Milwaukee Bucks Thread 2008–2009 (part 2)

[trwi7]

There are a couple of ways to get out from RJ's or Redd's contract this offseason while saving some money. Either find unguaranteed contracts and waive those players owing them only minimal buyouts or find a team under the cap willing to use their cap space to absorb part of RJ or Redd's salary.

 

Unfortunately, I can't see Hammond making either of those moves. He doesn't strike me as the go out and make a move happen type of guy and I can't see any teams offering more than salary relief and if he didn't take it in February, why would he take it in June?

[davego]

DeJuan Blair could replace Cv to some extent. Sessions could stay then.

[trwi7]

If we draft Blair with the 10th pick I'm going to need a new TV and a new wall.

[davego]

Funny. After the top, say 4...this draft is a crap shoot.

[JJHardy7]

I really want Lawson. He was one of the best 3 point shooting guards in basketball last year and from day one will be one of the fastest players in the league. He does have his questions though since his size may limit what he can do on defense and his injury history is a bit clouded.

[Invader3K]

I'm a very casual Bucks fan...but I have to ask, is this team ever going to do anything but spin its wheels or what?

[patrickgpe]

i like blair, but realize he may not be a good nba player.

 

If I was Hammond, I'd bring back Sessions and let CV go. The bucks then have options, you could get Earl Clark then, which I'd be fine with. Maybe a Jordan Hill will fall to 10 but I wouldn't count on it.

 

If they don't bring back either CV or Sessions, I'd look point gaurd and think Lawson would be the way to go, with Holliday a close second.

 

Also keep in mind that Redd is a FA after this year and the bucks may need to get a 2, like Henderson or Ellington.

[JJHardy7]

Also keep in mind that Redd is a FA after this year and the bucks may need to get a 2, like Henderson or Ellington.

 

He has a player option after this year, which I have to believe is a slam dunk for him to pick up.

[trwi7]

I'm a very casual Bucks fan...but I have to ask, is this team ever going to do anything but spin its wheels or what?

 

Not until they get a star player or until the figure out the "win now while rebuilding" plan doesn't and will never work in the NBA.

[Baldkin]

Building around an oft injured "superstar" that can't create his own shot and doesn't play defense isn't ever going to win in the NBA.

 

Its too bad the Bucks haven't gotten the memo on that one yet.

[JJHardy7]

Building around an oft injured "superstar" that can't create his own shot and doesn't play defense isn't ever going to win in the NBA.

 

Again, according to some resources Redd is a top 20 player in the league. Look back in this thread for the links. I also don't know if I'd call him 'oft injured'. He's really only missed significant time two times.

 

I would imagine if this team was healthy all year they would've made the playoffs pretty easily. I think they actually could've gotten at least a 6 seed.

 

trwi7...I think the problem with your reasoning is that you really can't rebuild in the NBA. There's no point. You could lose a bunch of games and then get screwed like the Kings and get the #4 pick in a bad draft. I think the missing piece from this Bucks team is a stud PF. I know they're hard to find, but with Sessions, Redd, Jefferson, stud PF, and Bogut that would be a pretty darn good team. CV is a good player. He's more of a SF to me though and the Bucks have/had enough of those types on the team this year. I was hoping against hope they'd get Griffin. You add Blake to this team and I personally think they're a top 4 team in the East if healthy. I think Blake is going to be that good and Bogut would have a career year playing next to him.

 

The major issue IMO is the health of Bogut. I'm starting to wonder if he's going to be counted on in the future. I really like him and his numbers have gotten better every year. I think he's close to being an elite big guy (there aren't many of them in the NBA...so it probably makes it easy for him to get there), but he's going to have to stay healthy. Redd's injury also worries me a bit. We're essentially on the hook for $18 million after next year once he picks up his option.

[trwi7]

trwi7...I think the problem with your reasoning is that you really can't rebuild in the NBA. There's no point. You could lose a bunch of games and then get screwed like the Kings and get the #4 pick in a bad draft.

Sure there's some luck involved, there's also good scouting.

 

Look at Portland. They traded all of their high priced vets and went young. They lucked out and got the #1 pick, but they also got Roy in a draft day trade for Foye, they got Aldridge in a draft day trade for Tyrus Thomas, they cleared a ton of salary, buy draft picks from teams who want to stay out of the luxury tax and overall draft well.

 

Same thing with the Thunder. They let Rashard Lewis walk since they knew a non-special wing player on a team with no superstar wouldn't do them any good, especially when they had to pay him max money.

 

They traded Ray Allen for the #5 pick used on Jeff Green. They had some luck and got Durant, but made a nice pick in Westbrook last year. Once again, they drafted well and cleared salary. Being below the salary cap allowed them to absorb the salary of Kurt Thomas to help clear some space for the Suns below the luxury tax. So they ended up trading a conditional 2nd round pick to absorb Thomas' salary and got two future 1st round picks from the Suns in the process. They then flipped Thomas to San Antonio for the expiring contracts of Francisco Elson and Brent Barry along with San Antonio's 1st round pick. They ended up trading the San Antonio pick for Thabo Sefolosha, who is a decent looking wing prospect and they could conceivably have two lottery picks next year, their own and the Suns.

 

When was the last time the Bucks ever did something like the Blazers or Thunder?

[JJHardy7]

Look at Portland. They traded all of their high priced vets and went young. They lucked out and got the #1 pick, but they also got Roy in a draft day trade for Foye, they got Aldridge in a draft day trade for Tyrus Thomas, they cleared a ton of salary, buy draft picks from teams who want to stay out of the luxury tax and overall draft well.

 

Is Oden going to live up to the pick?

 

When was the last time the Bucks ever did something like the Blazers or Thunder?

 

I understand what you're saying, but I think it does have some risk with it. First you need to find two teams that would take Redd and Jefferson. The teams you mentioned all made the moves in a different economy. Teams aren't going to take on big contracts and most teams are close to the 'cap'. That's why we've seen players traded for nothing (Camby comes to mind). In other words, it was a lot easier to clear cap space a few years back.

 

The Bucks did shed Mo Williams contract last summar and Bobby Simmons. I know they took back Jefferson, but to me I'd still make that move. I don't think the Bucks are as bad as their record is either. If they're healthy, come back with the same team (I know not likely), and add a player or two, I don't think it's out of the question that they could win at least 10 - 15 more games next year. That would put them in a nice spot. I'm mixed on whether or not they should trade the veterans. I think they should stand pat and wait for the contracts to expire due to the fact that I don't see a lot of teams wanting to add salary due to the economy.

[Diskono]

Redd actually does defend pretty well now, unfortunately he wasn't around long enough this season for anybody to notice. He's a nice enough player to have, just makes too much money.

[yoshii8]

If we draft Blair with the 10th pick I'm going to need a new TV and a new wall.

Do you think he is going to be that bad as a pro? I know he's only 6'7", but he has a 7'2" wingspan, and was absolutely dominant against some very good teams, especially before his knee injury. I guess I just think his game will translate to the NBA, I definitely don't think he will be another Tractor Traylor. He seems like a very driven player, and I think he'll do whatever it takes to succeed in the NBA.

[patrickgpe]

woelfel has the bucks taking flynn in his first mock, i'd be fine with that but he screams shawn respert to me.

 

link

[Diskono]

Respert had an unfair disadvantage, since he had cancer while he was with the Bucks. But yeah, I get the idea.

[LouisEly]

The contracts for both Redd and Jefferson are both major anchors holding the franchise hostage, yet when Hammond was given a get out of jail free card for one of them he threw it away. Incredibly stupid decision.

 

Can I ask, how is Redd's contract any more of an anchor on the team than say, Kevin Garnett's contract with the Celtics?

 

Maybe I'm missing something, but the Bucks were 17-16 with Redd in the lineup last year and 17-32 without him. If he can't create his own shot, then how in the world does he average 21ppg when the opponents know that he is the only guy on the team who can shoot from beyond 15 feet? The only guy on the team with an AFG% higher than him was Bogut.

 

If you take Michael Redd out of this lineup, who becomes your go-to guy when the game is on the line? People want to dump Redd and Jefferson... who does that leave left to score? Charlie Bell??? The reason those guys make the money they do is because they are the only guys on the team who can score!

[trwi7]

Can I ask, how is Redd's contract any more of an anchor on the team than say, Kevin Garnett's contract with the Celtics?

Because Garnett is 10x the player Redd is. That's probably why.

[JJHardy7]

woelfel has the bucks taking flynn in his first mock, i'd be fine with that but he screams shawn respert to me.

 

Wasn't Respert a 2 in college though? I don't know if it's a fair comparison.

 

Because Garnett is 10x the player Redd is. That's probably why.

 

10x? Really? I do not get the hate for Redd. He was lucky enough that at the time he signed his deal max contracts were 'the thing to do'. He would've gotten that money from somewhere else. Look at the four teams left in the playoffs. Now I am NOT comparing Redd directly to these guys...so please don't call me crazy. You need guys in the league that can score. Each team left has guys that can flat out score - Bryant, 'Melo, LeBron, and Lewis - who play can play the 2 or 3. Again, I'm not comparing Redd directly to these guys. Out of the four left, I think the scenario/team that would really make sense for the Bucks to follow would be Denver. If you have a Billups type PG, Redd would be a stud with that guy. I think one of the main problems Redd has had the past few years is that he Bucks haven't had an elite PG. It's a guard league now and that's exactly why Redd shouldn't be getting all the hate. He would've most likely been an all-star this year since it seemed for the first time in awhile we had some solid PGs around him. You need guys in the league that can flat out score. Based on some comments here you'd think fans would love to just release Redd if it didn't have a cap hit. That doesn't make any sense and this Bucks team would not be able to find a scorer. I'd knock on a guy like CV before I would Redd.

 

EDIT - Great points LouisEly.

[trwi7]

Bryant - passes, rebounds and defends

Melo - passes and rebounds

LeBron - best player in the game

Lewis - his contract is a joke, nobody believes he should be signed for that much, but at least the Magic have Dwight Howard so the signing made at least a little sense.

[Baldkin]

2 guards who can shoot are a dime a dozen in the league, same as swing men who can slash and score. Redd may be above average, but he's no where near on the level of the elite 2-guards in the league -- of which there are 2, Kobe and D-Wade, imho.

Yes, Redd can flat out score, you just don't pay pure scorers max money and build around them. He needs to compliment someone else. Reggie Miller never won a title. Ray Allen didn't until he got put into a defensive juggernaut along side KG and PP in Boston.

 

I don't hate Redd, I think he's an amazing player and a heck of a guy off the court, the problem is he's paid too much for what he brings to the table, and the contract will hamper the Bucks from bringing in what they need. They were a playoff team this year without all the injuries... but is building to win one game in the first round of the playoffs really what you want the franchise to do?

[danzig6767]

The contracts for both Redd and Jefferson are both major anchors holding the franchise hostage, yet when Hammond was given a get out of jail free card for one of them he threw it away. Incredibly stupid decision.

 

Can I ask, how is Redd's contract any more of an anchor on the team than say, Kevin Garnett's contract with the Celtics?

Because Garnett is a great player, Redd is a great scorer and nothing more. That's why when Garnett was traded, the Wolves got in return one of the best young big men in the game, multiple first round picks, and dumped off bad money. If the Bucks had asked for anything remotely close to that for Redd, the next thing heard on the line would be a dial tone.

If you take Michael Redd out of this lineup, who becomes your go-to guy when the game is on the line?

Do you ever watch the Bucks? Redd should wear a choke collar in the 4th quarter of games unless it's a blowout because the guy consistently plays like crap when games are close in the 4th quarter.

 

People want to dump Redd and Jefferson... who does that leave left to score? Charlie Bell??? The reason those guys make the money they do is because they are the only guys on the team who can score!

I wasn't saying the Radd and Jefferson make the Bucks worse with them than without them. The huge problem is that next year they'll make a combined 32 million dollars and they don't produce anywhere near that level. They are paid like superstars when in reality they aren't close to being superstars and that is a killer for the franchise. Teams with guys like Redd as your best and high paid player will always have very limited ceilings. Oh well, the Bucks have waited to long to dump Redd because Kohl was never willing to just bottom out and rebuild properly, hoping to squeak into the playoffs as a 7th/8th seed has been to important to him. Maybe next year Kohl will get his wish if the team stays healthy.

[JJHardy7]

2 guards who can shoot are a dime a dozen in the league, same as swing men who can slash and score. Redd may be above average, but he's no where near on the level of the elite 2-guards in the league -- of which there are 2, Kobe and D-Wade, imho.

 

Why is Redd ranked as a top 20 player in the league though (or he was when healthy)? See the links in this thread. Nobody has yet to answer that question, but I'm sure it will be the stats are flawed, Redd stinks, etc. etc.

 

Again, my point is each team in the finals has a guy that can flat out score. Redd's game was top 20 in the league by some folks (again see the links on the prior pages).

 

I don't see why Redd being the highest paid player = the Bucks suck by some. I think the problem is you pay Danny G a ton of money and the other bad contracts that are or were on the team. Give Redd and the Bucks a good PG and I think this is a different story. I believe there was a thread here on bf.net that questioned why in the world the Bucks would want Billups an off-season or two ago. I think that right there says enough about what some 'Bucks fans' think about the team. I respect that opinion, but that's a prime example of not knowing how to build a team. It's a guard league. Team up Redd with a guy like Billups and this team gets home court throughout. Redd is a good player. Again, look at the record with Redd and without Redd. What does that say? That Redd might actually have value? There's no way this team if healthy is a 7th or 8th seed. They would've pushed for home court.

 

Again, the Bucks (or any other team) can't dump contracts at the flip of a coin now. Anyone who expects that or thinks that will happen will be disappointed. Most NBA teams have spent way too much and are waiting until next off-season and until then all want to dump salary...but the economy hasn't helped that...at all.

 

The Bucks aren't perfect and it probably starts with ownership. I do think it's nice to have a guy like Redd who is an Olympian and all-star and WANTS to be in Milwaukee. I'm going to go out on a limb and say it'll be more than few years until that happens again with one player.

[trwi7]

Nobody ranks Redd as a top 50 player. Off the top of my head, players that are better.

 

Wade

LeBron

Prince

Hamilton

Bogut

Pierce

Allen

Garnett

Carter

Harris

Butler

Howard

Duncan

Parker

Ginobili

Nash

Kidd

Dirk

Bryant

Gasol

Biedrins

Jefferson

Love

Roy

Aldridge

Durant

Carmelo

Billups

Nene

Deron Williams

Boozer

Millsap

Paul

 

That's 30+ players off the top of my head that are better than Redd.