st rumor: That was posted by many newspaper sources (Woelfel) probably right around January or Feb of 2009. JA was also in the proposed deal.

 

As for the insider rumors those were reported by a very reputable source at realGM. He went over it in detail a few months back. That was hardly Hammonds fault, but when your that close to a heist it's tough to not get it done. The Bucks thought they had Lee and Gallinari. The knicks loved Sessions. he would have put up huge numbers in D'Antoni ball.

 

I know certain posters like to bag on realGM for some reason, but it's the best site on the internet for Bucks info. No question about it. You just gotta read the right posts.

[gobrew23]

Redd's contract is currently an asset because he got hurt. And his contract is so big, that it makes it difficult to match salary. It's not as big of an asset as you think.

Hammond isn't the one who signed Redd to the contract and couldn't possibly know that Redd was going to have knee problems. My only point was that I don't think Hammond has somehow butchered the Redd situation. Could he have traded him earlier? Yes. But, I don't have a problem with the Bucks either trading him for something now, or letting it expire and giving more payroll options.

 

He's the second player in NBA history to have his first team option on his rookie contract declined. LOL for not thinking that's not one of the biggest busts of the decade.

Sorry, but I still don't. You're trying to tell me that because he had is option declined that he is a bigger bust than Darko Milicic who has produced next to nothing and was drafted directly ahead of Carmelo Anthony, Chris Bosh and Dwyane Wade.

 

Do I wish we would have drafted someone else? Yes, but Hammond realized it was a mistake and didn't pick up the option, saving the team money.

 

Nailing a lottery pick >>>>>>>>>>>>>> than nailing a 2nd rounder. The Bucks for the most part have been blowing lottery picks and nailing 2nd rounders for the last two decades and it's gotten them where exactly?

 

I don't understand what bringing up the last two decades has to do with anything. The entire time my points have been about how I think Hammond has been doing a good job. Again, he messed up the JA pick.

 

Horrible logic.

 

1. Alexander was so bad that he had his first team option declined making him an expiring.

 

2. Any expiring contracts we had would've done the trick for Salmons. It wasn't some special talent that he had that made the Bulls want him.

I agree.

 

Spending like that adds up. Would you rather have $4.7 million or end of bench scrubs? I think I'll take the money.

 

Same in regards to Stoudemire. Sure, it was "only" $100,000 or so, but why even sign him in the first place? To maybe be the 15th man on the roster?

 

You need to fill a roster. If one of the biggest complaints about Hammond is that he spends a couple hundred thousand too much on the back end of the roster, then I think he's doing a fine job.

 

Do you have a source to confirm this?

 

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2009/jan/15/deal-or-no-deal/

 

Gobias said Conley and a 1st. This link says Mike Conley to the Milwaukee Bucks, for guard Ramon Sessions and swingman Joe Alexander. At the time, no that would not have been a trade I would have wanted.

 

You serious? Sessions got a 4 year $16,444,586 contract. We paid Ridnour $6.5 million to be the backup next year. Sessions is going to be making less than $4 million next year. That's perfectly fine for a good, young backup PG. We're either going to be paying our backup PG around that much or even more or we're going to be paying a much, much worse PG less than that to be the backup.

 

CV, I understand why they didn't match that, but then Hammond goes out and gives a CV type contract ($5.7 million less total, same amount of years) to CV's big brother.

 

Sessions averaged 8.2 ppg and 3.2 apg last season in 21 minutes. He plays ZERO defense, even when Skiles had him he never played D. I would much rather have Ridnour for one season than have Sessions for 4 seasons. We'll have to see what the plans are for the backup PG going forward, but Ridnour was great last season.

 

CV is not even close to Gooden in my opinion. I'd take Gooden 10 times out of 10.

 

Apparently you and I have different opinions on Hammond, and that's fine, but I don't see how people can claim that he has made all of these bad moves when he took over a terrible team in salary hell and has quickly turned them into a 46 win team with a bright future.

[Baldkin]

I know certain posters like to bag on realGM for some reason, but it's the best site on the internet for Bucks info. No question about it. You just gotta read the right posts.

That's why. There's so much horrible stuff posted there, it's tough to find the good stuff.... especially as someone who doesn't frequent the boards on a daily basis.

[tigerbrew]

Like others, I much prefer to have both Gooden and Salmons on 3 year deals too. Gooden will be 29 and Salmons will be 31 this coming season, giving them 5 year deals is too long and risky.

 

I do like the Maggette and CDR trades, and I'm happy that Salmons is returning. Frankly I don't mind getting Gooden, we do need a decent veteran big to backup Bogut and Gooden is decent, the good FA bigs are way out of our price range. We now have a deep and talented PF and C rotation, I do hope Skiles continue to give Moute and Ersan 20 minutes per game each. I think Gallon could be headed for the D League for some seasoning.

 

I think Ridnour is likely gone. I really hope Hobson steps up in Summer League and show that he can play PG decently, I think he has the skills to do so. Big point guards do exist in the NBA such as his idol Penny Hardaway. With his length, he could have an offensive and defensive advantage over smaller PGs.

 

Our current roster:

PG: Jennings / Hobson / 3rd PG

SG: Salmons / Delfino / CDR

SF: Moute / Maggette / Delfino

PF: Gooden / Ersan / Moute

C: Bogut / Gooden / Sanders

 

We have more offensive options and a deeper bench from than last season, and if our defense holds up we could be a force to reckon with in the East. Really hope Skiles can get the team to play good defense like last season.

[yoshii8]

In agree that the RealGM board has some good stuff, but the overall "sky is falling" menatility from a lot of posters is frustrating to read sometimes.

 

So Gobias and Twirl, overall how would you rate the job Hammond has done in his first couple seasons? I disagree w/ some of the decisions he's made, but overall I feel he has been one of the best GM's out there. I really like his ability to quickly cut ties w/ a player when he realizes he's make a mistake. A lot of GM's have a hard time doing that. I also think he's done an amazing job of overhauling the horrendous roster he was given into a very deep talented team.

[tigerbrew]

I really like his ability to quickly cut ties w/ a player when he realizes he's make a mistake. A lot of GM's have a hard time doing that. I also think he's done an amazing job of overhauling the horrendous roster he was given into a very deep talented team.

Totally agree with you on this.

[trwi7]

Hammond isn't the one who signed Redd

 

Obviously. That somehow absolves him from blame when he had the oppurtunity to get rid of Redd? His first move after he became GM was to go out and get a worse version of Redd for slightly less money.

 

Sorry, but I still don't. You're trying to tell me that because he had is option declined that he is a bigger bust than Darko Milicic who has produced next to nothing and was drafted directly ahead of Carmelo Anthony, Chris Bosh and Dwyane Wade.

 

I said one of the biggest busts. Not the biggest. Reading comprehension helps.

 

I don't understand what bringing up the last two decades has to do with anything.

 

You were saying the Alexander pick wasn't as bad because he got LRMAM in the 2nd round. I say nailing a lottery pick is much more important than nailing a 2nd rounder. Then I used the example of the Bucks the past two decades who have gotten Sessions, Redd, Ilyasova, LRMAM, Bogans, Alston and Snow in the 2nd round over the last 20 years while drafting guys like Alexander, Haislip, Przybilla, Yi and Traylor in the lottery. So yeah, I'd much rather hit on lottery picks and have my 2nd rounders turn out to be scrubs than the other way around.

 

You need to fill a roster.

 

You don't need to fill it with 15 players like he does. And you don't need to give two year deals to scrubs like Elson and Allen.

 

Gobias said Conley and a 1st.

 

It was Conley and a 1st. If they didn't plan on picking up Alexander's option and re-signing Sessions with a reasonable deal, they absolutely should've done that deal.

 

Sessions averaged 8.2 ppg and 3.2 apg last season in 21 minutes.

 

In the triangle offense, which is a horrible fit for his style of play. In fact it's a horrible style of play for that whole team with the way their roster is constructed.

 

He plays ZERO defense, even when Skiles had him he never played D.

 

He was fine on D. Not great, but alright. And his numbers probably look worse than he actually was due to Bogut being out for so long and having to play with a frontline of Elson/Gadzuric/Allen/Villanueva and he was still a net positive.

 

We'll have to see what the plans are for the backup PG going forward

 

Well they better hope they can sign Ridnour, because he's the only option right now. The other options would be Anthony Carter, Anthony Johnson or Royal Ivey. Would you rather have Sessions then?

 

CV is not even close to Gooden in my opinion. I'd take Gooden 10 times out of 10.

 

The only thing Gooden has on CV is rebounding. They are both awful defenders. Neither is very efficient on offense.

 

And to be clear. I thought Hammond was terrible in year one. I thought he was bad in year two but his moves turned out to be great. I really hope I'm wrong on the Gooden move, but he's been in the league for so long and has been terrible everywhere. I actually liked the Maggette move and I'm iffy on Salmons.

[yount19.u]

 

You were saying the Alexander pick wasn't as bad because he got LRMAM in the 2nd round. I say nailing a lottery pick is much more important than nailing a 2nd rounder. Then I used the example of the Bucks the past two decades who have gotten Sessions, Redd, Ilyasova, LRMAM, Bogans, Alston and Snow in the 2nd round over the last 20 years while drafting guys like Alexander, Haislip, Przybilla, Yi and Traylor in the lottery. So yeah, I'd much rather hit on lottery picks and have my 2nd rounders turn out to be scrubs than the other way around.

Does he get no credit for drafting Jennings last year? Not to mention he did miss on 2nd rounder Meeks, but was still able to turn him into a high 2nd round pick this year. Hammonds is far from perfect, but when a move he makes does not pan out, he quickly recognizes it and still gets some value/flexibility while it still exists.

[gobrew23]

Hammond isn't the one who signed Redd

 

Obviously. That somehow absolves him from blame when he had the oppurtunity to get rid of Redd? His first move after he became GM was to go out and get a worse version of Redd for slightly less money.

 

Get rid of him for what though? Who says there was anything being offered of value.

 

Sorry, but I still don't. You're trying to tell me that because he had is option declined that he is a bigger bust than Darko Milicic who has produced next to nothing and was drafted directly ahead of Carmelo Anthony, Chris Bosh and Dwyane Wade.

 

I said one of the biggest busts. Not the biggest. Reading comprehension helps.

 

First off, condescension shouldn't really be necessary just because we don't agree on something. Second, I have already said it was a bad pick, but there are bad picks every year. And there have been plenty of picks in the last decade that are just as bad or worse. It sucks we made that pick, but Hammond realized the mistake and cut ties.

 

I don't understand what bringing up the last two decades has to do with anything.

 

You were saying the Alexander pick wasn't as bad because he got LRMAM in the 2nd round. I say nailing a lottery pick is much more important than nailing a 2nd rounder. Then I used the example of the Bucks the past two decades who have gotten Sessions, Redd, Ilyasova, LRMAM, Bogans, Alston and Snow in the 2nd round over the last 20 years while drafting guys like Alexander, Haislip, Przybilla, Yi and Traylor in the lottery. So yeah, I'd much rather hit on lottery picks and have my 2nd rounders turn out to be scrubs than the other way around.

 

Well obviously hitting on a top ten pick is important, but unfortunately it didn't happen that year. Either way he was able to make a good pick in the 2nd round. Does he not get any credit for that?

 

You need to fill a roster.

 

You don't need to fill it with 15 players like he does. And you don't need to give two year deals to scrubs like Elson and Allen.

 

Again, if you want to criticize for spending a million dollars on a back end of the bench player, go ahead. I don't think it's hurting our team.

 

Gobias said Conley and a 1st.

It was Conley and a 1st. If they didn't plan on picking up Alexander's option and re-signing Sessions with a reasonable deal, they absolutely should've done that deal.

 

Maybe you should re-read the link you posted. It referred to the Bucks giving up Sessions and JA for Conley, never mentioned a pick.

 

Sessions averaged 8.2 ppg and 3.2 apg last season in 21 minutes.

 

In the triangle offense, which is a horrible fit for his style of play. In fact it's a horrible style of play for that whole team with the way their roster is constructed.

 

He plays ZERO defense, even when Skiles had him he never played D.

 

He was fine on D. Not great, but alright. And his numbers probably look worse than he actually was due to Bogut being out for so long and having to play with a frontline of Elson/Gadzuric/Allen/Villanueva and he was still a net positive.

No, I'm pretty sure his D was Redd-esque.

 

We'll have to see what the plans are for the backup PG going forward

 

Well they better hope they can sign Ridnour, because he's the only option right now. The other options would be Anthony Carter, Anthony Johnson or Royal Ivey. Would you rather have Sessions then?

 

No, I'm hoping Hobson will be a good young backup PG.

 

CV is not even close to Gooden in my opinion. I'd take Gooden 10 times out of 10.

 

The only thing Gooden has on CV is rebounding. They are both awful defenders. Neither is very efficient on offense.

 

And to be clear. I thought Hammond was terrible in year one. I thought he was bad in year two but his moves turned out to be great. I really hope I'm wrong on the Gooden move, but he's been in the league for so long and has been terrible everywhere. I actually liked the Maggette move and I'm iffy on Salmons.

 

Gooden had a higher PER rating than CV last year, and has a career shooting percentage of .465 compared to .436 for CV. I don't know if the difference is huge between the two, but I prefer Gooden.

[trwi7]

Does he get no credit for drafting Jennings last year? Not to mention he did miss on 2nd rounder Meeks, but was still able to turn him into a high 2nd round pick this year.

 

Did I say he gets no credit for those moves? I loved the Meeks deal, he was a shooter who couldn't shoot. The fact that we were able to get a high 2nd rounder for him was amazing to me after what little he showed.

 

Gooden had a higher PER rating than CV last year, and has a career shooting percentage of .465 compared to .436 for CV.

 

PER is awful and CV is a career 44.9% shooter. Use TS% instead. It accounts for 3s and free throws as well. Gooden's career TS% is .520, Villanueva's is .523.

 

I'd also prefer Gooden to Villanueva, but that's not saying much and with the contracts both of them got, I'd much rather have neither.

[Eddiehitsthefoulpole]

Remember it was Larry Harris's plan to clear out the roster this year and go after Dwyane Wade. He would have had his building blocks of Wade, Bogut, Yi, and Redd. Ummm, considering that we would have no chance at Wade I like Hammond's plan better.

[Gobias Industries]

Yeah, I'm talking first year he was pretty awful.

 

Last year, pretty much everything work perfectly. Jennings pick was great (although it does scare me that they had Flynn rated higher. Thank god for Kahn). Meeks was a fine second round pick. I thought we were getting a guy who had limited athletic ability but could shoot the hell out of the ball. Turns out he was pretty much the exact opposite.

 

Yoshii: I'd give Hammond a C+ overall. I weighed our good year a little heavier than our bad year considering we were still in cap hell. Mostly Larry Harris' fault, but as we noted, Hammond certainly had a chance to fix it sooner. But last year was a lot of fun, and that's still pretty fresh in my mind.

 

He was a solid A overall last year. He added Ersan, Salmons, Delfino, and Jennings to the core. All of his stopgaps (Thomas, Stackhouse, Ridnour) played great. Bogut's contract turned to an okay one to a bargain (get well, Andrew). Shrewd trades. Cut his losses and moved on (RJ, Meeks, and JA).

 

First year, I have a hard time not giving him an F for the reasons I laid out. Maybe he needed time to get acclimated to the job? I dunno but he was freaking terrible. The only player added to the core was LRMAM. Bad contracts. Bad non moves. Good hire of Skiles though, but Kohl never opened up his purse and allowed Harris to hire an established coach.

 

Obviously, I'm not liking where this offseason is going.

Maggette trade: B+. Huge talent upgrade. Fills a need. Doesn't cost much more than the two scrubs we sent out. Only question, does he D up for Skiles?

 

Draft: C. I've come around on this a little bit. But the grade is basically meaningless. We'll see after the season is over whether or not it was a good one. I obviously wanted Babbit, but Sanders seems like a good kid so maybe he does develop. Have come around on the 2nd rounders after reading more.

 

FA: F. Gooden will have one of the worst contracts in the league as soon as the ink dries. Salmons is a player but too long and won't play at the insane level he did for the short time he was with us. Fans will hate these deals in a few years.

[strawbossisevil]

Calling Gooden "terrible" or "horrible" is simply not being objective. The guy nearly averaged a double double in just over 20 minutes per game last season. He is also a guy who, when he makes it to the line converts on a level unseen amongst men his size.

 

Is he a superstar? No. But he is most definitely a slightly above average big man.

 

All of the dramatics get old after a while. It's fine to say you don't like the deal, that you think he's too expensive, signed for too many years etc, but to try to act as if the player we got in this deal is terrible when he clearly isn't, isn't helping your credibility when discussing this deal.

[trwi7]

He may get 13/10 or whatever, but if he gives up 18/8 on better percentages, is he really a positive?

[wallus]

I do not have a whole lot to say but some of the same "experts" said we would be awful last year and were completely wrong.

[strawbossisevil]

If, if, if. I'd say it remains to be seen how he will play on defense in Skiles system. I don't think it's likely that PFs that go against him are going to put up numbers like that against him on a nightly basis. I think that is overly pessimistic.

 

I think he'll be a plus for the team over all, and most experts commenting on the signing seem to agree, even if they don't agree with the length of the contract or cost.

 

But hey, if you want to call him terrible, go right ahead. I just can't take that dramatic of a viewpoint seriously.

[Oldcity]

All of the dramatics get old after a while. It's fine to say you don't like the deal, that you think he's too expensive, signed for too many years etc, but to try to act as if the player we got in this deal is terrible when he clearly isn't, isn't helping your credibility when discussing this deal.

That's my biggest issue. I lurk at realgm a few times a year, and really appreciate the very knowledgeable posters there, but so much of it is filled with condescension and hyperbole that I eventually lose my patience and get tired of sifting through it all. I'm not excited about the Gooden deal either, but many of the posters there reacted similarly to drafting Jennings, signing Delfino, letting Sessions walk, and signing Stackhouse. All ended up being good to great moves.

[RockCoCougars]

I really don't get all the love for Babbitt. I watched a lot of late night Nevada games last season, and Babbitt came off to me as a type of poor man's Adam Morrison. He's a very streaky scorer, and frankly, I think he will get manhandled in the NBA due to his age and frame. Frankly, there is nothing that Babbitt can do that Ilyasova cannot. I'm glad the Bucks took a chance with Larry Sanders. Though I didn't see much of Sanders, I like the comparisons that I've seen to Theo Ratliff. If he can play anywhere close to that level at some point, that is exactly what the Bucks need down low.

[crewcrazy]

Steve Blake just got 4/$16 million from the Lakers. I remain convinced the entire league is stupid.

[Oldcity]

Man. Ridnour is going to get five freaking years.

[dadofandrew]

Most "insiders" seem resigned that Ridnour will sign with the Knicks, now that the Lakers chose Blake.

[WisconsinSportsRule]

Ridnour apparently had a 4/12 offer from the Lakers that he was willing to accept, but they took Blake instead.

[Gobias Industries]

Funny. Blake is probably a worse player.

 

We went all in. The Bucks might as well resign ridnour. We have bird rights on him, so hammond can go higher on him. Otherwise it's the bi annual exception, and that will only land a total scrub like Anthony Carter.