Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 2)

[TooLiveBrew]

Well-said, Bwaz.

 

 

However the last two games I got a little frustrated, and was genuinely baffled by his decision to pull Bush and CV. Both these guys have been struggling mightily, so he removes them in games they really have shown nicely.

 

I think it was nice to see Yost be proactive, as opposed to crossing his fingers like he did with Gagne last night. Beyond pitch #75 (roughly) is when Bush -- and most SP -- begin run into trouble. Running Bush out there after his 6 wonderful innings would have been asking for trouble again, just like Bwaz's gasoline/campfire analogy.

 

As for Parra, he started off terribly, seemingly unable to locate. Yes, he reigned himself in -- which was & is a very good sign -- but I was really happy that Yost decided to not push things.

 

 

If Ned is supposed to put players in the right spot to succeed I don't understand why he gets called stupid when he does it and they do succeed.

Buc, it was a position to fail, not succeed. Gagne labored to get through his 2nd inning Monday night, and did not look all that sharp last night. Yost (& Gagne) got very lucky, which I'm concerned that Ned will mistake for good judgment.

[trwi7]

Did anybody hear the report Trenni did last night saying that Yost doesn't like to use his relievers more than three days in a row and if they are used three days in a row then they get a couple of days off? Does Ned not think a closer is a reliever? What the hell was he using Gagne for earlier in the year for four straight days?

[Teatoe993]

What the hell was he using Gagne for earlier in the year for

four straight days?

 

I thought it was something like 6 or 7 days. One of those days he was not in a game situation, but he did end up warming up in the BP. Just never got into the game. That stretch was pretty nuts for a couple days though.

[Thurston Fluff]

Buc, it was a position to fail, not succeed. Gagne labored to get through his 2nd inning Monday night, and did not look all that sharp last night. Yost (& Gagne) got very lucky, which I'm concerned that Ned will mistake for good judgment.

 

Of course there is room for agruement on this so respect your opinion but I think on the whole getting your players i the spot they are most comfortable playing is the right situation. As I said if Gagne said he was good to go and wanted the job back then I'm ok with Ned allowing him to do so. Agins it's less to do with that particular game as it is how you treat your players. One thing we know for sure Ned is not a Mike Sherman type who doesn't listen to his players. Veteran do need to be treated differantly than young players. the sheer amount of experience they have makes them more knowledgable about their own mind and body than any outsider could. They've been through pretty much everything already and know how to handle it. This is just my opinion but I don't think you just can take these players opinions out of the equation and still hope to keep both them and the rest of the players playing hard for you all the time. Once resentment sets in it's really hard to overcome. Resentment comes when professional respect doesn't.

[TheBwaz]

I am an efficient professional in my early 30s and nobody respects me.

Yes, I am sure Gagne told Yost he was good to go, but Yost can't base his decision on naught but that. Sure the guy you are paying $10 million to and was facing being forcibly shorn if he showed his face in public is going to say he is fine. I was less concerned with his closing ability as I was for using the guy in his 30s with injury problems 2 nights in a row after he just threw 2 innings in a game for the first time since he was on drugs.

Taking risks is fine. I prefer, managerially speaking, those risks only be taken when they have to.

[TooLiveBrew]

Once resentment sets in it's really hard to overcome. Resentment comes when professional respect doesn't.

 

I'm nearly 100% certain that Yost not pitching Gagne last night would not have led to this. Eric had just struggled to get through 2 IP the night before, and in general has not pitched that well of late. Gagne seems very in-tune to this (evidenced by his own comments), so I can't imagine a scenario where he would have been irate/irritated about not getting the 'go' last night.

 

Saying that not pitching a player in a position in which he should not have been pitched (general baseball logic, not my own or just unfounded hatred of Yost) is going to lead to resentment is a bit sensational. You're assuming Gagne told Yost he not only was ready to pitch, but wanted to, and I see no reason to assume either. As mentioned, if a guy in Gagne's position (thrown 2 IP the night previous... struggled, no less) tells Yost 'Hey, I can go tonight', imho it's the manager's job to be able to excercise better judgment.

[olliegjw]

If Pierre would've driven one into the gap, it would've been too late.

 

Also, can Shouse get ready in one batter? Would he have been ready for Ethier?

Pierre driving one into the gap? I guess Kendall could hit 2 homers today too. It was HIGHLY unlikely considering the outfield was probably playing a bit deeper to prevent extra bases.

 

Also, did LA have any righties left on the bench? I would rather have Gagne face Pierre than have Shouse face any righty.

[Bring Back the Stein]

Yost's argument is that the bullpen suffers when Gagne's not available. It also suffers when Gagne is available.

 

As for that stunt last night, I'm not sure it's best practices to rely on the word of someone who's getting close to a mental-health assignment. Did Francona rely on Gagne's word when he struggled last year? (Though his options were admittedly better.)

[tristarscoop]

Did anybody hear the report Trenni did last night saying that Yost doesn't like to use his relievers more than three days in a row and if they are used three days in a row then they get a couple of days off? Does Ned not think a closer is a reliever? What the hell was he using Gagne for earlier in the year for four straight days?

She first said that way back on the 8th and I commented on it then and no one said boo! I was up in arms as she went over this whole thing where he highlights their names and if he uses them 3 days in a row, they get mandatory two days rest.

 

My original comment:http://forum.brewerfan.net/search.php?keywords=345342/t/-Designated-Yost-Thread-Is-Yost-stifling-this-team-.html

[Thurston Fluff]

I'm nearly 100% certain that Yost not pitching Gagne last night would not have led to this.

 

No one instance does. An overall steady pattern is established by series of one time instances though. How each instance is handled independantly determines whether a manager is consistant with the philosophy he goes by. To do something one way once and the same sort of situation another is not consitant. To me he handled this the same way he did Turnbow. Both had the opportunity they asked for and each are afforded the same chance to succeed. What would Yost be telling Gagne if he doesn't allow him the same chance, professional courtousey if you will, that Turnbow got?

[TooLiveBrew]

You're comparing apples to oranges, though -- imo. The issue at hand is that Gagne pitched two grueling innings on Monday, not that he deserves the same chance TBow got (with which I agree).

[olliegjw]

You're comparing apples to oranges, though -- imo. The issue at hand is that Gagne pitched two grueling innings on Monday, not that he deserves the same chance TBow got (with which I agree).

Grueling innings?? They were up 8-1. That is about as far from grueling as you can get.

[logan82]

I thought Gagne would be the closer again, but I thought it would be this coming weekend, not Tuesday.

[TooLiveBrew]

Grueling innings?? They were up 8-1. That is about as far from grueling as you can get

 

Gagne really struggled, especially in his 2nd inning. I made no reference to the the score.

[jazzytrav]

The manager should at least listen to these adults when they are talking aobut their ability to do something in their field of expertise. They've earned that respect.

That would be fine if I thought Ned had the first clue what these players are thinking. He read about Gagne being embarrassed and wanting out of the closer role. I don't get the impression anyone cares to tell Ned anything.

[JJHardy7]

She first said that way back on the 8th and I commented on it then and no one said boo! I was up in arms as she went over this whole thing where he highlights their names and if he uses them 3 days in a row, they get mandatory two days rest.

 

I think Ned may have been referencing the multiple inning relief pitchers, but I'm not positive. Yost has made it clear that he's going to pitch Gagne consecutive days. Other closers in baseball can do this in my opinion so why not Gagne? I understand he's had the injuries, but we only signed him to a one year deal. I'm more concerned about his production after off days or consecutive days than how often he pitches. He's proven to be inconsistent up to this point and I think it's a moot point until Gagne is considerably a different pitcher given more rest -- I just haven't seen that yet. He has been bad at times both ways.

[olliegjw]

Grueling innings?? They were up 8-1. That is about as far from grueling as you can get

 

Gagne really struggled, especially in his 2nd inning. I made no reference to the the score.

I guess our definitions of grueling is different then. If his 2nd inning was grueling, then what was Stetter's performance in the 9th?

[TooLiveBrew]

Unbearable to bush-league. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

Eric really struggled to get through those two innings. I don't see how anyone that watched them could say they weren't grueling (physically) for him.

[Brawndo the Thirst Mutilat]

Even two incredibly easy innings should have precluded his use on the following day. It had been 4 years since he had gone longer than an inning. But considering how many pitches he threw, I think it's hard to disagree with TLB's assessment.

[olliegjw]

Unbearable to bush-league. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

Eric really struggled to get through those two innings. I don't see how anyone that watched them could say they weren't grueling for him.

 

3-up, 3 down and 9 pitches in his first inning sounds like a breeze to me. The 2nd inning he definitely had trouble, but still only gave up one run. I don't consider 6 batters and 1 run to be a grueling inning, but that may just be me.

[TooLiveBrew]

It's not just his results, though, which can be greatly aided by luck. Just watching him pitch that 2d inning, Eric looked almost totally gassed, and endaround pointed out that his shoulder started to fly open, & that that's a sign of a pitcher being tired.

 

He threw 37 pitches to get through 2 IP, after throwing 31 in 1 IP just back on Saturday. That's a ton of work on a RP's arm.

[Hammer]

Ned and Mike must have been getting coffee while Ben was struggling. C'mon skip, get the pitcher out of the game when he is obviously tired. NOT after he has given up 6 runs. Sheesh.

[naivin]

Well he did get McClung up after the second HR, so are you suggesting thet he should have had someone up sooner, given that Sheets was under 80 pitches and had previously given up nothing, or that he should have brought someone in without warming up?

[Glennron]

I am in no way blaming Yost for this game, however: Not pinch hitting Cameron or Hall for Counsell in the 8th is so stupid. "Omg Hall and Cameron haven't been hitting, AND Counsell is a lefty, why would I ever pinch hit for him?"

[naivin]

I am in no way blaming Yost for this game, however: Not pinch hitting Cameron or Hall for Counsell in the 8th is so stupid. "Omg Hall and Cameron haven't been hitting, AND Counsell is a lefty, why would I ever pinch hit for him?"

 

I hear ya, but RH's are 7/43 against Broxton this year with 18 K's. Couple that with Hall and Cameron's sub-.200 averages and propensity to stike out, and I'm not sure Counsell isn't actually the better option there.