Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 2)

[MadisonBrewerBlue]

whats the over/under on ned making it till June 1 ? this team is falling flat on its face. in 82 the brewers fired buck rodgers with a 23-24 record and harvey kuehn righted the ship and took them to the world series.

[bklynbrewcrew]

Brewer Fever hit the nail on the head. This team is completely undisciplined and has not improved in this area at all. How many times are we going to watch the Brewers score early and absolutely shut down there offense for the remaining 5 plus innings. Nothing has changed with this team and nothing will until Yost gets fired.

[craigharmann]

Ned needs to be fired. He, his coffeemaker and everything else that he brings. I can see no way that Ned takes this team in the next few years over the hump and turns them into a consistent winner. This team is struggling, isn't hitting, is playing awful defense, and is giving up homers to PITCHERS!! What more reason do you need? (Quasi-serious on the last one)

[RU Rah Rah]

I have a convoluted opinion about all of this. I've never been a Ned fan, but I don't think he's primarily responsible for the team's recent woes. (I'd put his badness pretty far down the list of the team's problems.) And yet I think it's possible that he might get the boot, depending on what happens over the next couple of months, especially if the team is floundering by the All-Star break (say, 5+ games below .500). I think DM could easily say, "We thought we had all of the pieces in place, but we're not performing up to expectations, etc., etc."

 

Do I think it's likely? No. He's DM's horse, and he's probably going to get ridden for awhile yet.

[Thurston Fluff]

How can it be said that Ned consitantly makes bad decisions when he manages a team that is 26th in BA, 16th in runs, 22nd in hits, 20th in OBP, 17th in SLG, 24th in ERA, 24th in walks, and 28th in WHIP and still has a winning record? That despite the playing the most road games in baseball so far aginst one of the tougher schedules so far. Somewhere he must have made a few good moves. It hard to imagine he's costed this team games and this team is just that good that they still have won more than they've lost. Not if you look at how poor the players have played so far anyway.

[brewcrew00]

Good post Backupcatchers, it's time for the players to start stepping up.

[jeffy]

I've never been a Ned fan, but I don't think he's primarily responsible for the team's recent woes. And yet I think it's possible that he might get the boot, depending on what happens over the next couple of months, especially if the team is floundering by the All-Star break (say, 5+ games below .500). I think DM could easily say, "We thought we had all of the pieces in place, but we're not performing up to expectations, etc., etc."

Sure, the manager is always the one to get fired, if the team under-performs. They are not going to fire all the players.

[jazzytrav]

How can it be said that Ned consitantly makes bad decisions when he manages a team that is 26th in BA, 16th in runs, 22nd in hits, 20th in OBP, 17th in SLG, 24th in ERA, 24th in walks, and 28th in WHIP and still has a winning record? That despite the playing the most road games in baseball so far aginst one of the tougher schedules so far. Somewhere he must have made a few good moves. It hard to imagine he's costed this team games and this team is just that good that they still have won more than they've lost. Not if you look at how poor the players have played so far anyway.

I guess what this tells me is that the team is underperforming and somehow winning games. If they actually had someone that could help them perform, perhaps they would win more games.

 

Also, those numbers can sometimes reflect the manager. Not pulling someone at the right time affects ERA. Putting TGJ in any situation affects SLG. I guess I just don't understand sitting here saying that nothing is Ned's fault and that it's all on the players. What the hell does Ned do then? These players have performed in the past, so there's no reason to think they don't have the ability. It's the manager that needs to get the most out of his players. You can point to some string of luck that has us barely above .500 and say that Ned is somehow the reason for this, or you can watch his decisions in-game and decide for yourself.

[brewcrew00]

I don't think anyone is saying "nothing" is Ned or the staff's fault. There does come a point where the players have to perform, not everything falls on the manager either.

[naivin]

Sure, the manager is always the one to get fired, if the team under-performs. They are not going to fire all the players.

After the hitting and/or pitching coach of course. They are almost always the first to go in an absolutely meaningless and completely ineffective way to make something happen.

[FVBrewerFan]

I've said this before, but maybe it's time I repeat it. I think we all spend too much time debating if firing Yost is justified or not. Except in rare cases, it is nearly impossible to prove a Manager or Head Coach in any pro sport needs to be replaced. Usually, and I think this is the case with the Brewers, sometimes it's worth repacling the Manager just to shake things up. The "It's worth a try" approach if you will.

 

For whatever reason, most pro teams tune out the Manager of Head Coach after a while. When that happens, it is over. But again, that is very difficult to prove. What you can prove is Ned Yost had two historical collapses and now he's off to a less than encouraging start in 2008. There's still plenty of time, no reason to panic before the All Star break. Frankly, I don't feel strongly either way. If he gets fired, maybe it turns things around.

[jazzytrav]

Sure, the manager is always the one to get fired, if the team under-performs. They are not going to fire all the players.

After the hitting and/or pitching coach of course. They are almost always the first to go in an absolutely meaningless and completely ineffective way to make something happen.

Prove it. Prove that it's meaningless and ineffective.

[naivin]

No thanks. I don't kow that I could, nor do I really care. I was simply pointing out that hitting and pitching coaches are often the first victims on struggling teams, and based on little more than my owm memory, it generally doesn't translate into any tangible results. If you want to prove that it does make a difference, have at it.

[jazzytrav]

I'm not getting into a burden of proof argument here. But don't say something is "absolutely meaningless and completely ineffective" if you don't have anything to back it up.

[naivin]

Yes sir.

[Fear The Chorizo]

I think Yost is the scapegoat for far too many of this teams' shortcomings. We've heard nothing but great things about all these up and coming young prospects who are surefire MLB stars...all of them have warts, and those warts often get overlooked by everyone, myself included. We all want the young players on the roster to succeed so much that when they struggle we think there has to be some other reason for it other than the player himself.

 

The pitching staff has gone from having a surplus of middling starters to very little depth, and the bullpen is ready to implode (part of that blame goes to Gagne, who can't keep blowing saves and sending this team to extras, and part goes to the ineptitude of the early season offense so far). Yost may not be the best bullpen manager in baseball, but I think he also has far from one of the best bullpens to work with, too. When your key relievers can't stop walking guys, you're screwed no matter what you do.

 

If this team is going to compete, they have to start scoring alot more runs, and take some of the strain off a fragile pitching staff.

 

with all that said, this team is still over .500, 3.5 games behind a surprising Cardinals team, and in the midst of a second 9-game road trip already in early May...I'm concerned, but not jumping off a ledge any time soon

[Invader3K]

I do think that this season is going to determine whether or not Yost continues to be employed by the Brewers. However, I think firing him mid-season is basically waving the white flag. Everyone points to the managerial change in 1982 as a blueprint for succss, but this team doesn't have the proven veterans that the '82 team did (other than a couple guys like Kendall and Cameron). We have put a lot of faith in these young guys, and maybe some of it has been unfounded, to a point. I hate to say it, but we have to accept that not all of our young position players may emerge as effective everyday starters.

[Bucky Rules]

How can it be said that Ned consitantly makes bad decisions when he manages a team that is 26th in BA, 16th in runs, 22nd in hits, 20th in OBP, 17th in SLG, 24th in ERA, 24th in walks, and 28th in WHIP and still has a winning record? That despite the playing the most road games in baseball so far aginst one of the tougher schedules so far. Somewhere he must have made a few good moves. It hard to imagine he's costed this team games and this team is just that good that they still have won more than they've lost. Not if you look at how poor the players have played so far anyway.

I guess what this tells me is that the team is underperforming and somehow winning games. If they actually had someone that could help them perform, perhaps they would win more games.

 

Also, those numbers can sometimes reflect the manager. Not pulling someone at the right time affects ERA. Putting TGJ in any situation affects SLG. I guess I just don't understand sitting here saying that nothing is Ned's fault and that it's all on the players. What the hell does Ned do then? These players have performed in the past, so there's no reason to think they don't have the ability. It's the manager that needs to get the most out of his players. You can point to some string of luck that has us barely above .500 and say that Ned is somehow the reason for this, or you can watch his decisions in-game and decide for yourself.

If your argument is that the team numbers suffer because of Ned playing his guys in bad situations, then certainly you can point to several individual players outperforming their expectations, but simply haven't been used enough in said situations. You'd be hard pressed to find any hitter on the team matching reasonable expectations with the exceptions of Kapler and Kendall. Everyone else has underperformed - some to a great degree. And that's Yost's fault, how???

 

Same with the pitchers except Sheets.

 

... and yet they're still a game over .500. Yes, by all means, let's fire the manager.

 

[jazzytrav]

It's almost surreal how everyone is defending Yost during the day and ready to fire him at night. I'm not saying that people are changing their opinions, but just that during the day the people that post in this thread are generally supportive of Ned. Then nighttime comes and different people are generally all ripping on Ned. Strange...

[Glennron]

How can it be said that Ned consitantly makes bad decisions when he manages a team that is 26th in BA, 16th in runs, 22nd in hits, 20th in OBP, 17th in SLG, 24th in ERA, 24th in walks, and 28th in WHIP and still has a winning record? That despite the playing the most road games in baseball so far aginst one of the tougher schedules so far. Somewhere he must have made a few good moves. It hard to imagine he's costed this team games and this team is just that good that they still have won more than they've lost. Not if you look at how poor the players have played so far anyway.

I'm not saying he hasn't made any good moves, but I'm curious as to what you believe they are? I don't think there's been any one game where Yost clearly cost the Brewers a win, but there's certainly some moves that are questionable, ie: Gagne 4th day in a row in Cincinnati, Gwynn coming up in big RBI situations in key points in the game, and probably some more. Again, I'm not saying he hasn't made any good moves, but I want to know what you think that he did that helped the Brewers win that the players could not otherwise do themselves.

[Thurston Fluff]

Also, those numbers can sometimes reflect the manager. Not pulling someone at the right time affects ERA. Putting TGJ in any situation affects SLG.

 

While a manager can make someone's numbers look better they won't help win games over the course of 162 games if the pitcher gets pulled after 5 innings becasue his ERA would go up. A starter has to be expected to go six. A closer has to be expected to save a game with a two run lead. Ned could have made Gagne's numbers look better if he had pulled him after one run but that would only lead to more problems later. TGJ is on the team so if he has to be used it isn't Ned's fault it's Doug's.

 

I guess I just don't understand sitting here saying that nothing is Ned's fault and that it's all on the players.

 

 

I've always wondered why critics always fgelt it was Ned and never seemed to realize the players he has haven't done squat yet. The point I was making is if the players are playing poorly and Ned is a poor manager how the heck is this team still winning? Some of those moves he's made must have helped somewhere along the line.

 

What the hell does Ned do then? These players have performed in the past, so there's no reason to think they don't have the ability. It's the manager that needs to get the most out of his players. You can point to some string of luck that has us barely above .500 and say that Ned is somehow the reason for this, or you can watch his decisions in-game and decide for yourself.[/i]

 

Ned has shown he can get it out of these very same players in the past though. Prince hit 50 homers and is now so feared he routinely gets pitched around. Hart has been consistantly good. Hall was pretty much a borderline prospect until Ned came along. Ned has also done some things with players who have't been very good the last couple years. Kendall has improved over his last couple years so far. Mota is another. If the players are not performing now it isn't the manager who isn't getting everything out of them IMO since the very same manager got more out of them in the past or is getting more out of players than the last manager they played for did. As far as putting them in position to succeed that sounds all well and good but if they can only be put in certain situations or they fail what does that tell you about the player? To me it says they aren't very good. I have heard all the games and have made my decision. To me it has nothing to do with Ned's choices this year. In the past I agreed he wasn't the greatest in game manager but liked him for other reasons. This year I don't get he critisism he gets for his in game moves. I think he's been much improved in that area. Whether it's due to Simmons or him learning from his past mistakes I don't know. I do think ultimatley the players are the ones who have let this team down so far. Yet despite all that has went wrong so far Ned has managed to get more wins out of less production under tougher circumstances than any other manager in the league so far. I just don't see why people can't accept maybe they are winning because of him vs in spite of him. Because so far it certanly isn't the players production or the schedule makers that have been the key to a winning record.

[jazzytrav]

As far as putting them in position to succeed that sounds all well and good but if they can only be put in certain situations or they fail what does that tell you about the player? To me it says they aren't very good.

To me it says that they're just like any other player in the league that needs to be put in a position to succeed, but we have this unreasonable expectation out of our players to succeed in any situation at any given time. TGJ is a slap-hitter, so why put him in when there's a chance to win a game in an RBI situation. And I don't believe for a second that Yost was handcuffed to that decision because Dillon was sitting right there on the bench.

 

That's why we have a manager...to put them in position to be successful. That's the goal of any manager, to put your employees in the position to be successful. If you want to work on things with them, there are times to do that outside of the game.

[sheethead]

I believe the Brewers could not be any worse off with a different manager. While the players have definitely not done their part this year, I doubt Yost has done anything at all to inspire them. I say this because he has not inspired me to believe he is a competent manager.

[jeffy]

TGJ is a slap-hitter, so why put him in when there's a chance to win a game in an RBI situation.

 

He was put in because he is a left-handed hitter. Joe Dillon's career stats vs. right handers are not any better than TGJ's vs. right handers.

[endaround]

Joe Dilion vs RH's in Nashville in 2007:

 

.322/.408/.605

 

Dillon is a vastly superior hitter