Braun Suspended for Remainder of 2013 Season: Aaron Rodgers' Reaction

[jerichoholicninja]

Also what players have tested positive and are not being suspended??

 

Melky Cabrera, Bartolo Colon, and Yasmani Grandel tested positive last year and were suspended last year (and part of this year for Grandel). However, they won't be suspended now because of their connections to biogenesis because they were already suspended last year for testing positive. To me if you are going to suspend all these other players because of their "connection", those three guys need to be suspended too. What difference does it make that they served a suspension for testing positive last year. Last year's positive results and this year's "connection" are two separate issues and should be dealt with separately.

[Outlander]

We don't know if they were all-time greats or not, and what impact the PEDs had on their greatness.

We know that Bonds is an all time great, he was still the best when Sosa and McGwire were overshadowing him. We just saw how ridiculous it looks when the best player from an era is on PED's. Doesn't take away that he was the best and ultimately why he will be in the hall of fame one day, because it is very difficult to argue that there was anybody from this era better than him. MLB and the players association is certainly at fault for not dealing with the situation sooner, if they would have tackled the issue sooner then Bonds would have never done this there would be no question he was a top 5 or 10 player all time.

[Patrick425]

Also what players have tested positive and are not being suspended??

 

Melky Cabrera, Bartolo Colon, and Yasmani Grandel tested positive last year and were suspended last year (and part of this year for Grandel). However, they won't be suspended now because of their connections to biogenesis because they were already suspended last year for testing positive. To me if you are going to suspend all these other players because of their "connection", those three guys need to be suspended too. What difference does it make that they served a suspension for testing positive last year. Last year's positive results and this year's "connection" are two separate issues and should be dealt with separately.

 

Huh? So, someone murders someone. They spend 30 years in prison and then they are released. A year after they are released the state finds new evidence that was not used in the original trial reaffirms that the murderer committed the original crime. Based on this "new evidence" they send the murderer back to jail for the same crime. I'm not trying to compare murder to taking PEDs. I'm just saying that what you are saying seems to make just as much sense as the scenario I mentioned.

[torts]

Also what players have tested positive and are not being suspended??

 

Melky Cabrera, Bartolo Colon, and Yasmani Grandel tested positive last year and were suspended last year (and part of this year for Grandel). However, they won't be suspended now because of their connections to biogenesis because they were already suspended last year for testing positive. To me if you are going to suspend all these other players because of their "connection", those three guys need to be suspended too. What difference does it make that they served a suspension for testing positive last year. Last year's positive results and this year's "connection" are two separate issues and should be dealt with separately.

 

Huh? So, someone murders someone. They spend 30 years in prison and then they are released. A year after they are released the state finds new evidence that was not used in the original trial reaffirms that the murderer committed the original crime. Based on this "new evidence" they send the murderer back to jail for the same crime. I'm not trying to compare murder to taking PEDs. I'm just saying that what you are saying seems to make just as much sense as the scenario I mentioned.

 

isnt that double jeopardy and not allowed to happen?

[Patrick425]

isnt that double jeopardy and not allowed to happen?

 

Thank you! That's pretty much the point I'm trying to make! Also, remember, what is happening in baseball is based on a CBA that both the players and MLB agreed upon. So, before you say "what about Braun and double jeopardy"...he was suspended under rules that the people that represent him agreed upon. He knew (or should have known) those rules.

[torts]

yeah, I agree with MLB/MLBPA that those players shouldnt be suspended more for the same thing they were already suspended for. it just validates the suspensions they've already received

[Patrick425]

What if you were a clean player who didn't want to use drugs to compete with PED users?

 

It doesn't matter if fans care or don't care.....the players and owners have decided they want to enforce these rules so it is being done.....

 

We can argue the penalities but when labor and management are on the same side(The both want PEDs out of the game) the issue has been decided....

 

 

This might be my favorite post of the entire thread. I don't know enough about all the banned substances that are listed in the drug agreement to make a judgement about how each one of them helps or doesn't help a player perform (same for substances that are not on the list like creatine). However, apparently there are enough players in the game who are in agreement with the powers at MLB that the substances listed as banned are substances that don't have a place in the game of baseball. And, as markedman5 stated, that's really all that matters.

[SoupTown]

Many ped users passed many tests. They were suspended because their names were on a list. Passing tests was (is) not a problem

 

Hence the only outcome from this is : keep your name off of lists. This outcome does nothing to stop a guy taking ped's if he can make 10 or 50 or 120 or 250 million by doing it

 

Straight question: if you can take ped's for 2 years and make 20 million, do you do it?

[Patrick425]

Many ped users passed many tests. They were suspended because their names were on a list. Passing tests was (is) not a problem

 

Hence the only outcome from this is : keep your name off of lists. This outcome does nothing to stop a guy taking ped's if he can make 10 or 50 or 120 or 250 million by doing it

 

Straight question: if you can take ped's for 2 years and make 20 million, do you do it?

 

 

There is no straight answer to that because it's not a "straight" question. $20 million vs. ?? What would have Braun been worth without the PEDs? Some say that the current PEDs do nothing but help you recover quickly. Hard to quantify how much that was worth in terms of $$ in his contract. I don't know that the reward is greater than the risk and I know that I wouldn't agree to play by rules if I didn't think I could follow them.

 

"Keep your name off of lists". A) You say that like you have certain proof that this is the only reason why these guys were suspended. No one on this board knows with any certainty or detail what evidence that MLB accumulated against these players in their investigation B) You also say this like it's a simple thing to do. Even if you separate yourself from the distributor by 2, 3, 4 people, there is always someone out there that knows and can be motivated to blow the whistle on you. There will always be a trail that leads back to you.

 

As has been stated, I think MLB and the players union (who have made no statements to defend these players) has made it clear that they will do what it takes to weed out players that do not want to play by the mutually agreed upon rules. If you can't abide by this and feel that the reward is greater than the risk, then don't cry foul when you are caught and face suspension or even possible banishment from the game.

[thebruce44]

Many ped users passed many tests. They were suspended because their names were on a list. Passing tests was (is) not a problem

 

Hence the only outcome from this is : keep your name off of lists. This outcome does nothing to stop a guy taking ped's if he can make 10 or 50 or 120 or 250 million by doing it

 

Straight question: if you can take ped's for 2 years and make 20 million, do you do it?

 

I'd do it just to advance at my job for a minimal pay increase. In fact, I know quite a few people I work with or went to school with used/use PED's like adderall for licensing tests. I didn't because I'm oddly good at standardized testing with minimal effort, but if I needed to I wouldn't really think twice about it.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I find it interesting that Selig said that this shows that testing and investigative work are working to clean up the sport.

 

Um......isn't this almost absolute proof that testing almost certainly ISN'T working? Most of these guys that got suspended never popped a positive, yet were obviously using.

 

And by "investigative work" Bud, you mean "paying the dealers and threatening ex-employees", right? I mean, let's not gild the lily here. Let's call it what it is. It's called blackmail, and selective information leaks to the media.

[Funketown]

How many of these Biogenesis players failed an MLB drug test? Something like 4 of them?

Assuming these guys have been using for the last 4-5 years of drug testing at least on-and-off, this would seem to indicate that the odds of a PED user failing one of MLB's tests are still really low.

I seriously doubt Bosch is the only guy running this type of clinic. I have no clue how many players are using, but I now believe that the game has far more drug users than I did before the Biogenesis scandal.

 

Selig can spin this any way he likes, but it's pretty clear his drug program has not caught very many of the users.

[Patrick425]

Do you guys think the NBA, NFL, Olympics, etc are catching every user? Do you think MLB has a inferior testing policy to other sports? Do you think that nobody should ever be arrested for a crime unless everyone that has ever committed that same crime is also arrested?

 

Also, RoCoBrewfan...do you work for MLB or the Player's Union? You seem to have a lot of facts (or at least you present them as facts) about what "really" happened.

[torts]

seeing as how 13 NFL players have been suspended since april for failed PED tests, and major league baseball has had zero players suspended for failed tests since april.. i'd say the NFL has a leg up on baseball

[thebruce44]

Do you guys think the NBA, NFL, Olympics, etc are catching every user? Do you think MLB has a inferior testing policy to other sports? Do you think that nobody should ever be arrested for a crime unless everyone that has ever committed that same crime is also arrested?

 

Also, RoCoBrewfan...do you work for MLB or the Player's Union? You seem to have a lot of facts (or at least you present them as facts) about what "really" happened.

 

I think the NFL and NBA have handled the steroid aspect much more effectively. MLB's integrity was apparently ruined and needs to be protected while the NFL especially markets their product as entertainment and isn't on as high of a horse in terms of history and preservation. MLB made themselves a target for more criticism. As such, they have been ineffective at what they said they were going to do. Personally, I don't care, but the criticism is very warranted. They made their own bed.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Do you guys think the NBA, NFL, Olympics, etc are catching every user? Do you think MLB has a inferior testing policy to other sports? Do you think that nobody should ever be arrested for a crime unless everyone that has ever committed that same crime is also arrested?

 

Also, RoCoBrewfan...do you work for MLB or the Player's Union? You seem to have a lot of facts (or at least you present them as facts) about what "really" happened.

 

 

Well, we do know that MLB used some form of coercion against Bosch and Biogenesis (that's blackmail)

 

We also do know that the majority (by far) of the players that got suspended did not fail a drug test.

 

I don't have a problem with baseball trying to "clean up the sport". I have a problem with the powers that be making up the rules (and using shady tactics at that) as they go. I have, and always will have a problem with the focus being not on the dealer, but the user, but..........that's the way it is. MLB doesn't care about the Victor Conte or Tony Bosch's of the world, as long as they find out who they're selling to.

 

And.......is there a reason you're being snarky at me? I'm not attacking a post or a poster, so do me a courtesy and don't do it to me either. If you want to break down what I said and say "this is wrong", cool, but the whole "do you work for the Union?" Really? You can debate stuff better than that.

[Patrick425]

Well, we do know that MLB used some form of coercion against Bosch and Biogenesis (that's blackmail)

 

Ummm....no we don't. I'll stop being "snarky" when you stop pretending to know things you could have no possible way of knowing.

 

We also do know that the majority (by far) of the players that got suspended did not fail a drug test.

 

This is allowed under the CBA that both side agreed to.

[rondoman]

I have, and always will have a problem with the focus being not on the dealer, but the user, but..........that's the way it is. MLB doesn't care about the Victor Conte or Tony Bosch's of the world, as long as they find out who they're selling to.

 

What are they supposed to do to Conte and Bosch?!

 

I dont get this. The players put the stuff in their bodies. Like any kind of substance if there are people willing to pay to get it, there will be dealers there to supply it. You will never stop the dealers from dealing it.

[rondoman]

As Patrick has said, the CBA that both the owners and players agreed to states you do not have to fail a test to be suspended. What is so hard to understand about this?

[thebruce44]

Well, we do know that MLB used some form of coercion against Bosch and Biogenesis (that's blackmail)

 

Ummm....no we don't. I'll stop being "snarky" when you stop pretending to know things you could have no possible way of knowing.

 

Yea, actually we do since their civil suit against Bosch is public knowledge. That magically went away when he cooperated. What else do you need for that to be "fact?"

 

Either way, you could be respectful of fellow posters.

[RightFieldCoder]

I have, and always will have a problem with the focus being not on the dealer, but the user, but..........that's the way it is. MLB doesn't care about the Victor Conte or Tony Bosch's of the world, as long as they find out who they're selling to.

[sarcasm]They did focus on the dealer. Didn't you hear that Conte and Bosch received lifetime bans? Both of their major league careers are over and we'll never see them put on a jersey again.[/sarcasm]

 

Since the worst punishment MLB can hand out is suspensions, it would make sense that they only go after people they can suspend.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I have, and always will have a problem with the focus being not on the dealer, but the user, but..........that's the way it is. MLB doesn't care about the Victor Conte or Tony Bosch's of the world, as long as they find out who they're selling to.

[sarcasm]They did focus on the dealer. Didn't you hear that Conte and Bosch received lifetime bans? Both of their major league careers are over and we'll never see them put on a jersey again.[/sarcasm]

 

Since the worst punishment MLB can hand out is suspensions, it would make sense that they only go after people they can suspend.

 

I completely get that. There's nothing MLB can do to guys like Conte and Bosch. It's like you said, they can't 'suspend' them. That doesn't mean I like it, or ever will, that MLB is basically cutting deals with the dealers to get at the users.

[DuWayne Steurer]

As Patrick has said, the CBA that both the owners and players agreed to states you do not have to fail a test to be suspended. What is so hard to understand about this?

 

Nothing.

 

My post was in reference to MLB saying the system and the testing was working. My post said that if most of the guys currently suspended were not popping positive, wouldn't that be indicative that the testing is in fact, NOT working? That guys that are cheating are finding ways to circumvent the testing?

 

What's so hard to understand about THAT?

[trwi7]

Without the Miami New Times MLB doesn't know a damn thing about Biogenesis and the 12 players suspended probably passed several dozen tests. How people (especially Bud) thinks the tests work is absolutely laughable to me.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Without the Miami New Times MLB doesn't know a damn thing about Biogenesis and the 12 players suspended probably passed several dozen tests. How people (especially Bud) thinks the tests work is absolutely laughable to me.

 

That's what the next phase of this story should be, if MLB is indeed serious about cleaning up the game instead of trying to save face publicly...of all the players suspended recently, only Braun failed a test (others linked to Biogenesis did fail tests but already served their suspensions). One guy supplied PEDs to about 20 baseball players, and his client list was actually much higher when factoring in pro athletes in other sports (who apparently don't give a crap about PEDs, since we've heard nothing from the NBA, MMA, tennis, etc).

 

MLB needs to keep digging and following leads - yet the only way the Biogenesis story came to light is the business failed and a former worker was pissed at the ringleader so he went to the papers. with all the publicity this story has generated, I won't be surprised when the next "clinic" or "nutrition/performance company" surfaces in the news that's linked to a few dozen more MLB players.

 

At the end of the day, the deterrent for PEDs needs to be some combination of a stiffer suspension (2-3 seasons for 1st time offense), and the ability for owners to put poison pills into contracts that allow them to be voided upon a player getting suspended. I think the MLBPA may be at a point where that's acceptable the next time the CBA gets negotiated - they'd much rather do that than leave pandora's box open for MLB to basically invent suspension lengths without positive tests using evidence given to them from a creep in exchange for not suing him.