Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 2)

[Thurston Fluff]

I was referring to Gwynn hitting at an acceptable level at the age of 30.]

 

you won't see me argueing that point. Then again I'm sure none of us would have thought Dillon would have been anything more than AAA filler at age 30.

 

I see what you're saying now. But you also have to take into account that Gwynn's numbers are partially because of his speed. As I mentioned earlier, he seems to get a lot of infield hits and drag bunts for hits. Those kinds of things most likely won't work well when there's a force at any base and two outs. Dillon has a much better shot of driving the ball into the outfield, which, other than perhaps a walk, is what we needed.

 

Point taken though I think we can both agree that differance is quite small. I understand the arguement that Ned should be putting the best possible player in every situation even when those differances are relatively minor. My thought is there comes a time when players need to make such minute differances irrelavant. If the only way a team can win is if the manager makes the perfect choice 100% of the time then it's time to get better players or find something no one has found yet... the perfect person.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

I think we should change the name of this thread to "Are the starting pitchers who can't go more than 5 innings and the lineup who can't hardly slug for .400 stifling this team"

 

Come on guys. Yost has nothing to do with the Brewers losing the Houston series. Give the guy a break. Or at least a cup of coffee. He might even buy you one too. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[adambr2]

I believe the Brewers could not be any worse off with a different manager.

 

I'm sure anyone who suffered through Davie Lopes and Jerry Royster would disagree with you on this point.

 

 

Royster was a lousy manager, but give Yost the talent that Royster had to work with and he doesn't win much either.

 

I'm glad we had our first winning season in 15 years last season, but it came about because we built a talented team and tripled our payroll in the last 5 years, not because we have a genius baseball mind leading the way.

[mothershipconnection]

but give Yost the talent that Royster had to work with and he doesn't win much either.

 

Why can't you admit that he simply failed to motivate Glendon Rusch, Quevedo, Jamey Wright, Nelson Figueroa, Jose Cabrera, and Ben Diggins? http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Postseason2006]

I believe the Brewers could not be any worse off with a different manager.

 

I'm sure anyone who suffered through Davie Lopes and Jerry Royster would disagree with you on this point.

 

 

Royster was a lousy manager, but give Yost the talent that Royster had to work with and he doesn't win much either.

 

I'm glad we had our first winning season in 15 years last season, but it came about because we built a talented team and tripled our payroll in the last 5 years, not because we have a genius baseball mind leading the way.

 

Ding Ding Ding. We have a winner. Royster had arguably worst talent in Milwaukee's history that year and had little to work with. Nelson Figueroa was a starter for Pete's sake and we had Mike Honey De Jean as our closer. Good lord. Ned wouldn't be able to muster 66 wins with that club.

 

Some Brewer fans seem so content on being decent and just .500 instead actually winning a division title. There is no reason we shouldn't win with what we have now even with Gallardo down. The Brewers have enough talent on offense to overcome that loss but are dropping the ball.

[RU Rah Rah]

I think, too, that we're dealing with expectations here. After surmounting the .500 barrier, the overall expectation for the Brewers -- among fans, players, management, the media -- is the post-season. Anything less than that will be a significant disappointment, and Ned will shoulder the blame.

 

Whether it's "fair," in an absolute sense, is almost irrelevant here. The fact is, managers get canned when there is a perception that their teams are underachieving. They become the fall guys.

[Thurston Fluff]

Royster was a lousy manager, but give Yost the talent that Royster had to work with and he doesn't win much either.

He would have won more than that team did though. I don't think the first season Yost was here was nany better than that team. Yost did manage the lowest payroll team of the three to better results than Royster did. I have no doubt Yost would not have sat an allstar shortstop the last series of the season so he could avoid the strikeout record he so richly deserved for the second straight year. No, Yost would not have won much with the team Royster had but he certainly would have won more. if only because he would not let the team quit like Royster did. To this day it is the only season where I stopped watching before the final game. I didn't see why I should keep going when the team quit. I will never forgive any manager who lets that happen.

Some Brewer fans seem so content on being decent and just .500 instead actually winning a division title. There is no reason we shouldn't win with what we have now even with Gallardo down. The Brewers have enough talent on offense to overcome that loss but are dropping the ball.

We are winning aren't we? Even though the "talent" we have is ranked in the bottom half of pretty much every important category in both pitching and hitting. Once this team gets to the Pirates and Nationals of the league we will have the same sort of surge the Cubs had when they fed off them. BTW the Cubs just maanged to lose two of three to both the Brewers and Cards. Maybe now that they are done feeding on the sisters of the poor they will have all the same issues as the Brewers did. Lets see if their talent/manager does any better agianst the stiffer competition on the road as the Brewers did before we just hand them the division. Same with the Cards. Lets see if they can withstand the injury bug as well as the Brewers before we just give up on the season. Remember last season the hot team out of the gate stayed home in October. The team struggling far worse than the Brewers are this year won the division. The fact that the Brewers are winning desite their struggles might be something we look back on at the end of the season and realize how important it was to steal a few games now.

This is probably not as much Yost related as it is Yost/Melvin being on the same page. But I thought it an interesting quote from Melvin in the JS.

"You stay with a closer as long as you can. If a hitter slumps for six weeks, you stay with him. Closers go in slumps, too. You give him the benefit of the doubt for now."

When we see Yost stick with a player too long it is an orginazational thing not just a Yost thing. Maybe the reason Melvin has not and will not fire Yost is because he believes Yost is doing the right thing with regard to struggling players.

[naivin]

There is no reason we shouldn't win with what we have now even with Gallardo down. The Brewers have enough talent on offense to overcome that loss but are dropping the ball.

To win what exactly? The World Series? No chance. The National League? Extremely unlikely. The NL Central? Probably not. The Wild Card? Possible, but not likely. Finish above .500? Yes, I believe the Brewers can do that without Gallardo, if Sheets makes 30+ starts.

 

Fact is, the game changed dramatically when Gallardo went down. A 1-2 punch at the top of the rotation of Ben Sheets and Jeff Suppan (or feel free to insert (Villanueva, Parra, Bush, Weaver, etc.), doesn't exactly scream playoffs, especially when the 1 in that 1-2 has demonstrated an inability to make it through a season. Even if he does, the drop off after that is pretty drastic.

[jazzytrav]

"You stay with a closer as long as you can. If a hitter slumps for six weeks, you stay with him. Closers go in slumps, too. You give him the benefit of the doubt for now."

A hitter is not a closer! Where does this comparison even work? Gah, I hate this "closer" crap. Throw someone out there that can finish the game. If Gagne doesn't like that and wants to cry about it then perhaps these guys aren't as "mature" as we thought. I have no doubt that Gagne can do the job well once he comes out of this, but there's no reason to let him work through it like this. Put him in a tie game in the 7th or something just for a change of scenery.

 

Seriously, this entire thread is about one group thinking Yost is a dink and the other group thinking the players suck. In that position, and I realize this is only my opinion, the manager takes the fall. Hell, if Ned was out there taking some of the blame right now I might even give him some credit. But he seems to be sitting there thinking he's doing everything right and the players are just ALL COLLECTIVELY STRUGGLING. Oh, I forgot, Gabe Kapler came out swinging hot. Anyone else find it curious that all the older vets are the ones hitting well and the young guys are struggling?

[sheethead]

I think, too, that we're dealing with expectations here. After surmounting the .500 barrier, the overall expectation for the Brewers -- among fans, players, management, the media -- is the post-season. Anything less than that will be a significant disappointment, and Ned will shoulder the blame.

 

Whether it's "fair," in an absolute sense, is almost irrelevant here. The fact is, managers get canned when there is a perception that their teams are underachieving. They become the fall guys.

 

What were the expectations for St Louis this year? Name their starting rotation without looking. Make Yost the manager there and they have 12 wins, not 21. Granted Royster was horrible and overmatched at the MLB level, but at least he wasnt crass and snippity on top of it.

[naivin]

Seriously, this entire thread is about one group thinking Yost is a dink and the other group thinking the players suck.

I don't think either one of those things. I think the players are pretty good this year, but as a whole haven't played real well, and I think the manager is fine, and taking teh correct approach with struggling players by not pushing the panic button or making drastic changes a month into a season with several new players in key positions.

 

Anyone else find it curious that all the older vets are the ones hitting well and the young guys are struggling?

Not in the least - especially since that isn't necessarily the case. First off, Braun and Fielder have gone a full season though the league and are cleraly being pitched differently, and they will be the first to tell you they need to adjust to that. HR's aside, Corey Hart is hitting .310. Hardy and Weeks haven't exactly been hitting machines over the course of their careers, so while they aren't doing well, their performace isn't all that unfamiliar, and Bill Hall seems to be having a fairly Bill Hall-like year. All of that said, Hall leads the team in HR's, Braun leads in RBI, Hart leads in AVG., and Fielder leads in OBP. Are their overall stats where you'd like them to be? No. Have they played 31 games of a 162 game schedule? Yes. So outside of Kendall who is basically doing what he has always done, and I suppose Cameron who has been here for grand total 6 games, who are these older vets that are performing so well relative to the young guys? Gabe Kapler who is 5 for 29 since April 15th?

[naivin]

What were the expectations for St Louis this year? Name their starting rotation without looking. Make Yost the manager there and they have 12 wins, not 21.

You know this how?

 

Just so we're clear, your position is that the difference between Ned Yost and Tony LaRussa is 44 wins in a 162 game schedule (.363 vs. .636)? Forgive me if I question you objectivity when you throw around stupid numbers like that.

[Thurston Fluff]

Anyone else find it curious that all the older vets are the ones hitting well and the young guys are struggling?

 

There are only two older vets in the everyday lineup and one has played 6 games. So that statement pretty much amounts to one guy and a bench player. Hart has done prety well so for every starting veteran postion player doing well there is a young guy to match. On the ptiching side Sheets is a vet but YoGa is/was young. Stetter as the only young reliever has done pretty well so far. Better than Gagne to this point anyway.

 

I have no doubt that Gagne can do the job well once he comes out of this, but there's no reason to let him work through it like this.

 

This is debateable. According to both Melvin and Yost there is reason to leave him, or any established player, work through it. If players start looking over their shoulder every time they go through a tough week or two they start to press and things can spiral from there. There is also no way of telling when someone will come out of a slump. I have no probelm with the idea of letting established players work their way through problems for a while. They have a history that shows what they can do and that history is probably more telling about what might happen next than a relatively short run of poor play. Playing the hot hand is something I think is useful when determineing who plays a particular game but I'm not a fan of replacing struggling players who have shown themselves to be useful over a long period of time over a couple weeks of poor play.

 

What were the expectations for St Louis this year? Name their starting rotation without looking. Make Yost the manager there and they have 12 wins, not 21.

 

What is Yost's record this year against sub .500 teams? That is pretty much all the Cards have played so far. It's easy to say things like Yost would only have half the wins in LaRussa's shoes but try backing it up with something tangible. You will find there is a reson for the Cards hot start other than the manager "getting more out of his players." After the season ends I have little doubt the Brewers will be ahead of the Cards in the standing. The little doubt I do have is due to the uncertainty of injuries. Something that has already hit the Brewers harder than either the Cubs or Cards.

[Bucky Rules]

Royster had arguably worst talent in Milwaukee's history that year and had little to work with. Nelson Figueroa was a starter for Pete's sake and we had Mike Honey De Jean as our closer. Good lord. Ned wouldn't be able to muster 66 wins with that club.

You can't seriously be making this point to demonstrate Yost's ineffectiveness. Yost DID manage that team the following year. You're right, though. Yost couldn't muster just 66 wins with that team. He won 68 games with virtually the same roster that Royster/Lopes won 56 games with. In fact, Yost won 68 games with a payroll that was almost 20% LOWER than the Royster/Lopes roster. And 67 games the following year after an additional 30+% cut in payroll.

 

Now, being better than Lopes/Royster proves nothing. But, that argument shows just how misguided and blinded some people are in their hatred for Ned.

 

 

(edit: long nested quote --1992)

[lukevan]

Seriously, this entire thread is about one group thinking Yost is a dink and the other group thinking the players suck.

 

I think what the second group of people are arguing is that firing Yost isn't going to magically make the players produce. I was just ripping Yost for the TGJ PH w/ the bases juiced a few posts back but the Yost "issue" gets far too much attention IMHO.

[jazzytrav]

I have no doubt that Gagne can do the job well once he comes out of this, but there's no reason to let him work through it like this.

 

This is debateable. According to both Melvin and Yost there is reason to leave him, or any established player, work through it. If players start looking over their shoulder every time they go through a tough week or two they start to press and things can spiral from there. There is also no way of telling when someone will come out of a slump. I have no probelm with the idea of letting established players work their way through problems for a while. They have a history that shows what they can do and that history is probably more telling about what might happen next than a relatively short run of poor play. Playing the hot hand is something I think is useful when determineing who plays a particular game but I'm not a fan of replacing struggling players who have shown themselves to be useful over a long period of time over a couple weeks of poor play.

I'll admit that most of my post was just mindless ranting because I hate the use of the term "closer" like it's some sort of position player. I just don't think that you can compare a hitter with a closer. He's a glorified relief pitcher, that's all.

 

The part that I'm quoting here is the part that I stand by, though. I'm not saying throw him into mop-up duty, but there are other stressful situations that he can be put in that will at least get him away from this idea of being a "closer" and the added pressure that comes from us labeling it. And I think that's a key point. This was never that big of a deal until we made it a big deal. As I said, Gagne can work the 7th of a tied game and still be in a pressure situation. And I'm not just saying that because Gagne is struggling; I'm saying it because it's costing the team wins. If he doesn't blow those 5 saves, we're 21-10 right now. There were plenty of opportunities to try something new. There was an opportunity to have Shouse go out against mostly lefties in the 9th, but he was wasted in the 7th against one less-talented hitter. There were opportunities to have someone else close it so he doesn't have to go 4 games in a row. He definitely didn't need to go 5 in a row, but Ned had him warming up for it. So what does he do then? Get him up the next game, too. Bullpen management is not so set in stone as Yost seems to make it, and I'm so sick of hearing that every other manager does it this way, too. Who cares what every other manager does? Does Ned really have to do things that way just because everyone else before him said so?

[olliegjw]

If he doesn't blow those 5 saves, we're 21-10 right now.

Guess you don't watch the games. The Brewers won 3 of those 5 blown saves.

[logan82]

jazzytrav wrote:

The part that I'm quoting here is the part that I stand by, though. I'm not saying throw him into mop-up duty, but there are other stressful situations that he can be put in that will at least get him away from this idea of being a "closer" and the added pressure that comes from us labeling it. And I think that's a key point. This was never that big of a deal until we made it a big deal. As I said, Gagne can work the 7th of a tied game and still be in a pressure situation.

I actually disagree with this. I would rather have a multi inning pitcher come in during the early innings and pitch a few innings rather than blow out the pen. I personally hate the closer designation and would prefer Torres, Riske and Mota to also pitch the 9th inning if they pitch the 8th and the pitcher's spot doesn't bat. That's not how things are done in MLB though. Not a Yost or Melvin thing.

[jazzytrav]

If he doesn't blow those 5 saves, we're 21-10 right now.

Guess you don't watch the games. The Brewers won 3 of those 5 blown saves.

Well that's embarrassing. I did watch the games, but I'm apparently not thinking past the surface today. Thanks for the correction.

[jazzytrav]

I actually disagree with this. I would rather have a multi inning pitcher come in during the early innings and pitch a few innings rather than blow out the pen. I personally hate the closer designation and would prefer Torres, Riske and Mota to also pitch the 9th inning if they pitch the 8th and the pitcher's spot doesn't bat.

I guess that's more or less the point. Just that there are other ways to work a bullpen. I would be fine with your example as well.

[1992casey]

Forgive me if I question you objectivity when you throw around stupid numbers like that.

 

Honestly, I don't agree with the numbers, either. But calling them "stupid" crosses the condescension line.

[BrewCrewForever]

I have been a pretty neutral guy on Yost. Don't hate him, not totally crazy about him. But a question I would like to know is if Yost were to be fired at some point during the season. Who would take over? Is Simmons a sure thing? Many have said he may walk if Yost is canned. Would Frank Kremblas be promoted from AAA? Or is there another option?

[Fatter than Joey]

Who would take over?

 

As much as I dislike Yost, when the rubber meets the road, I am not very keen on a mid-season change. I don't know the answer to your question, and unless some very inspired choice became available, I am pretty content to let the season ride out, and fire everyone at the end of the year.

 

I think the Brewers will win .500 of their games -- if we really started circling the toilet that would be different, but I don't think a mid-season manager change with a bunch of young kids is what the Dr. ordered.

[LaprilOne]

Does Sparky Anderson still walk among the living?

[Fatter than Joey]

Yes -- I think he is ill however.