Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 2)

[jeffy]

I personally hate the closer designation and would prefer Torres, Riske and Mota to also pitch the 9th inning if they pitch the 8th and the pitcher's spot doesn't bat. That's not how things are done in MLB though. Not a Yost or Melvin thing.

Yep, and I think because the bull pen pitchers are so conditioned to this idiocy of the "closer", any attmpt to do it differently is not likely to work because they will all freak out about it.

[Thurston Fluff]

I personally hate the closer designation and would prefer Torres, Riske and Mota to also pitch the 9th inning if they pitch the 8th and the pitcher's spot doesn't bat. That's not how things are done in MLB though. Not a Yost or Melvin thing.

Yep, and I think because the bull pen pitchers are so conditioned to this idiocy of the "closer", any attmpt to do it differently is not likely to work because they will all freak out about it.

 

This remonds me of BillJmaes comment of batting the pitcher 8th. No direct quote but the basic idea is managers who have real good teams don't do out of the box things because htey don't want to screw up. Managers with real crappy teams don't do it becuase there is no reason to. So the only real innovation comes from the average teams trying to do all they can to squeeze out an extra couple wins. I think the same can be said of the closers role.

[jeffy]

Using 2 guys stats who've never been starters and haven't aquired a full season's worth of AB yet is a little extreme to say the least. Dillon has a grand total of 122 ABs, Gwynn 217.

 

A much more fair comparison is their minor league careers.

 

Dillon is the vastly superior hitter, it's not even close.

It looks like you used total minor league stats, rather than just the splits vs. righthanders. So your numbers are not a good comparison to use.

 

http://forum.mazda6club.com/style_emoticons/default/deadhorse.gif

[jazzytrav]

This remonds me of BillJmaes comment of batting the pitcher 8th. No direct quote but the basic idea is managers who have real good teams don't do out of the box things because htey don't want to screw up. Managers with real crappy teams don't do it becuase there is no reason to. So the only real innovation comes from the average teams trying to do all they can to squeeze out an extra couple wins. I think the same can be said of the closers role.

I find this interesting. Mostly because I wouldn't put us in the realm of "good" teams. This team hasn't proven enough yet to be considered a good team since we haven't even been to the playoffs. So shouldn't we be thinking out of the box and trying to find any way to squeeze out a few more wins? Perhaps that was the thought-process of batting the pitcher 8th. I just wish it would be used in bullpen management.

 

Yep, and I think because the bull pen pitchers are so conditioned to this idiocy of the "closer", any attmpt to do it differently is not likely to work because they will all freak out about it.

I would really hope they don't. These are men. At least I hope so. There would be no reason for Gagne to start crying if he doesn't get his save opportunities. I thought Ned was the one that was supposed to install some grit into these guys.

 

Honestly, I would hope that if it was explained and communicated properly, like a good manager in any profession should always be able to do, then they should be on-board.

[Postseason2006]

You can't seriously be making this point to demonstrate Yost's ineffectiveness.

Problem is that you just lumped Royster's record in with Lopes that year. So what you are saying is completely factual since Royster was not the manager for a complete year. Proof people are in complete denial that Ned is competent.

 

 

(edit: long nested quote --1992)

[Never Outhustled]

As much as I dislike Yost, when the rubber meets the road, I am not very keen on a mid-season change. I don't know the answer to your question, and unless some very inspired choice became available, I am pretty content to let the season ride out, and fire everyone at the end of the year.

The Brewers had a somewhat similar team with a fidgety manager with similar results in 1982. GM Harry Dalton fired the manger, replaced him with a stoic, respected, veteran coach who just let the team relax and play, and the team took off. The obvious replacement for Yost is Ted Simmons, who was an integral part of that 82 team. I really hope Doug Melvin quits settling for mediocrity.

[adambr2]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3384523

 

Ned's take on Gagne being replaced, calling the idea "ridiculous."

 

Basic translation of the comments: "He's been one of the best before! He just needs to keep battling!!! You guys are stupid for even considering that a closer who blew 5 saves in the first month should be replaced!!"

 

Sigh...that's our manager.

 

#1 - Considering finding a new role in the bullpen for a reliever who blew 5 saves in 1 month is not "ridiculous". You'd be hard-pressed to find a similar situation where the idea of replacing a closer wasn't at least considered if he blew 5 saves in the first month of the season. You can certainly still argue that he shouldn't be, but doing so isn't close to being a "ridiculous" idea. That sounds, once again, like Yost is being stubborn and close-minded when his mind is set on something. I'd be bothered if he isn't at least thinking "Hey, our closer is blowing a lot of saves. If this keeps up, that could lead to a lot more losses. Maybe I should keep my eye on the situation and make a change if need be!"

 

#2 - Please stop citing past success as an excuse for anything, Ned. We don't have 2003 Gagne, 2005 Turnbow, 2005-2006 Capuano, or 2000 Kendall. So don't use those players to justify your reasoning.

[Roscoe Chill]

A Nedism from last year:

 

"It's Scott Linebrink!!!!"

[giffted1]

Sigh...that's our manager.

 

#2 - Please stop citing past success as an excuse for anything, Ned. We don't have 2003 Gagne, 2005 Turnbow, 2005-2006 Capuano, or 2000 Kendall. So don't use those players to justify your reasoning.

Shouldn't we be glad that Yost is looking at past success as he's making decisions? I'm glad that Yost plans to stick with Gagne because history suggests he isn't going to be this bad the rest of the year. That's certainly better than some knee-jerk move like naming Mota the closer because he's been good/lucky this year so far. Like always, Yost's choice of words were not the best, but suggesting demoting Gagne after a little over a month is pretty ridiculous.

[naivin]

Can someone explain to me what 1982 has to do with 2008? People act as if that is the only time a manager has been replaced mid-year. Seems to me there have been plenty of managers replaced at mid-year and despite that stroke of genius, somehow those teams still managed not to go to the World Series.

 

Ted Simmons name seems to be thrown around as the obvious replacement, but what in Ted Simmons' past suggest he will be some sort of magic bullet as a manager to make the Brewers better? The fact that this is his first MLB coaching job?

 

I'd love to see the Brewers replace Ned with Simmons if I thought that would mean a ride deep into October, but there is absolutely nothing to suggest that will be the result, as there is nothing to suggest it will result in any improvement what so ever.

[Bruce Ciskie]

Can someone explain to me what 1982 has to do with 2008? People act as if that is the only time a manager has been replaced mid-year. Seems to me there have been plenty of managers replaced at mid-year and despite that stroke of genius, somehow those teams still managed not to go to the World Series.

 

Phil Garner just did it three years ago in Houston.

 

Just sayin'.

 

It hardly ever happens because the majority of teams that replace their managers during the season are bad.

 

If this team is actually bad, more than Yost should get fired. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[UndraftedFA]

So is Ned a moron for not bringing in his best reliever in save opportunities? Isn't that what everyone gets so cranky about the closer role - it's a waste of the best reliever? Who is Ned's best reliever? Is a 2 run lead too big for Ned to expect Gagne to hold? Who is good enough to hold a two run lead?

 

That is why I don't understand the harsh Yost critics. It seems as more time is spent running in circles trying to come up with new ways to blame Ned. I guess at least in to Yo injury thread, I read one poster admit that he has no intention of providing a fair analysis of the job Ned does.

[Postseason2006]

Well, no hit and down 3 - 0 to Florida...could Royster do better?

[giffted1]

Well, no hit and down 3 - 0 to Florida...could Royster do better?

Yes, with Royster's superior motivational skills we'd still be batting in the top of the first right now.

 

[Roscoe Chill]

Shouldn't we be glad that Yost is looking at past success as he's making decisions?

 

Sure. Just as long as you're not going back half a decade when recent past shows that a half decade ago is ancient past.

[jazzytrav]

Like always, Yost's choice of words were not the best, but suggesting demoting Gagne after a little over a month is pretty ridiculous.

If Gagne is told that he's not going to get every single save opportunity, would that really be considered a demotion? I'm not saying to never let him pitch in the 9th with a 3 or less run lead, but is that the only time we can use him? And if there are 2 or 3 lefties coming up the next inning, why couldn't Shouse or Stetter come in for the "save"? If Gagne is supposed to be our best reliever, why not bring him in earlier when it's tied to make sure we keep it tied and possibly take a lead? If Gagne pitches 2 days in a row, what would be so wrong about bringing in Torres for one day?

 

I just don't understand why it has to be so black-and-white.

[sheethead]

Just so we're clear, your position is that the difference between Ned Yost and Tony LaRussa is 44 wins in a 162 game schedule (.363 vs. .636)? Forgive me if I question you objectivity when you throw around stupid numbers like that.

Yes, that is my position. Boo!

What is Yost's record this year against sub .500 teams? That is pretty much all the Cards have played so far. It's easy to say things like Yost would only have half the wins in LaRussa's shoes but try backing it up with something tangible. You will find there is a reson for the Cards hot start other than the manager "getting more out of his players." After the season ends I have little doubt the Brewers will be ahead of the Cards in the standing. The little doubt I do have is due to the uncertainty of injuries. Something that has already hit the Brewers harder than either the Cubs or Cards.

Forget the Cards have been missing their #1 and #2 pitchers all season, and the Cubs went 9-4 or something close without Soriano. The Brewers have suffered one real injury, and that was to a good but young pitcher. Saying the Brewers have been hit harder with injuries than the Cubs or Cards is not true in my opinion. Oh, and Yost's team is 6-6 vs. sub .500 teams. If they can't be over .500 vs. sub .500 teams, how can you possibly think the Brewers can be above .500 at all? Yost will not have this team above .500 at the end of this year (easily fathomable, even for the hardest core optimistic Brewers fan), so the only way the Brewers finish above the Cards is if the Cards are further below .500 than the Brewers. I have much doubt the Brewers can finish above the Cards, simply based on the facts that Ned Yost is the manager of the Brewers and Budweiser sells more beer than Miller.

[logan82]

jeffyscott wrote:

Yep, and I think because the bull pen pitchers are so conditioned to this idiocy of the "closer", any attmpt to do it differently is not likely to work because they will all freak out about it.

I wouldn't say they were conditioned unless you conditioned to like money. To me the bottom line is saves=big paycheck. So in many player's minds if they are the best reliever and they are not the closer, you are cheating them out of money.

[Roscoe Chill]

Well someone has been cheated out of money...and let's just say that it wasn't Eric Gagne.

[sheethead]

I'd love to see the Brewers replace Ned with Simmons if I thought that would mean a ride deep into October, but there is absolutely nothing to suggest that will be the result, as there is nothing to suggest it will result in any improvement what so ever.

 

What, may I ask, suggests that Ned Yost will equate to a ride deep into October? There is more to suggest that this will not happen than to suggest that Simmons can't do it. Its Yost's track record... stubbornness, poor decision making, cool losing, pressure folding track record. Not to mention those faces he is always making in the dugout. 3 out of 5 Ned faces make me cringe.

[Brewer Fever]

Isn't it telling that Yost's ejection inspires absolutely no signs of life from his team.

[afeter]

Isn't it telling that Yost's ejection inspires absolutely no signs of life from his team.

 

2 days too late. but thanks for trying ned.

[Brewer Fever]

Take away all the judgement calls, lineup tinkering, sending basebrunners, bullpen management, when to pinch-hit, and all general feel for the game type stuff that managers do and make your evaluation of Yost real simple...

 

Overall player performance is not improving. Yes, the talent level has definitely increased, but the same poor overall fundamental play is the same as when Ned arrived in Milwaukee. Every aspect of this team is either flat-lining or regressing. The still run the bases poorly. They still play poor defense. They still have no obvious approach at the plate. The pitchers still walk far too many hitters. They still don't know how to move a runner over. They still grossly lack in situation hitting. They still try and pull every outside pitch. They still strikeout way to much. That's all in spite of bringing in far more talented players, many of whom didn't carry these warts in the minors. New faces, same mistakes and same poor results. The one constant...Ned Yost.

 

Put it this way. In the business world, if every aspect of your business was either flat or worsening, would you sit back and not hold your managers accountable? Especially if this all took place over the span of 5+ years! The Brewers win totals have risen over the years, yes. Clearly because the talent level increased. And definitely not because they play more fundamentally sound. I'd venture that the Tyler Houston's and Eric Young's ran the bases no more poorly, or moved runners over with no less success.

 

You don't even have to agree that Yost makes tactical or in-game mistakes. All you have to do is take a moment and realize that no matter the personel, he and his constantly reshaped staff are not overseeing any improvement in the fundamental aspects of the game. And in many aspects there is decline.

 

I can't comprehend how Mark A. can sit back and watch his investements take step after step backwards and do nothing about the man whose job it is to make them better ballplayers. It is a glaringly imperfect match to have a manager who shows no ability to develop young talent manage a team that will forever have to rely on young talent.

[bigredrobbo]

Ned's got to go, simply because this tiresome argument is as depressing as watching the team at the moment.

[tigerbrew]

Dear Doug Melvin, please replace Yost asap. Frankly, you should have done that last season, but instead you picked up Ned's option and "forgot" to tell the media about it.