Per ESPN: Braun Tests Positive, May Face 50 Game Suspension (Part 2)

[Nottso]

In a word, yes. If you were going to court, would you state your specific defense and tactics to the public before your trial? Obviously this is a little different than court but it's still a hearing...

 

Well said, rawbecht. I find it strange that knowing that Braun has far fewer rights and protections in this than he would have in a regular court, many seem to think he should be less cautious than one would be in a regular court proceeding. I just don't get that.

[jeffy]

http://sports.yahoo.com/m...un_ped_suspension_121111

 

MLB had its chance to dump the Braun case. Part of its joint drug agreement with the players’ union calls for a meeting after the confirmation of a positive from the second sample. If both parties agree there is no reason to proceed – whether because of a chain-of-custody problem or another circumstance – they can overturn the suspension.

 

So what happened? Did Braun's team hold back information that would have made this go away so that they could spring it on MLB at the appeal?

 

 

If you were going to court, would you state your specific defense and tactics to the public before your trial? Tactics? I thought he was completely innocent...what tactics are needed besides stating the truth?

 

Why is Braun's team not simply remaining silent, why did they, as Passan put it: "Leak, leak, leak...to FoxSports.com and the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel and the New York Daily News, little tidbits intermingled among Sunday’s NFL action".

 

Also again, given the meeting that was supposed to have occurred, one would presume the basis of Braun's defense would already have been presented to MLB at that time.

[Baldkin]

So, MLB gets the second positive, I'd imagine, Braun would've said what the problem was, according to him.

I don't think MLB would take "This is B.S., I am taking medication for something" as a good enough reason to simply drop the case at that point. They would go to the appeals hearing almost by default. The fact that it is probably something Braun did (as opposed to an error on MLBs side) is why it would go to the appeal.

[Nottso]

I thought he was completely innocent...what tactics are needed besides stating the truth?

 

Ask that to any one of the thousands of innocent people sitting in prisons... and they had tons more rights/protections at trial than Braun ever will.

[joepepsi]

"...there will be a defense. It's not something he knew or should have known about."

As I understand it, that defense is not going to work. It's the same thing Palmeiro tried to no avail. Claiming you didn't know drug-supplement-vitamin X would elevate your T levels is not a justifiable defense. Otherwise every one would claim this.

[jjfanec]

http://sports.yahoo.com/m...un_ped_suspension_121111

 

MLB had its chance to dump the Braun case. Part of its joint drug agreement with the players’ union calls for a meeting after the confirmation of a positive from the second sample. If both parties agree there is no reason to proceed – whether because of a chain-of-custody problem or another circumstance – they can overturn the suspension.

 

So what happened? Did Braun's team hold back information that would have made this go away so that they could spring it on MLB at the appeal?

 

 

If you were going to court, would you state your specific defense and tactics to the public before your trial? Tactics? I thought he was completely innocent...what tactics are needed besides stating the truth?

 

Why is Braun's team not simply remaining silent, why did they, as Passan put it: "Leak, leak, leak...to FoxSports.com and the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel and the New York Daily News, little tidbits intermingled among Sunday’s NFL action".

 

Also again, given the meeting that was supposed to have occurred, one would presume the basis of Braun's defense would already have been presented to MLB at that time.

Whats funny is you quote Passan who says Braun should just shut up in that same article while you say Braun should hold a press conference

[jeffy]

"...there will be a defense. It's not something he knew or should have known about."

As I understand it, that defense is not going to work. It's the same thing Palmeiro tried to no avail. Claiming you didn't know drug-supplement-vitamin X would elevate your T levels is not a justifiable defense. Otherwise every one would claim this.

 

Exactly, which is why this all just seems like spin and half-truths by Braun's team. I am trying to react to the information the same way I would if it were some else, like say, Pujols. I don't know (or really care) if he is "guilty" or not, but none of the leaking from Braun's team has seemed to amount to any kind of defense that is going to meet the required standard, so he will most likely be out for 50 games.

 

The only difference with it being Braun, rather than, say, a Cardinal is that I say that's too bad that they are not going to have him for 50 games in Braun's case, while in the other case I'd say good the Cardinals will have to get by without ______ for 50 games.

 

Just because Braun happens to wear a Brewer uniform does not mean I am going to delude myself into thinking that he, while seeming to be a pretty decent guy, is anything other than another cocky, arrogant, athlete who will do whatever he thinks he can get away with to gain an advantage. Kind of like the portrait of him that Anthony Witrado has "painted" here:

 

http://aol.sportingnews.c...-suddenly-is-in-question

[RockCoCougars]

Kind of like the portrait of him that Anthony Witrado has "painted" here

 

I can't believe this hack is still bitter towards Braun. He should be thanking his lucky stars that he knows someone who got him a job at a national media outlet (though who reads the Sporting News anymore? I'm sure that Braun's persona is a fraud at some level (who's isn't?), but I'm not going to change my opinion of him based how he treated the local media and Ken Macha.

 

It's looking like Braun is guilty, but the primary reason that he hasn't been crucified by the press yet is probably primarily due to the fact that no suspension has been doled out. Not to mention that we are in the middle of football season. The 'small market' thing plays a role as well.

[burnzy24]

Whats funny is you quote Passan who says Braun should just shut up in that same article while you say Braun should hold a press conference

No matter what Braun says or does it will never fully please anyone. If he says absolutely nothing and waits for the hearing then people take it as an admission of guilt. If he does like he has and mounts a vigorous defense, then people like Passan call it a "spinfest." The likely reason that he is not having a press conference is doing so would be in violation of the arbitration agreement which was agreed to in the CBA. He is in a lose-lose situation which makes it even more upsetting it was leaked MLB's final verdict.

 

As I understand it, that defense is not going to work. It's the same

thing Palmeiro tried to no avail. Claiming you didn't know

drug-supplement-vitamin X would elevate your T levels is not a

justifiable defense. Otherwise every one would claim this.

 

Actually I believe one of the few defenses baseball even allows for a positive test is that the player took something that no reasonable person should have known would cause the positive test. Palmerio's defense was that he took a B-vitamin shot that was tainted with steroids from Tejada which doesn't exactly pass the smell test since. That is why I am interested to hear what Braun's defense actually is. It would be difficult to prove but it is far from impossible otherwise why even have it available as a defense.

[Raw Biz]

"...there will be a defense. It's not something he knew or should have known about."

As I understand it, that defense is not going to work. It's the same thing Palmeiro tried to no avail. Claiming you didn't know drug-supplement-vitamin X would elevate your T levels is not a justifiable defense. Otherwise every one would claim this.

 

Exactly, which is why this all just seems like spin and half-truths by Braun's team. I am trying to react to the information the same way I would if it were some else, like say, Pujols. I don't know (or really care) if he is "guilty" or not, but none of the leaking from Braun's team has seemed to amount to any kind of defense that is going to meet the required standard, so he will most likely be out for 50 games.

 

The only difference with it being Braun, rather than, say, a Cardinal is that I say that's too bad that they are not going to have him for 50 games in Braun's case, while in the other case I'd say good the Cardinals will have to get by without ______ for 50 games.

 

Just because Braun happens to wear a Brewer uniform does not mean I am going to delude myself into thinking that he, while seeming to be a pretty decent guy, is anything other than another cocky, arrogant, athlete who will do whatever he thinks he can get away with to gain an advantage. Kind of like the portrait of him that Anthony Witrado has "painted" here:

 

http://aol.sportingnews.c...-suddenly-is-in-question

Well the way I look at it is, would you ever have suspected Braun of "juicing" before this? With guys before (Bonds, Manny, ARod, McGwire, etc.), I think most people had a suspicion (or at least weren't surprised) that those players were juicing, whether it be from radical physical changes or ridiculous spikes in numbers or both. Braun has been incredibly consistent in his career and he doesn't look jacked at all. Carlos Gomez looks bigger than Braun. I know not all PEDs change your appearance or affect people the same way but I'm still doubtful here.

It also doesn't make sense to me that Braun would use in the playoffs since he knew (or should have known) that every team gets tested then. He seems a lot smarter than that. Finally, what Braun's team has been saying seems a lot different than what guys have said in the past. IIRC, most guys just said something like "i'm innocent" or "i didn't knowingly take anything." Braun's team has specifically said these circumstances are highly unusual, they are positive he will be cleared, etc. I may be blinded by my Brewers faith but they seem like they at least have somewhat strong of a case. The fact that his levels were double the highest ever signals to me that something screwy is going on here.

In the end, if Braun is actually suspended, I will still believe that he didn't knowingly take anything. He just doesn't seem that stupid and his numbers are consistent and not incredibly outrageous.

 

[brettac1]

But why couldn't he have just been taking them for his whole career and then finally got caught this time? That would help the consistency.

[jjfanec]

Witrado has a bruised ego from Braun not showing him love. Passan decided Braun was guilty right away and has been on the attack ever since. That is their choice as journalists but dont act like they are unbiased news people. Passan himself is spinning stuff that Braun's team is saying. I am biased because I want Braun to be innocent, and I wont deny that. But Witrado and Passan are people who act like they are looking for truth but have made up their mind what the truth is before all the facts are out.

 

I do love the comments like I wont delude myself into believing Braun which makes it seem like anyone who actually believes him is blind to the truth. There are good sportswriters out there that arent ready to crucify Braun yet either. They must be as deluded as some of us are

 

Also burnzy is there clarification that this is true "The likely reason that he is not having a press conference is doing so would be in violation of the arbitration agreement which was agreed to in the CBA. He is in a lose-lose situation which makes it even more upsetting it was leaked MLB's final verdict." If so that would put to rest some of the disagreement here

[jeffy]

I do love the comments like I wont delude myself into believing Braun which makes it seem like anyone who actually believes him is blind to the truth.

 

As I also said, at this point I neither know nor care...though to me, the fact that this was not dismissed after the initial meeting does lead me to believe Braun was doing something. Did not mean to imply that anyone who leans toward believing him is delusional at this time, but there will be some who continue to believe Braun did nothing that violated the agreement even after he loses the appeal (assuming he does) and serves his 50 days.

[jeffy]

Whats funny is you quote Passan who says Braun should just shut up in that same article while you say Braun should hold a press conference

 

My intent has to say he should have done one or the other...shut up or tell the whole story.

 

There was a comment that Braun can't comment on the issue at hand...

 

I had pointed out that he and his team have commented. If you're not going to talk about it don't, but don't tell me, my lawyers advise to to not talk about it and them put out selective comments and have your people feeding information to the press.

[pebadger]

Let's turn this on its head. Why isn't everyone who is clamoring for Braun to "just tell us the truth" also asking the same of MLB? The only "truth" that really matters to this case, short of MLB having an unimpeachable eyewitness to Braun actually using banned substances, lies in the test results and the accompanying procedural documentation. If Braun is going down, he's going down on the strength of numerical data. That data isn't changing. They aren't printing up new chromatograms. MLB is in control of all that information right now. If their case is indeed airtight, what would be the harm in releasing the results, especially if Braun waives any objection?

[Nottso]

Also burnzy is there clarification that this is true "The likely reason that he is not having a press conference is doing so would be in violation of the arbitration agreement which was agreed to in the CBA.

 

Right at the beginning, Braun's people stated that they couldn't comment further due to the ongoing appeal process. Haudricourt had it in a piece. I can't go look for it now, I get to go play with my grandsons (maybe GI Joe, maybe race cars- either way, I win).

[jjfanec]

Whats funny is you quote Passan who says Braun should just shut up in that same article while you say Braun should hold a press conference

 

My intent has to say he should have done one or the other...shut up or tell the whole story.

 

There was a comment that Braun can't comment on the issue at hand...

 

I had pointed out that he and his team have commented. If you're not going to talk about it don't, but don't tell me, my lawyers advise to to not talk about it and them put out selective comments and have your people feeding information to the press.

The same "selective" comments that Braun's lawyers have made have been stated by MLB sources. Tom H had an MLB source who said the exact same thing Braun's people did. Braun hasnt said anything of substance yet. Saying it is bs and that he is innocent is it. His people have said the test results were highly unusual and that it wasnt a PED. You are right that is saying stuff. I just hate how people call the stuff coming from Braun's camp spin but take ESPN's report as complete fact. Like ESPN has never spun anything before.

Why does Braun have to do either? This shouldnt have come out. It was leaked but someone else. His team wasnt ready for the public firestorm yet so they are making sure they have their ducks in a row. That is what any team would do.

[jeffy]

Let's turn this on its head. Why isn't everyone who is clamoring for Braun to "just tell us the truth" also asking the same of MLB? The only "truth" that really matters to this case, short of MLB having an unimpeachable eyewitness to Braun actually using banned substances, lies in the test results and the accompanying procedural documentation. If Braun is going down, he's going down on the strength of numerical data. That data isn't changing. They aren't printing up new chromatograms. MLB is in control of all that information right now. If their case is indeed airtight, what would be the harm in releasing the results, especially if Braun waives any objection?

 

An interesting provision of the agreement related to that is:

 

4. Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the Program, either

Party may disclose publicly details of a Player’s test results, testing history and/or

the Player’s challenge to discipline imposed pursuant to Section 8 below to the

extent necessary to respond to any inaccurate or misleading claims by that Player

that could undermine the integrity and/or credibility of the Program.

 

http://mlbplayers.mlb.com/pa/pdf/jda.pdf

 

 

Now that might explain the real reason Braun is himself not making the statements attempting to discredit the results of his test, if he did it would free MLB to talk.

[jjfanec]

Let's turn this on its head. Why isn't everyone who is clamoring for Braun to "just tell us the truth" also asking the same of MLB? The only "truth" that really matters to this case, short of MLB having an unimpeachable eyewitness to Braun actually using banned substances, lies in the test results and the accompanying procedural documentation. If Braun is going down, he's going down on the strength of numerical data. That data isn't changing. They aren't printing up new chromatograms. MLB is in control of all that information right now. If their case is indeed airtight, what would be the harm in releasing the results, especially if Braun waives any objection?

 

An interesting provision of the agreement related to that is:

 

4. Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the Program, either

Party may disclose publicly details of a Player’s test results, testing history and/or

the Player’s challenge to discipline imposed pursuant to Section 8 below to the

extent necessary to respond to any inaccurate or misleading claims by that Player

that could undermine the integrity and/or credibility of the Program.

 

http://mlbplayers.mlb.com/pa/pdf/jda.pdf

 

 

Now that might explain the real reason Braun is himself not making the statements attempting to discredit the results of his test, if he did it would free MLB to talk.

Braun's defense would probably rather play this out in the court of appeals and not the media. It is much more controlled environment. The 24/7 sports media would make it a nightmare to try to defend themselves publicly as opposed to just having to do it in the court of appeals.

[pebadger]

Thanks for posting that jeffy. I think everyone should read it very closely to understand exactly what it really means.

[Raw Biz]

But why couldn't he have just been taking them for his whole career and then finally got caught this time? That would help the consistency.

IF that was the case, he must have had a really good masking agent that wasn't detected either. Or he has a mole on the inside that told him when he was going to be tested. Or he had a fake you-know-what filled with clean urine. I think you get my point. I believe Braun has been tested at least twice every season, plus both times they made the playoffs. I would think that if he had been on something all along, he would've been caught a lot earlier. I mean Manny has been caught twice already. Sure Braun could have been incredibly lucky the whole time and Manny unlucky but I doubt that's the case.

I'm a Brewers fan (and Braun has been my favorite player in the organization since he was drafted) so I'm obviously biased. But we really don't have enough facts to come to any conclusion now and nothing in Braun's history makes me believe that he actually knowingly took any PEDs.

[jjfanec]

Thanks for posting that jeffy. I think everyone should read it very closely to understand exactly what it really means.

Can you explain to me what it means? You have had to explain pretty much all of this to me http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[pebadger]

Thanks for posting that jeffy. I think everyone should read it very closely to understand exactly what it really means.

Can you explain to me what it means? You have had to explain pretty much all of this to me http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

Focus on this : to the [/i]extent necessary to respond to any inaccurate or misleading claims by that Player [/i]that could undermine the integrity and/or credibility of the Program.[/i]

MLB can go public with stuff if they want to respond to the Player saying mean things about the drug program. The Player can also respond if the Player is saying mean things about the drug program.

[ilovebeer]

I am still in shock over this and do not believe it, Braun's body has not changed since day 1 and he has aways hit between 28 and 35 home runs, I kind of hope that the rumor going around is true. I am boycotting ESPN they should never have came out until the whole story is out.

[ilikewisco]

If he does get found guilty of using a banned substance, I would just assume he has used something throughout his career. I don't expect anyone else to feel the same, but how rare is it to see someone with his build hit the ball like he does. Either he is a once in a lifetime player, which could be, or he's had help.