Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 2)

[Oldcity]

My friends can tell you I went on a pretty epic tirade when Gwynn hit in the sixth with bases loaded and two outs over Dillon on Saturday. That was probably my most frustrating Yosting of the year.

[jeffy]

Joe Dilion vs RH's in Nashville in 2007:

 

.322/.408/.605

 

Dillon is a vastly superior hitter

Nashville??? The Brewers are a major league team.

 

Dillon's major league career stats vs. RH : .228/.268/.359/.627

TGJ: .262/.316/.325/.640

[jazzytrav]

Neither Gwynn nor Dillon have a large enough sample to make such a claim based solely on Major League statistics. Ryan Braun did really well in Nashville, and that translates into being a very good major leaguer. Obviously there is a difference between Nashville and the big club, but when players haven't been in the league for very long, it's perfectly acceptable to use minor league statistics.

 

Also, if we use those major league statistics, I would still rather have Dillon and his SLG when the bases are loaded and two outs and we need a lot of runs. Gwynn gets his numbers from drag bunts and infield singles. Those don't work very well with the bases loaded and a force at any base.

[MJLiverock]

My friends can tell you I went on a pretty epic tirade when Gwynn hit in the sixth with bases loaded and two outs over Dillon on Saturday. That was probably my most frustrating Yosting of the year.

Not ot pick on you Steveo about this since I have seen in posted many times but what is wrong with Gwynn at that point? So you would have hated getting a 2 run scoring single and keeping the inning alive and would rather hope for the mythic 5 run home run?

I don't get the vitrol for using Gwynn in that situation, he represented the best chance of keeping the inning going by not making an out, which the Brewers needed since they were down by so much. The general consensus on this board is seemingly OBP is best (or alternatively not making outs) so why all of a sudden with the bases loaded is a HR the only acceptable outcome from an AB?

[jazzytrav]

So you would have hated getting a 2 run scoring single and keeping the inning alive and would rather hope for the mythic 5 run home run?

A single with the bases loaded and two outs usually requires getting the ball to the outfield.

[TheCrew07]

Using 2 guys stats who've never been starters and haven't aquired a full season's worth of AB yet is a little extreme to say the least. Dillon has a grand total of 122 ABs, Gwynn 217.

 

A much more fair comparison is their minor league careers.

 

Joe Dillon

10 Seasons 885 3162 566 934 215 23 152 569 423 597 .295 .379 .522 .901 60 28 68% 0 14 7 14 23

 

That's a .295 average, .379OBP, .522 SLG, and a 901 OPS

 

Tony Gwynn

6 Seasons 480 1865 285 511 73 18 8 168 214 299 .274 .350 .345 .695 118 47 72% 10 6 2 8 22

 

.274 Ave, .350 OBP, .345 SLG, and a whopping 695 OPS

 

 

Dillon is the vastly superior hitter, it's not even close. In fact if you take Dillon's injury plagued seasons out of the mix the disparity is even greater, but that's a different discussion. My 2 biggest gripes about Yost are how he used Corey Hart early and how Dillon is being used now.

[MJLiverock]

So you would have hated getting a 2 run scoring single and keeping the inning alive and would rather hope for the mythic 5 run home run?

A single with the bases loaded and two outs usually requires getting the ball to the outfield.

Right I forgot, TGJ has never hit the ball out of the infield. What is his BA these days? Or alternatively I should get in the camp of we should have kept Gabe ".188" Gross for these situations because once in a blue moon he hits a HR.

[shelmark]

I don't know the answer the questions I am about to pose, but would rather like to hear the opinions of others. Is it possible that these players feel too comfortable playing for Yost? Is it possible for a manager to really inspire big league players? Is so, is he not doing this? Is it possible that the younger players are leveling off? Because of Yost? I'm not in the fire Yost club. I think his decisions thus far have been fine. We all know that we are not hitting, but the question is why? Are we just not that good? Slow start? Too many questions for one post, but I think we need a few more weeks before we have answers.

[Glennron]

Joe Dillon has gap power and a decent amount of home runs in the minor leagues. Tony Gwynn Jr. has neither of those. Dillon is easily the better option in that situation, and like others have said, it's not even close.

[MJLiverock]

Minors? What about High School ball? or American Legion? If minor league stats were all that then Joe Dillon would be an all star.

[brewers19]

Yes, Joe Dillon probably had more power than Tony Gwynn Jr. in those places as well.

[lukevan]

Not only does Dillon have more power, he's also probably more likely to get on base. I don't understand why Dillon hasn't gotten many opportunites to PH considering we need a bat off the bench with at least a sniff of power.

[MJLiverock]

But again why does it have to be power in that situation? It was 6-2 in the 6th inning why is it necessary to have a HR or extra base hit? Neither wins the game there is plenty of time left and why not use the option most likely to keep the inning alive. Were you screaming when JJ took a walk instead of swinging for the fences when he was at the plate just before TGJ?

 

If Gwynn gets a single there nobody is complaining now all of a sudden because he made an out Yost screwed up. Yost makes me scratch my head plenty of times but using Gwynn there is not out of the realm of reasonableness. I can just imagine the gnashing of teeth if he used Dillon in a RH vs. RH match up and Dillon making an out.

[MJLiverock]

Not only does Dillon have more power, he's also probably more likely to get on base. I don't understand why Dillon hasn't gotten many opportunites to PH considering we need a bat off the bench with at least a sniff of power.

Except for the career numbers that JeffreyScott posted showing Gwynn more likely to get on base vs. a RH'er than Dillon.

 

Gwynn vs. RH .262/.316/.325 Gwynn +.048 in OBP

Dillon vs. RH .228/.268/.359 Dillon +.034 in SLG

 

I just don't see using Gwynn in that situation as some egregious offense in managing a game.

 

 

[lukevan]

why not use the option most likely to keep the inning alive.

 

is that necessarily Gwynn?

[lukevan]

showing Gwynn more likely to get on base vs. a RH'er than Dillon.

 

and I believe the next post already mentioned how that sample size is basically irrelevant.

[shelmark]

This is a Yost thread, and while the decision to use Gwynn over Dillon is obviously relevant, how long must it go on?? Are we seriously going to roast or toast Yost for a Gwynn vs. Dillon PH appearance. Egad.

[jazzytrav]

Right I forgot, TGJ has never hit the ball out of the infield. What is his BA these days? Or alternatively I should get in the camp of we should have kept Gabe ".188" Gross for these situations because once in a blue moon he hits a HR.

His career BA in the majors is .274, and that number has a lot to do with infield singles and drag bunts, as I stated earlier. But infield singles and drag bunts don't help with the bases loaded and 2 outs.

 

As for Gwynn, his career OBP in the majors in .321. Gross so far this year, even though his average is .188, he has a .333 OBP. So if you're talking about extending the inning with the bases loaded and 2 outs, I'll take Gross or Dillon any day over Gwynn.

[TheCrew07]

But again why does it have to be power in that situation?

It's not about power, it's about getting on base any way you can to score a run and Dillon has a better career OBP than TGJ.

 

Please stop using MLB stats, there isn't enough data there to validate your arguments. I already posted how many careers ABs both players have and their isn't enough information there to drawn any definitive conclusions on their MLB numbers.

 

Dillon is the superior hitter in any situation except a bunt, there shouldn't be any question, that's a statistical fact. Therefore, bases loaded and a pinch hitter coming to plate, it would stand to reason that you want your best pinch hitter to take that AB. Once again, Dillon is superior to Gwynn in every single offensive category... Ave, OBP, SLG, OPS.... Gwynn is fine as a defensive replacement, but offensively he's about as intimidating as Pierre, without the blazing the speed.

 

Gwynn generally only takes ABs in platoon situations where he's getting the maximum stat protection because he doesn't face many lefties. Dillon has never been part of a platoon, which skews their MLB numbers. As many have pointed out, if you want to compare apples to apple then compare their minor league numbers, you can even include TGJ's college numbers and he's still not close to the hitter that Dillon is.

[Thurston Fluff]

So Dillon gets the nod becuase he was never quite good enough to get to the bigs until his 30's? Of those minor league numbers how many came as he played agianst kids just learning to play at the same level he repeated several times? I like Dillon and think he should be getting his ab's as well but to say Dillon, a career minor leaguer until this year, is vastly superior to Gwynn ignores the fact that Dillon put up some of those numbers at an age Gwynn has yet to reach. I'd expect Gwynn at 30 to be able to handle AAA pitching pretty well also.

 

I believe the Brewers could not be any worse off with a different manager.

 

I'm sure anyone who suffered through Davie Lopes and Jerry Royster would disagree with you on this point.

 

While the players have definitely not done their part this year, I doubt Yost has done anything at all to inspire them.

 

If a major league player needs inspiration they need to change proffessions. Especially young players or ones without a WS ring. Inspiration isn't the problem lack of hitting or pitching is.

 

To me it says that they're just like any other player in the league that needs to be put in a position to succeed, but we have this unreasonable expectation out of our players to succeed in any situation at any given time.

 

If the player is an everyday player just what postions should the manager expect them not to be able to handle? Pinch hitting is not nearly the problem as everyday players hitting below 250 at nearly every postion is the main problem. Same goes with pitching. Starters are expected to go 6. if they can't then the idea of them not being put in postion to win is completely differant than the manager's main goal of getting the most wins in a season. Every starter with few exceptions should be expected to pitch 6 and keep their team in the game. So far that has not happened with any regularity. The closer should be expected to close games. What postion is he supposed put Gagne in other than closing situations? it's not like many of Gagne's closing situation were of a real tough variety.

 

I'm not saying he hasn't made any good moves, but I'm curious as to what you believe they are? I don't think there's been any one game where Yost clearly cost the Brewers a win, but there's certainly some moves that are questionable, ie: Gagne 4th day in a row in Cincinnati, Gwynn coming up in big RBI situations in key points in the game, and probably some more. Again, I'm not saying he hasn't made any good moves, but I want to know what you think that he did that helped the Brewers win that the players could not otherwise do themselves.

 

I'm not going to recall every specific but he's handles the bullpen generally pretty well IMO. A major change form last year though that may simply be to havng better pitchers to work with. He managed the shortest bench in the league for a 10 day period and played with bascially a 24 man roster while Sheets was out. I thought the way he managed Turnbow all year was quite good. Some may argue that but he did keep Turnbow out of crucial games until he heard some grumbleing from T-Bow. Then Turnbow was given enough chances in tighter games to show himself and failed. Now Turnbow and, more importantly, all his teammates see Ned doing what he has to. Not making knee jerk reactions after one bad stretch or a bad outing. He gave Turnbow nobody to blame but himslef and now everyone involved sees A- Ned will give you a chance if you have some history of effectiveness and B- nobody gets a free ride forever. They have to be effective when they are given a chance.

[jazzytrav]

I like Dillon and think he should be getting his ab's as well but to say Dillon, a career minor leaguer until this year, is vastly superior to Gwynn ignores the fact that Dillon put up some of those numbers at an age Gwynn has yet to reach. I'd expect Gwynn at 30 to be able to handle AAA pitching pretty well also.

This is ignoring the fact the Dillon did, in fact, have those numbers. If Gwynn can handle AAA pitching pretty well when he's 30, then perhaps he would be a good PH in that given situation when he's 30. But right now, he's not and Dillon is.

 

I believe the Brewers could not be any worse off with a different manager.

 

I'm sure anyone who suffered through Davie Lopes and Jerry Royster would disagree with you on this point.

Touche. I'll give you this one BC http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

If a major league player needs inspiration they need to change proffessions. Especially young players or ones without a WS ring.

But I think it's important to remember just how young these guys are and stop expecting them to have the maturity of a grizzled vet. They do need inspiration, as well as direction, motivation, and role models. Prince is only 22. I can't imagine where I would be, even though I'm only 26 now, if I hadn't had all those things surrounding me from competent people when I was 21-22.

[Fatter than Joey]

I'd expect Gwynn at 30 to be able to handle AAA pitching pretty well also.

 

I don't see where he is going to develop any power.

[Thurston Fluff]

This is ignoring the fact the Dillon did, in fact, have those numbers. If Gwynn can handle AAA pitching pretty well when he's 30, then perhaps he would be a good PH in that given situation when he's 30. But right now, he's not and Dillon is.

 

True but misses the point somewhat. Gwynn was putting up those numbers as a maturing young player. Dillon did so as an older player sort of preying on younger pitchers who were still developing. To me those numbers are more than a bit misleading with regard to how well they compare this year at this level.

 

I don't see where he is going to develop any power.

 

As was mentioned before the stiuation we are talking about didn't necessarily call for power. It called for getting on base. If the game was tied or we had nobady on and two ouot Dillon would have been the better choice. That wasn't the situation though. To be honest I wouldn't have had a problem with either one of them in that situation. well actually I have a probelm that they are the choice but that's another discussion al together. It really was six of one half a dozen of the other. That is more or less the point. Just because Ned didn't chose the person one of us would have doesn't necessarily make it the wrong choice. There are plenty of situations were a choice is less about who is better than who gets their shot to show what they can do.

[Fatter than Joey]

As was mentioned before the stiuation we are talking about didn't necessarily call for power

 

I was referring to Gwynn hitting at an acceptable level at the age of 30.

[jazzytrav]

This is ignoring the fact the Dillon did, in fact, have those numbers. If Gwynn can handle AAA pitching pretty well when he's 30, then perhaps he would be a good PH in that given situation when he's 30. But right now, he's not and Dillon is.

 

True but misses the point somewhat. Gwynn was putting up those numbers as a maturing young player. Dillon did so as an older player sort of preying on younger pitchers who were still developing. To me those numbers are more than a bit misleading with regard to how well they compare this year at this level.

I see what you're saying now. But you also have to take into account that Gwynn's numbers are partially because of his speed. As I mentioned earlier, he seems to get a lot of infield hits and drag bunts for hits. Those kinds of things most likely won't work well when there's a force at any base and two outs. Dillon has a much better shot of driving the ball into the outfield, which, other than perhaps a walk, is what we needed.