Milwaukee Bucks Thread 2008–2009 (part 2)

[homer]

The bottom line is, Lebron James is really good no matter what rating system you look at. :0

[davego]

Just an opinion statement, but I'd guess that Redd is for-sure one of the top 25 players in the league.

[trwi7]

When Redd is healthy, he is a top 20 player.

If Redd was a top 20 player, our records wouldn't have been so abysmal the past few years. Great players make their teams better. LeBron led a bunch of scrubs to the finals. Redd has led us to a .500 record a couple times. Redd is more like a top 50 player. Maybe.

[davego]

True, but I'll suggest that the difference between LeBron (top 3 in the game) and Redd (top 25) is far greater then you are considering.

[homer]

Lebron is possibly the best player ever - or at least he will be considered probably top 10 of all time.

[trwi7]

Again, if Redd was top 20, we wouldn't have been so awful. Wade is leading a bunch of nobody's and over-the-hill players to a winning record.

 

You need either a superstar player (a LeBron or Kobe or Paul or Wade) or a few all-star caliber players to win in the NBA. Redd is a one time all-star, I don't know how many all-star games Jefferson has played in, but neither were all-star caliber players this year. The best player on the Bucks is Bogut, easily.

[Diskono]

Redd hasn't been a top 20 player most of his career, but you could argue that he was playing like one before his injury. Most defensive metrics I've seen show him as being *very* much improved this season. While I think that Mbah a Moute is at least partially responsible for that, its also very possible that he's responded positively to having a good coach around for once.

[homer]

Again, if Redd was top 20, we wouldn't have been so awful. Wade is leading a bunch of nobody's and over-the-hill players to a winning record.

 

Again, you are comparing top 5 to top 20. No one is saying Redd is as good as Lebron or Kobe or D Wade or Chris Paul.

[JJHardy7]

Again, you are comparing top 5 to top 20. No one is saying Redd is as good as Lebron or Kobe or D Wade or Chris Paul.

 

Agreed. I'd also argue that Wade is leading a bunch of nobodies. I would also think Michael Beasley, Jermaine O'Neal/Shawn Marion would object as well. Again, as Homer is saying nobody is comparing Redd to Wade or anything. Wade is better than Redd. It would've been nice to see what this team could've done if healthy this year. My bet is they would've been one of the stories in the league and maybe Redd would finally get some respect by some around here.

 

Also, where are all the stats and the support that Redd isn't top 40 or whatever people are saying? I could make a short list and say Redd is top 10...but that would not be true. There are stats out there for NBA players that show Redd is top 20. Are these metrics all flawed and a simple list proves them wrong? Or just stating an opinion? I know the NBA isn't big here, but that'd be like posting Ryan Braun would be the best 3B in baseball if he moved back. There would be several posts with support about why that is wrong and that support would include statistics. Not just opinions that Redd stinks, etc., etc. I'm just saying he's not a scrub. He's been an all-star and an Olympian...I don't want to here, but this or that. His stats and rankings among others back that up. Is he a perfect player? Of course not, but that doesn't make him an average player. We'll see if Redd comes back and is healthy what he's traded for and my guess it's going to surprise some people here.

[samwise]

On any given night I believe there are 3-10 "best" players in the league; Kobe, Bron, Wade (especially this year) CP3, Howard, Duncan, D-Will and a few others. These guys are elite, game changing players and their styles differ greatly. CP3 and Howard may play totally different but the impact for their team is probably the same. However, Lebron may be distancing himself from the pack only because he is a freak of nature, as Bill Simmons puts it he is Magic Johnson with Karl Malone's body. Essentially Lebron can beat you any way. There is no stopping him.

I may have been a little harsh on Redd. The more I think about it the more I realize that when healthy the guy can have a big impact on games with his ability to shoot a high percentage. Not a game changer like the guys above, but for sure someone you have to focus your defense on. Yeah he gets paid too much but I have to admit that there was really no other choice. You could not have let the guy walk especially knowing that you could outbid everyone else.

[endaround]

He doesn't get paid too much, Duncan, LeBron and Kobe just get paid too little. The NBA salary cap hurts the best players most

[JJHardy7]

I may have been a little harsh on Redd. The more I think about it the more I realize that when healthy the guy can have a big impact on games with his ability to shoot a high percentage. Not a game changer like the guys above, but for sure someone you have to focus your defense on. Yeah he gets paid too much but I have to admit that there was really no other choice. You could not have let the guy walk especially knowing that you could outbid everyone else.

 

I also think generally speaking it's difficult for a player like Redd to 'carry a team'. Guys who play 'similar' positions to Redd (Kobe, Bron, Wade) and are clearly better are better because they can carry their teams often times. These guys are just flat out the three best players in the league IMO. Redd is the best shooter of the four (not trying to compare him in any ranking here at all), but he lacks the ability to score, etc. when his jump shot isn't going down. He's drastically improved getting to the bucket, but compared to the three guys I mentioned there aren't too many 2 guards (if you can even call those guys 2 guards based on matchups they can vary position) who can carry a team and they're able to do it because they offensively can do it all on the court. Now if Bogut develops like I hope he does or Redd is paired with legit all-star big guy somewhere that would be a team that Redd and the big guy could carry. Could you imagine pairing Redd with Dwight Howard? I know that won't happen since they paid Rashard Lewis a significant amount, but that duo would be very hard to beat offensively.

[trwi7]

Again, you are comparing top 5 to top 20. No one is saying Redd is as good as Lebron or Kobe or D Wade or Chris Paul.

 

Fine.

 

Joe Johnson

Josh Smith

Al Horford

Ray Allen

Paul Pierce

Kevin Garnett

Emeka Okafor

Gerald Wallace

LeBron James

Dirk Nowitzki

Josh Howard

Jason Kidd

Chauncey Billups

Carmelo Anthony

Rip Hamilton

Tayshaun Prince

Andris Biedrins

Yao Ming

Kobe Bryant

Pau Gasol

Andrew Bynum

Dwyane Wade

Andrew Bogut

Al Jefferson

Vince Carter

Devin Harris

Chris Paul

David West

Kevin Durant

Jameer Nelson

Dwight Howard

Andre Iguodala

Amare Stoudemire

Steve Nash

Brandon Roy

Kevin Martin

Tony Parker

Manu Ginobili

Tim Duncan

Chris Bosh

Deron Williams

Carlos Boozer

Paul Millsap

Caron Butler

 

So that would put Redd at 45 and then you add guys like Greg Oden, Russell Westbrook, O.J. Mayo etc. who could end up being better than him in a year or two and he isn't close to top 20. Top 40-50 is right with Redd. And you need a superstar or at least two all-stars to contend. We have neither.

[homer]

I guess this piggybacks JJ Hardy's post, but why do you think those guys are better than Redd? Just your opinion?

[trwi7]

All Redd does is score. These guys have at least two things they do, whether that be scoring and rebounding, scoring and passing, scoring and defending, some do more than two, some only do two, but all of those players do at least one more thing than Redd.

[JJHardy7]

All Redd does is score. These guys have at least two things they do, whether that be scoring and rebounding, scoring and passing, scoring and defending, some do more than two, some only do two, but all of those players do at least one more thing than Redd.

 

So it's opinion. That's fine. Agree to disagree.

[bbrauch2000]

you also may be the only person on the planet who thinks that all three guys on the Hawks would be better than Redd. Horford has shown very little improvement upon his rookie campaign and Josh Smith has regressed this season as well. There are many other examples on that list that are far from concrete.

 

I think this is an example of not seeing the forest from the trees. Redd is highly regarded throughout the league and could be the second best player on a championship contender.

[samwise]

The point I want to make is this: It may be that many of the guys on TRWI7's are better than Redd. However on any given night Redd can be just as good, if not better than many of them. Besides for the 10 or so elite players the 11-50 range is in no way set in stone. It just is not like baseball where we can take the top 50 OPS and rank players.

[trwi7]

Redd is highly regarded throughout the league

If he was making $10 million maybe. The guy is on a max contract and all he does is score. Would you pay the max to a player like Redd? Teams just aren't going to completely screw up their salary structure for a one dimensional, non all-star wing. That's how the Bucks build their teams though. Two non all-star wings taking up over half the salary cap. Not exactly going to win you a ton of games.

[davego]

I'll disagree on the 'all he does is score.' When all he was asked to do was be the shooter in a bunch of sets ran for him; it's hard to blame the player for that. This year, when asked to be part of an offense and required to defend (as opposed to that stupid soft 2-3) he was demonstrating to be more then adequate. Similar thing can be said about Andrew. When he has had the opportunity to do more then set screens he has been a much improved offensive player.

[Gobias Industries]

you also may be the only person on the planet who thinks that all three guys on the Hawks would be better than Redd. Redd is highly regarded throughout the league and could be the second best player on a championship contender.

-No, I agree with trwi7 there, especially if we take salary into consideration. Redd's skill is very replaceable, and SG is arguably the easiest position to fill.

 

-Redd could be the second best player on a contender if he was paired with a super-duper star like LBJ, Wade, Kobe, CP3, Duncan, or Howard. Otherwise, no, if he was paired with a guy even as good as Bosh, they wouldn't have a chance.

 

To win a championship, you either need one of those top 5 or 10 alpha dogs, or a team constructed like the Celtics or the Pistons from a few years ago. Redd would obviously have to be part of the latter, but with his contract, it makes it a near impossibility.

[JJHardy7]

-No, I agree with trwi7 there, especially if we take salary into consideration. Redd's skill is very replaceable, and SG is arguably the easiest position to fill.

 

The problem is you can't. The salary has strange cap rules compared to other sports. See Enders post about it. It's not that Redd is paid too much...it's that others are paid too little.

 

-Redd could be the second best player on a contender if he was paired with a super-duper star like LBJ, Wade, Kobe, CP3, Duncan, or Howard. Otherwise, no, if he was paired with a guy even as good as Bosh, they wouldn't have a chance.

 

There's only a few players you mention. Nobody is saying Redd is top 5. Nobody is saying Redd can/will lead a team to a championship. Top 20 isn't crazy.

 

To win a championship, you either need one of those top 5 or 10 alpha dogs, or a team constructed like the Celtics or the Pistons from a few years ago. Redd would obviously have to be part of the latter, but with his contract, it makes it a near impossibility.

 

I still fail to see why the contract matters. This isn't to pick on you, but if you can't get over the contract that's fine. Nobody is saying top 5 or 10 and you seem to agree with this. Redd is not a Top 50 player or whatever was mentioned here. The NBA in general screwed up in prior years with these max deals and contracts given out. Bobby Simmons got a HUGE deal from the Bucks...let's be more upset about that than Redd's deal. Redd earns his money. Is he a max player now? Probably, but given the cap restrictions almost every team has now he wouldn't be and there may not be a single player this off-season given a max contract. That's how much things have changed. I'd also ask this question from the apparent Redd 'hate' (well it's not hate, but some things said here about the guy are just flat out wrong). Are the Bucks going to be able to lure any player mentioned here with max contracts? My guess is no. The Bucks have to build from the draft and trades and then re-sign the guys that are good because they can pay more than anyone else given the rules in the NBA. So would you rather have another Simmons-type contract...or Redd? I'm not taking into account how good Redd is or isn't, but given the fact that Bucks have shown they'd have to overpay to get free agents signing Redd to that contract was a no brainer.

 

The impact of signing Simmons means you trade him for another expensive contract (RJ). RJ is a pretty good player, but I agree it doesn't make sense to have Redd and RJ to big contracts. The state the Bucks are in they had to give Redd that contract. Redd hasn't sucked or had a career ending injury or anything. He's a darn good player and he's not top 10, but for the Bucks to have an all-star and Olympian that STAYs in Milwaukee is a pretty good thing. The sad thing is they let Ray Allen go. I'd much rather argue about keeping Allen and such, but where would the Bucks have been with Redd? The problem isn't Redd. The problem is the team is forced to draft and trade for their good players. Free agents won't come to Milwaukee at market value.

[trwi7]

-No, I agree with trwi7 there, especially if we take salary into consideration. Redd's skill is very replaceable, and SG is arguably the easiest position to fill.

 

The problem is you can't. The salary has strange cap rules compared to other sports. See Enders post about it. It's not that Redd is paid too much...it's that others are paid too little.

What does the salary cap have to do with anything? Redd is paid the maximum you can be paid. Only the top players in the game (the Wade's and LeBrons' and Kobe's and Paul's and Howard's) should make that kind of money.

 

Now if there was no salary cap and those players I just listed were making $30 million a year, then Redd would be fine making $17 million a year. However, since those players are making roughly the same as Redd, Redd's contract becomes a major problem for what he brings to the table.

[JJHardy7]

However, since those players are making roughly the same as Redd, Redd's contract becomes a major problem for what he brings to the table.

 

I'll just agree to disagree on what Redd brings to the table. There are some rankings of players (links are in this thread) that would state Redd is a top 20 player. Again, he would've most likely made the all-star team if healthy this year. I just don't see how he's a bad player. He probably just happened to be exactly hitting the market when teams weren't as salary aware. I personally think max contracts are a thing of the past and for top 5 or top 10 players. Probably not for Redd, but you can't fault him or the Bucks for that. A guy like CV would've received a max or close to a max contract in that same market. There's no way he gets that now.

[Katuluu]

All Redd does is score. These guys have at least two things they do, whether that be scoring and rebounding, scoring and passing, scoring and defending, some do more than two, some only do two, but all of those players do at least one more thing than Redd.

For Vince Carter would that second thing be pouting?