Braun Suspended for Remainder of 2013 Season: Aaron Rodgers' Reaction

[JohnBriggs12]

I think it's pretty clear Braun took a banned substance. He played Russian roulette with a substance that probably only can be detected shortly after being used figuring the odds of being tested within that period were small. No doubt he was likely sold that multiple players had used the same product and not been detected. He would not otherwise have accepted the suspension. The Biogenisis stuff is a gift to MLB because it proves their testing program is terribly flawed.

[Patrick425]

I think it's pretty clear Braun took a banned substance. He played Russian roulette with a substance that probably only can be detected shortly after being used figuring the odds of being tested within that period were small. No doubt he was likely sold that multiple players had used the same product and not been detected. He would not otherwise have accepted the suspension. The Biogenisis stuff is a gift to MLB because it proves their testing program is terribly flawed.

 

Not sure how much of a "gift" it is because I'm not sure if they have the ability to fix it. Seems to me that it pretty much impossible to keep up with the ever changing landscape of PEDs and their associated masking qualities.

 

What I do think this does is sends a message to players stating that if we are unable to catch you with lab results then we will not hesitate to follow any other leads that are given to us regarding banned substance use in the game. Providers may be able to just about "guarantee" that substances will not be detected if they are used as directed, but they have a much harder time making the same claim in regards to a paper trail or other incriminating evidence that may be leaked out.

[thebruce44]

Carroll is a pretty well respected journalist

 

Many people consider Bob Costas and Buster Only respected journalists, but I'm guessing you don't agree with their thoughts about this situation. "Respected" is an opinion of the people respecting them. Respected or not, any information that anyone states regarding what happened during the appeals process, other than words coming directly from MLB, the arbitors, or Braun himself, has to be considered speculation at this point. You can't choose to believe one person who claims to have inside information and not another based on your opinion about their "respectability" (or just because it fits in with your line of thinking).

 

2- this was reported by multiple reporters, not just Carroll

 

Who? Did they report it independantly or did they quote Carroll? Did they report it as fact or speculation?

 

these results matched what a lot of people with a scientific or technical background figured happened. Otherwise, chain of custody and sample handling on their own are large enough issues to render results inconclusive.

 

"figured" being the key work here. And yes, I agree chain of custody is important, and Braun had every right to win his case based on that (if that's how he won it...again, nobody really knows this for sure).

 

Funny how it's ok if Will Carroll leaks information that he somehow got (like to know how he got this information), but if someone else leaks information that is not "Pro-Braun" they are scum.

 

 

You can't choose to believe one person who claims to have inside information and not another based on your opinion about their "respectability"

 

Sure I can. And I did. And I will continue to do so.

 

Who? Did they report it independantly or did they quote Carroll? Did they report it as fact or speculation?

 

There were lots of reports about it not being a technicality. I remember reading a second article at SI.com about them repeating the testing but can't find it now. However, here are some articles about why flawed testing procedures are not a technicality:

 

http://espn.go.com/espn/commentary/story/_/page/munson-120224/ryan-braun-ruling-raises-embarrassing-questions-mlb-drug-testing

 

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/23/ryan-braun-got-off-on-a-technicality-bull/

 

http://www.baseballnation.com/2012/2/24/2820524/braun-decision-why-ensuring-a-proper-chain-of-custody-matters

 

And here is one about confirmation bias, what I assume you are accusing me of:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/ryan-braun-and-confirmation-bias/

 

"figured" being the key work here. And yes, I agree chain of custody is important, and Braun had every right to win his case based on that (if that's how he won it...again, nobody really knows this for sure).

 

Funny how it's ok if Will Carroll leaks information that he somehow got (like to know how he got this information), but if someone else leaks information that is not "Pro-Braun" they are scum.

 

Not really sure how to respond to this or even if its directed at me. I honestly don't really care if a player uses whatever is medically available to them to try to get back or stay on the field, after all I spend a lot to follow the team and I want the best players there and healthy.

 

I like Will Carroll because he interacts with a lot of his readers even if its criticism and generally seems intelligent. I think he cares much less about his popularity than getting a story correct. And I think when it comes to medical issues he knows more than a lot of other reporters. I don't think any reporters are scum (with rare exceptions like Bayless who I hesitate to even call a reporter)...some are lazy though and I don't think they are worth my time.

[sveumrules]

How much does it cost to test all these players in both the major and minor leagues multiple times a year?

 

It would seem these funds would be better diverted towards tracking down the dealers/suppliers and just get rid of testing all together since it clearly isn't effective in even the slightest degree.

 

That would of course pre-suppose that MLB actually wants to rid the game of PED's and not just give the public the perception that they do.

[Fear The Chorizo]

elephant in the room is that Biogenesis also had pro athletes in basketball, track & field, etc...baseball is the focus now, but I'm sure the leagues that have far less expansive drug testing (NFL, NBA, etc) are full of athletes on the same stuff that baseball players are taking with limited concern for being tested.

 

the only way MLB would really be able to put a stop to this is a lifetime ban for the first offense (assuming a solid failed test or clear evidence that a player bought/used PEDs is available). I think that in itself may be difficult to achieve, but the next best solution is for player contracts to have a poison pill put into them indicating that any contract is voided if a player violates the JDA. I think the owners would definitely be ok with that, and the players' association would be willing to approve that change.

[markedman5]

Jamie Samuelsen ‏@JamieSamuelsen 60s

Just to repeat from Spring Training. Peralta - "I have never used PEDs. Period. Anybody who says otherwise is lying."

 

today

Danny Knobler ‏@DannyKnoblerCBS 9m

Peralta statement: "In the spring of 2012, I made a terrible mistake that I deeply regret."

[Patrick425]

However, here are some articles about why flawed testing procedures are not a technicality:

 

I don't dispute this and that's why I said this: And yes, I agree chain of custody is important, and Braun had every right to win his case based on that (if that's how he won it...again, nobody really knows this for sure).

 

I honestly don't really care if a player uses whatever is medically available to them to try to get back or stay on the field, after all I spend a lot to follow the team and I want the best players there and healthy.

 

You are entitled to that opinion. Seems like many have this opinion (that you think it's ok for athletes to use this stuff to recover quickly). I don't share that opinion. For one, injuries have always been part of sports and I accept that as a sports fan. A good team that has depth can overcome injuries. Another reason is because I believe players will use that as an excuse when they are really using it to build muscle and enhance their natural abilities on the field. Knowing what I know now about that era (Sosa, McGuire, and company), I'd rather not return to that.

 

What I have a hard time understanding is that some seem to be ok with players breaking the rules that they agreed upon with MLB? I think the speed limit should be 80 but that doesn't mean I can go 80 or that I should be outraged when I get caught and get a ticket for going 80. The players worked with the owners to make these rules in the CBA. I'm pretty sure that the rules regarding banned substances are posted in every MLB clubhouse right along side the warnings about gambling on MLB games. MLB has made it pretty clear ever since the steroid era blew up that they plan on getting serious about this and that their ultimate goal is to rid the game of PEDs. Whether or not you agree with this stance, I don't know how you can be sympathetic towards a player who knowingly violates these mutually agreed upon rules.

[thebruce44]

You are entitled to that opinion. Seems like many have this opinion (that you think it's ok for athletes to use this stuff to recover quickly). I don't share that opinion. One reason is because I believe players will use that as an excuse when they are really using it to build muscle and enhance their natural abilities on the field. Knowing what I know now about that era (Sosa, McGuire, and company), I'd rather not return to that.

 

There is a huge difference between Stanozolol and HGH. But to further muddy the waters, does it bother you that players use creatine to recover and workout more, thereby enhancing their natural abilities? If it doesn't bother you, how have you separated creatine from HGH with one being acceptable but the other not?

 

What I have a hard time understanding is that some seem to be ok with players breaking the rules that they agreed upon with MLB?

 

True, that's why while I am ok with players using HGH, I am also ok with them being suspended. I think this is one of the many reasons baseball has issues. The whole "integrity of the game" nonsense has gotten way too disingenuous over the years. But all this is for another thread.

[JimH5]

I think the two biggest things to come out of this whole mess is the remarkable turn of position by the MLBPA and its members on how they handle this issue. I don't think Marvin Miller and Donald Fehr/Gene Orza would stand for this. Michael Weiner is letting the clean players in the union advance their cause--which is really saying something.

 

He should be commended, the MLBPA should be commended, MLB should be commended for cleaning up the game. It's never going to be totally clean, there's just too big of an incentive to get major league money. But both MLB and the Players have done good by getting us to today.

 

 

The other big takeaway is realization that these non-analytic violations of the drug program really have to put pressure on the players who are tempted to cheat.

 

No longer do they just have to worry about drug tests, they also have to worry about all the people who are involved in between themselves and the drug manufacturers.

 

This started with Porter Fischer, an ex-associate of Bosch, taking information from the clinic and passing it on to the media.

 

If you're a player, now you've got to be worried about every employee and ex-employee of these clinics, the people you trust as a go-between, and any other surveillance, email, text, or other information which connects you to the source of unapproved drugs. How can they trust anonymity any more?

[thebruce44]

The other big takeaway is realization that these non-analytic violations of the drug program really have to put pressure on the players who are tempted to cheat.

 

No longer do they just have to worry about drug tests, they also have to worry about all the people who are involved in between themselves and the drug manufacturers.

 

This started with Porter Fischer, an ex-associate of Bosch, taking information from the clinic and passing it on to the media.

 

If you're a player, now you've got to be worried about every employee and ex-employee of these clinics, the people you trust as a go-between, and any other surveillance, email, text, or other information which connects you to the source of unapproved drugs. How can they trust anonymity any more?

 

This could also cause potential "cheaters" to use these drugs in more dangerous manners. Ideally, at least to me, they get HGH from a doctor who makes sure to minimize any negative side effects. Instead, they will now probably purchase through a member of their entourage from someone even shadier than Bosch without proper consultation.

[JimH5]

Bosch isn't a doctor. He just wore a lab coat.

 

Though if the thought is that a player is now going to go even further underground to get these substances, there are plenty of people in those networks with incentive to sell that information to people who are interested in it.

[Patrick425]

The other big takeaway is realization that these non-analytic violations of the drug program really have to put pressure on the players who are tempted to cheat.

 

No longer do they just have to worry about drug tests, they also have to worry about all the people who are involved in between themselves and the drug manufacturers.

 

This started with Porter Fischer, an ex-associate of Bosch, taking information from the clinic and passing it on to the media.

 

If you're a player, now you've got to be worried about every employee and ex-employee of these clinics, the people you trust as a go-between, and any other surveillance, email, text, or other information which connects you to the source of unapproved drugs. How can they trust anonymity any more?

 

This could also cause potential "cheaters" to use these drugs in more dangerous manners. Ideally, at least to me, they get HGH from a doctor who makes sure to minimize any negative side effects. Instead, they will now probably purchase through a member of their entourage from someone even shadier than Bosch without proper consultation.

 

I think Jim's point (similar to the point I made earlier) is that players now have to worry about evidence trails and whistle blowers. I don't think trusting the confidentiality exercised by a "member of your entourage" is any smarter than trusting that of the actual provider of the substances.

[thebruce44]

Bosch isn't a doctor. He just wore a lab coat.

 

Though if the thought is that a player is now going to go even further underground to get these substances, there are plenty of people in those networks with incentive to sell that information to people who are interested in it.

 

I'm sure that's true, and yes that's the point I was trying to make. It will be interesting to see where the next major ring comes from. Wonder if it will be with a more dangerous organization. There's a lot of money there, someone will step in to fill the demand.

[jerichoholicninja]

The other big takeaway is realization that these non-analytic violations of the drug program really have to put pressure on the players who are tempted to cheat.

 

No longer do they just have to worry about drug tests, they also have to worry about all the people who are involved in between themselves and the drug manufacturers.

 

This started with Porter Fischer, an ex-associate of Bosch, taking information from the clinic and passing it on to the media.

 

If you're a player, now you've got to be worried about every employee and ex-employee of these clinics, the people you trust as a go-between, and any other surveillance, email, text, or other information which connects you to the source of unapproved drugs. How can they trust anonymity any more?

 

Or, to play conspiracy theorist here...

 

Some completely innocent players are going to be suspended because of unfounded hearsay or a vindictive "clinic" owner.

 

I understand most people think MLB's testing is pretty worthless but the fact that all these players are getting suspended without a positive test is ludicrous to me. Even more ludicrous is that the players that HAVE tested positive AREN'T getting suspended.

[Patrick425]

The other big takeaway is realization that these non-analytic violations of the drug program really have to put pressure on the players who are tempted to cheat.

 

No longer do they just have to worry about drug tests, they also have to worry about all the people who are involved in between themselves and the drug manufacturers.

 

This started with Porter Fischer, an ex-associate of Bosch, taking information from the clinic and passing it on to the media.

 

If you're a player, now you've got to be worried about every employee and ex-employee of these clinics, the people you trust as a go-between, and any other surveillance, email, text, or other information which connects you to the source of unapproved drugs. How can they trust anonymity any more?

 

Or, to play conspiracy theorist here...

 

Some completely innocent players are going to be suspended because of unfounded hearsay or a vindictive "clinic" owner.

 

I understand most people think MLB's testing is pretty worthless but the fact that all these players are getting suspended without a positive test is ludicrous to me. Even more ludicrous is that the players that HAVE tested positive AREN'T getting suspended.

 

When people say things like "MLB's testing is pretty worthless" they make it sound like that's MLB's fault. As I said before, I think it's just the nature of the constant revolution of PED's and their masking agents. I don't know that even the most sophisticated system could keep up with it.

 

Also what players have tested positive and are not being suspended??

[Outlander]

Also what players have tested positive and are not being suspended??

The guy starting for the Yankees tonight, no not A-Rod, Andy Pettitte.

[Patrick425]

Also what players have tested positive and are not being suspended??

The guy starting for the Yankees tonight, no not A-Rod, Andy Pettitte.

 

He tested positive? I know he was implicated in the Mitchell report and admitted his guilt, but I'm not sure he ever tested positive under any MLB drug test. I could be wrong.

[markedman5]

Pettitte never failed a test...he just admitted he used

 

http://wahoosam.com/baseball/tweaks-and-changes-can-help-baseball-hall-of-fame-election-process/

 

How does a voter differentiate between a player like Andy Pettitte, who never failed a test, but admitted to using steroids for a brief time during his career, allegedly to recover from an injury, and a player like Manny Ramirez, who twice was suspended for violation of the policies, the final time for 100 games?

[logan82]

Lets say that this was Yadier Molina instead of Braun, would anyone have different opinions?

 

No, I still wouldn't give a crap.

I wouldn't care about the PED part but I would want Molina banned for life cause he acts like a douche on the field.

[markedman5]

What if you were a clean player who didn't want to use drugs to compete with PED users?

 

It doesn't matter if fans care or don't care.....the players and owners have decided they want to enforce these rules so it is being done.....

 

We can argue the penalities but when labor and management are on the same side(The both want PEDs out of the game) the issue has been decided....

[mothershipconnection]

Braun could come flat out and say that he took PEDs and people would still be defending him...

 

It's important to consider why his defenders are defending him, and what arguments they oppose. I personally think there's a 1 in 5 million chance that he never used, so I don't defend him there. However, I can't stand the high horses that have been mounted by too many people freaking out about how he's the "Lance Armstrong of Baseball" and should have his contract voided and receive a lifetime ban. The "defenders" camp shrinks considerably if you only include those who think he's innocent.

 

Lets say that this was Yadier Molina instead of Braun, would anyone have different opinions?

 

In my case, no. I dislike A-Rod as much as Molina and I disagree with the fits of histrionics people have engaged in over his PED use. It's really weird to me how A-Rod and Braun are the only awful human beings to many observers, while the other guys are simple cheaters who received a just punishment.

[xisxisxis]

It's really weird to me how A-Rod and Braun are the only awful human beings to many observers, while the other guys are simple cheaters who received a just punishment.

 

And of the current crop of suspendees who are the ones who have been shown to have lied, repeatedly, about PED use. I think for a good number of people, me included, that the getting caught part is minor, it's the way that both of those players handled the allegations that results in the very negative reaction. Arod repeatedly lies until there is a document or witness that counters his claim. Braun has a huge press conference to portray himself as a wronged man blaming everyone but himself. In the end he was a user who got caught. There were a million ways Braun could have handled his arbitration win and he chose to nail himself up on a cross. Petite gets a lot of slack simply because he handled himself in a much better way than clemens or arod. Most of the current group of players are taking their punishments except for 2 that seem to have character issues...

[SRB]

I wonder why so many people these days take so much pleasure in trashing all-time greats like Bonds and A-Rod. Maybe it is the modern tabloid/celebrity culture that likes taking down those at the top? Or maybe too many people just lets their opinion get formed by ESPN these days.

 

Paradoxically, I feel like public sentiment was much different in the past, despite arguably even more puritanical officials like Commissioner Landis.

[JimH5]

I wonder why so many people these days take so much pleasure in trashing all-time greats like Bonds and A-Rod. Maybe it is the modern tabloid/celebrity culture that likes taking down those at the top? Or maybe too many people just lets their opinion get formed by ESPN these days.

 

Paradoxically, I feel like public sentiment was much different in the past, despite arguably even more puritanical officials like Commissioner Landis.

 

Because Bonds and A-Rod got to the top by cheating, and then they behaved in very unlikable ways. Add Clemens to the list, too. We don't know if they were all-time greats or not, and what impact the PEDs had on their greatness.

 

In part, these guys are paying for the very friendly and protective media that "covered" the game in earlier eras. There have always been lousy people playing sports. Racists, womanizers, alcoholics, bullies. . .

 

Part of it is that today's players can't live up to the way we imagine Mickey Mantle or Babe Ruth were, and the Mantle and Ruth personas were mostly fiction.

[RobertR]

I wonder why so many people these days take so much pleasure in trashing all-time greats like Bonds and A-Rod. Maybe it is the modern tabloid/celebrity culture that likes taking down those at the top? Or maybe too many people just lets their opinion get formed by ESPN these days.

 

Paradoxically, I feel like public sentiment was much different in the past, despite arguably even more puritanical officials like Commissioner Landis.

 

Because Bonds and A-Rod got to the top by cheating, and then they behaved in very unlikable ways. Add Clemens to the list, too. We don't know if they were all-time greats or not, and what impact the PEDs had on their greatness.

 

To be fair to Bonds, he was a multiple time MVP for years before anyone thinks he took anything, and then was arguably cheated out of MVPs by Sosa and McGuire before he reportedly turned to PEDs. Bonds arguably restored himself to the top, which is probably the ultimate tragedy for Bonds, a great player sullied his reputation to keep up with lesser players.