Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 2)

[Thurston Fluff]

2) We already hired Yost's replacement. He's sitting right next to Yost. The only question would be who do we bring in/up to be bench coach? Or do we move Sveum back to the bench and bring up a new 3rd base coach?

 

That's assuming he would be willing to take the job after managment fired one of his friends.

 

because he has done that before, and why else would he throw a struggling pitcher that is making his first start since an injury back out there? It's not like he was cruising along.

 

Because his pitcher is not injured anymore and the team has played the most extra inning games in the league. Because he remembers what happened to the bullpen last year when the starters continually came out early. If Sheets would have said one word about being sore or tired or anything that might have hinted at continueing problems with his triceps I'm as convinced Ned would have pulled him as you are Ned could be replaced by a helper monkey pulling names out of a hat. Regardless of what Sheet's somewhat minor injury status is if he is going to take up a roster spot he has to be competent enough to pitch five measley innings. The other thing that has to be taken into consideration is the best way to get Sheets back up to his usual standards is to actually have him pitch. What better way to get him back on track than let him work through the rust in game?

[Fatter than Joey]

You know this how?

 

Once the Brewers got the lead in the fifth, Sheets was allowed to hit. I think that they had a PHer up, but then after the Hall hit and the Hardy BB -- Sheets was allowed to hit for himself. I think had Hart been held up at 3b for whatever reason, and the game was tied -- a PHer would have been brought in.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that once that run scored and Sheets was eligible for the win -- he was going to pitch and complete the 5th.

 

I think it was important for Yost to get Sheets the W.

[endaround]

McClung was warming at that point. Sheets was in to get the win.

[strawbossisevil]

Either that, or Yost wanted him to get through 5 innings to spare the bullpen, but only felt comfortable leaving him out there for an additional inning if we had the lead.

 

It doesn't have to just be about the "W" in front of Sheet's name.

 

Its pure speculation on your part to think so.

[Fatter than Joey]

Either that, or Yost wanted him to get through 5 innings to spare the bullpen, but only felt comfortable leaving him out there for an additional inning if we had the lead

 

This does not make sense to me. I don't know how you "spare the BP" at the expense of Ben's arm -- when he was clearly laboring.

 

Its pure speculation on your part to think so.

 

Fair enough -- He could have picked the piece of paper that said "Keep Sheets in" out of the hat as well.

[brewcrew00]

If we win, it is in spite of what he did.

 

I know this quote is cut down (keep BF.net beautiful), but do you honestly think wins are out of spite towards the moves he makes?

And nice post Backupcatchers.

[brewcrew00]

I don't think he "spared the BP at the expense of Ben's arm." Even though Ben was off last night, I don't think he was laboring. At the first sign of physical trouble, Ben would have been removed. You know it's a conversation Ben, the training staff, and the coaching staff all have together if he is able to go. I agree with Backupcatchers what better place to knock the rust off than during live game situations.

 

edit

Back to back came due to posting a response to a post which came as I was posting my initial, sorry.

[Tbadder]

Interesting argument: I don't think we can deny that baseball is a culture whereby managers try to get their starters wins and their closers saves. Now there are other reasons to pull pitchers or bring them in, chiefly performance, but that isn't the only reason either. Pinch hitters, injuries, pitch counts, bullpen availability, etc. My point is the list is long and sometimes complex. I'm sure that Yost kept Sheets in the game last night despite the seven walks for more than one reason. So what I'm saying is that both sides of this argument seem valid and are not mutually exclusive. Intelligent speculation is hopefully what we do around here--it good, and right, and natural.

[naivin]

So if the Brewers had a good manager, what would their record be right now? What about after 162 games vs. what you expect it will be under Ned?

I am interested to hear the justification as well. I'd like to know exactly what people feel the actual impact is, both to this point and for the remainder of the season. Since so many of the losses are on Ned, I wonder what people feel the Brewers record would actually be. 26-0? 23-3? 19-7? Likewise for the remainder of the season. What and why?

[tosabrewfan]

I am not a huge Ned Yost fan, but I would like to point out that this constant hindsight **** is very frustrating. If Ned managed like half of the people here suggested, we would need to carry 17 pitchers. You simply cannot remove a pitcher everytime he faces a batter and the result is not a strikeout. It will always be easy to claim that a pitcher should have been pulled after giving up a run, or because his position in the order came up, but at the same time the Brewers have had a serious problem with overworking their bullpen. By constantly critizing all of Ned's decisions, you take away the credibility of the rest of us - who obviously only criticize Ned's really bone-headed decisions.

[strawbossisevil]

I agree. Personally, I have criticized Yost on a few occasions this season. He isn't above criticism. But the extent that some take it on this site is utterly ridiculous. I've come to the conclusion that some just enjoy fault finding. Some of the "faults" brought up in this thread have been stretches to say the least, many of them were moves that nearly every manager in the bigs would go with. The man can do no right with some on this site, and its sad that every night has basically become a Yost "fault" hunt, so they can come back here and talk about how "right" they have always been about Yost.

[jeffy]

I don't think we can deny that baseball is a culture whereby managers try to get their starters wins and their closers saves.

There may be even be good reasons for that, such as keeping the players motivated. I agree with you that there were probably multiple reasons why Sheets was kept in and giving him a shot at a W was likely one of them. Sheets probably deserved the shot, if he wanted it. He is a pitcher who often can succeed even without his "best stuff". He also has frequently pitched well enough to deserve a win and not gotten it due to lack of run support. The manager probably will not get as much as possible out of Ben Sheets throughout the season, if he insists on treating him the same as Manny Parra.

[Fatter than Joey]

I don't think we can deny that baseball is a culture whereby managers try to get their starters wins and their closers saves.

 

Absolutely -- Ben is in a contract year -- His "sore tricep" could be the lynchpin to millions of dollars for him. Is it worth it to Ben to go out there and "grit it out" for a no-decision, probably not. I'm sure that Yost getting Ben the W, (more money), is an effort by Yost to "reward" Ben for his gritty performance to help the Brewers.

 

We can discount the W, all we like here, but there is no question that if Ben hits 20 W's -- regardless of their legitimacy, he will get a very fat paycheck.

 

Even though Ben was off last night, I don't think he was laboring.

 

I think he was clearly laboring to locate his off-speed pitches. Sheets walked 4 guys in 21 IP up until last night's game -- he walked 7 in 5IP last night -- this isn't "seeing eye-grounders" -- I thought it was evident he was working really hard to get his breaking stuff over the plate.

 

I'd like to know exactly what people feel the actual impact is, both to this point and for the remainder of the season.

 

I think statistically people have boiled it down to a 3 game swing -- a good manager picks up three games for his team, a bad one loses 3. So the difference between Ned Yost (a bad manager) and a good manager is probably 5-6 games.

 

You simply cannot remove a pitcher everytime he faces a batter and the result is not a strikeout... By constantly critizing all of Ned's decisions, you take away the credibility of the rest of us

 

You take away your own credibility by making silly strawman arguments.

[jazzytrav]

I am not a huge Ned Yost fan, but I would like to point out that this constant hindsight **** is very frustrating.

There has been very little, if any, hindsight coming from most of us. Just because this particular thread has posts that were posted after the event doesn't mean the poster didn't feel that way before the event took place. And in many, many cases, the poster made their feelings known in a different place on the site. Seriously, the only argument that I've seen on this site so far to "support" Yost is that somehow, we're all using "hindsight". Because of this false hindsight that we are using, Yost is somehow a good manager?

 

 

If Ned managed like half of the people here suggested, we would need to carry 17 pitchers.

Absolutely false.

[giffted1]

The man can do no right with some on this site, and its sad that every night has basically become a Yost "fault" hunt, so they can come back here and talk about how "right" they have always been about Yost.

I think some people actually look forward to a Brewers loss so they have a chance to post their Yosted garbage. I know he makes mistakes but some people seem to have unrealistic expectations of managers.

[brewcrew00]

I come from the camp where blame has to fall on the players majority of the time. Every manager and coach of every sport make bonehead mistakes, and I feel they are far to often wrongfully criticized. To me it just gets frustrating that some refuse to look past the Manager himself to the rest of the staff as well. A "good" manager will use the input of his staff to the fullest, and make decisions based off of the input received, which I honestly believe Ned does. However, when things fail, the giant pointing finger is 99% of the time pointed in his direction, and his direction alone. On the flip side, whenever they meet or exceed expectations, there is rarely credit given to the him.

 

To me, it doesn't come down to hindsight, I can understand why people dislike Ned, and respect why they feel that way. I just with people would take a more neutral stance in their criticism and not ignore the good things, but rather pass out the compliments when just.

 

Agree totally with FTJ on the ?3, however I don't look at it as a 5-6 game influence, but rather a near wash.

[naivin]

There has been very little, if any, hindsight coming from most of us.

On April 29th, jason21nl wrote:

 

Other than the fact that Counsell had 3 balls pop out of his glove, and Hall came in and hit a jack in the first pitch he saw, no damage was done.

 

If that is not blantant and obvious use of hindsight, the word hindsight should be removed from the English language.

 

 

[tosabrewfan]

The "removing a pitcher everytime he doesn't get a strikeout" and "carrying 17 pitchers" comments were obviously exagerations made to accent a point, not silly strawman arguments. I'm sorry to interrupt the I hate Ned Yost circle-j*rk, and will not do so in the future.

[jazzytrav]

On April 29th, jazzytrav wrote:

 

Other than the fact that Counsell had 3 balls pop out of his glove, and Hall came in and hit a jack in the first pitch he saw, no damage was done.

 

If that is not blantant and obvious use of hindsight, the word hindsight should be removed from the English language.

This would be embarrassing if I had been the one that posted that. Unfortunately for you, I didn't. Check the post again.

[naivin]

So the difference between Ned Yost (a bad manager) and a good manager is probably 5-6 games.

So...barring an abnormally bad bite by the injury bug or something like that, you feel this Brewer roster should win roughly how many games this year? And the actual win total will be more like ...

[TooLiveBrew]

Interesting argument: I don't think we can deny that baseball is a culture whereby managers try to get their starters wins and their closers saves.

 

This is a great point by Tbadder. And going beyond FtJ's nice insight on how W's will help Ben's payday, I feel it'd be remiss if we also didn't note that W's help the Brewers, too. Not meaning in the sense of the team's overall record, but in terms of Sheets's FA status after this season. The more W's Ben accrues, the better chance he's a Type A FA come this offseason. And that is a big deal.

 

 

So...barring an abnormally bad bite by the injury bug or something like that, you feel this Brewer roster should win roughly how many games this year? And the actual win total will be more like ...

While I 'get' what your overall point is here, I think it's extremely foolish to discount the difference one or two or three games will make. I mean, we moved Braun to LF bc his defense was costing us games, why shouldn't the same logic be applied to the manager?

 

 

EDIT: Not sure I'm following here. Gwynn was announced against the RH pitcher. Lou does a pitching change. So a lefty was brought in to face Gwynn. Now if Yost goes to Kapler he gets Kapler vs the left hander because the pitcher must face one batter.

 

My fault, forgot the RP has to face one batter. Yours is clearly the way to go; unfortunately, this wasn't Ned's way... even though he was handed this option on a silver platter. In this instance, burning two PH's was the correct move, imo, since you had a golden run-scoring chance.

[naivin]

This would be embarrassing if I had been the one that posted that. Unfortunately for you, I didn't. Check the post again.

 

OOps! My bad, and my apologies.

[naivin]

While I 'get' what your overall point is here, I think it's extremely foolish to discount the difference one or two or three games will make. I mean, we moved Braun to LF bc his defense was costing us games, why shouldn't the same logic be applied to the manager?

 

I'm not discounting the difference... I would just like to know what people feel it is.

[naivin]

I think statistically people have boiled it down to a 3 game swing

OK, so you've told us what statistics say...what do you say? Where will the Brewers finish with Ned Yost managing? Where would they finish with his replacement?

[TooLiveBrew]

I'm not discounting the difference... I would just like to know what people feel it is.

 

I think Yost is easily a -2 or -3 on that scale. So the overall win total is basically irrelevant. Take however many games you have the Crew pegged for winning, and subtract 2 or 3. That could end up being the difference between playoffs & watching from home.

 

Look at it this way, if we still had Braun butchering it up at 3B, with a suitable replacement at that position ready to be called up from AAA (please, all do your best to refrain from Branyan jokes! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif ), wouldn't it just be common sense to make that move & put Braun in LF? And might it not also end up being a huge mistake at seasons's end to have not made that move, when the division could be decided by 3 games or fewer?

 

I think the gamble that Doug Melvin is taking on keeping Yost around as the manager, hoping that Simmons can help Ned overcome his knuckle-headedness in-game, is the most easily correctable mistake he's made/making in his tenure in MIL. It sickens me that Doug is willing to just roll the dice on this.