Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 2)

[adambr2]

I'm sorry, but it's absolutely hilarious that Yost's mom even chews him out about his gametime decisions to the point where he hangs up on her.

[jazzytrav]

Anyone know if she posts here? http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[gypcasino]

Anyone read Dave Begel's column at onmilwaukee.com?

Brewers' manager Yost is the man in the middle

 

"No matter what they say, I'm going to keep on beating my head against this wall until it crumbles or the idiots who keep building it shut up.

Let me make it as clear as I can.

NED YOST IS NOT THE REASON THE BREWERS AREN'T WINNING!

Everybody needs to understand that the chattering class (scruffy sports columnists, stupid talk radio hosts, semi-stupid talk radio hosts, guys who've never played a down or an inning or a quarter in their lives, people who think a $20 ticket and a seat on the couch makes them some kind of expert) has a vested interest in calling for Ned Yosts' scalp."

[TooLiveBrew]

I don't think the argument that "NED YOST IZ THE REEZUN THE BREWERS WILL NEVER WYNN" is worth much of anyone's time. I know the hyperbole has been thrown around here a bit, but from what I can recall, the discussion on BF's forums tends to center around, 'Does he do a good job putting his players in favorable matchups?'

 

If one polarizes the argument as much as Begel has, then it's simple. Trouble is (imo), the analysis of a manager's contribution is never simple, since there aren't any truly reliable 'measuring sticks/points.' It's very subjective.

[Brawndo the Thirst Mutilat]

NED YOST IS NOT THE REASON THE BREWERS AREN'T WINNING!

 

The writer is setting up a false dichotomy here. Why would anyone believe that there is such a thing as THE reason the Brewers aren't winning? I would never even attempt to argue that getting rid of Yost would instantly solve all of the team's problems. But why, in addition to the "babies" (as he calls them) having down years, can't Yost be A reason the Brewers aren't winning as much as they ought to?

[logan82]

Brawndo the Thirst Mutilator wrote:

The writer is setting up a false dichotomy here. Why would anyone believe that there is such a thing as THE reason the Brewers aren't winning? I would never even attempt to argue that getting rid of Yost would instantly solve all of the team's problems.

You might not, but that doesn't mean that others wouldn't. Fireing Yost was pushed pretty hard last week by many posters as a fix for all our problems. In fact there were some who thought Yost was the reason for our young players not hitting.

[jazzytrav]

First of all, shouldn't it be:

 

NED YOST IS NOT THE REASON THE BREWERS ARE LOSING

?

 

This seems to be the argument that's beaten to death, and I don't quite understand it. If he doesn't have an effect either way, then there's no reason to be paying him a salary. I don't necessarily think anyone thought the young guys weren't hitting because of Yost, but rather that the entire team seemed completely lifeless, and that was a possible reason that they weren't hitting, and Yost didn't seem to be doing anything about it. I realize I wasn't in the clubhouse and didn't hear the conversations that did or did not happen, but considering his comments about Gagne, I imagine they weren't happening.

 

If I remember correctly from the Gagne thread, Yost said he read Gagne's comments about being embarrassed. READ ABOUT THEM!? Isn't that a conversation that should have happened long ago when it was clear that Gagne was struggling? I think TLB hit it on the head. Those frustrated with Yost's in-game management just don't think Yost is putting players in position to be successful.

 

Edit: I also want to add something that I posted in another thread. I do really like the new developments in the bullpen, and I hope they keep it that way. And the fact that the coaches are finding things to try with Bush and Villy make me think some things could be turning around as far as how upfront the coaching staff is being about resolving problems. Maybe that came out of the Monday meeting or something, but it's refreshing. My biggest complaints thus far have been poor bullpen management, and the feeling that nothing is being done about problems. Hopefully the bullpen thing will be resolved, as Ned is now talking about how much he wants to rest his bullpen. I can deal with this as long as he quits putting Gwynn in during RBI situations. I'm trying to be patient and hope these developments turn into something, but I'm still in the Fire Yost clan until I see it on a consistent basis.

[xisxisxis]

Fireing Yost was pushed pretty hard last week by many posters as a fix for all our problems. In fact there were some who thought Yost was the reason for our young players not hitting.

 

Can you point me to those posts so that I can read them. I've been skimming the threads and haven't seen either of those assertions.

[TooLiveBrew]

I recall both kinds of comments being made over the course of the 6-game skid. I don't have the time to dig for them.

[brewcrew00]

Those frustrated with Yost's in-game management just don't think Yost is putting players in position to be successful.

 

As a Ned supporter, this is something I can be in total agreement with.

 

On the flip side, I feel like there has been plenty of times this season already where players WERE in position to be successful, and failed, and for whatever reason, Ned was still to blame for their lack of production.

[aracko]

Very Gutsy move putting Gagne in the game after going 2 innings the night before and melting down 2 nights before that. Its rare that I throw out a Yost Compliment, but nice job Ned. That showed that you have big league balls, and getting Shouse up just in case to face Eithier was a stroke of brilliance.

[jeffy]

Anyone read Dave Begel's column at onmilwaukee.com?

Brewers' manager Yost is the man in the middle

Regardless of whether or not one thinks Yost is not the right guy for the job, the argument presented in the article, which is: Some stupid people want Yost fired, therefore Yost should not be fired is a poor one.

Similarly, while the writer has stupid opinions as to why Yost should be kept, that does not necessarily mean that Yost should be fired.

 

Stupid opinion #1:

 

Many of the areas in a baseball game when the manager has to make decisions come only when the team is hitting and putting runners on base. With the lousy hitting the Brewers displayed last week, Yost wasn't even faced with those decisions.

 

Stupid opinion #2:

 

You can talk about setting the emotional tone for a team and making sure players are ready, eager and willing to play. A big deal in football, a slightly smaller deal in basketball and not so much of a deal in baseball.

[jazzytrav]

Very Gutsy move putting Gagne in the game after going 2 innings the night before and melting down 2 nights before that. Its rare that I throw out a Yost Compliment, but nice job Ned. That showed that you have big league balls, and getting Shouse up just in case to face Eithier was a stroke of brilliance.

I don't think I could possibly disagree more. That's not guts, that's stupidity. Just because it "worked" doesn't mean it was a good decision. Why is it that if it doesn't work, he made a bad decision, but if it does work, he has guts? It was a bad decision no matter how you slice it.

 

And Shouse should have been up two batters earlier. I just assumed he already was and would face Pierre, but then I saw Pierre come up and THEN Ned gets Shouse up. If Pierre would've driven one into the gap, it would've been too late.

 

Also, can Shouse get ready in one batter? Would he have been ready for Ethier?

[brewcrew00]

Yes Shouse is ONE of the FEW relievers who can get ready in one hitter.

 

Gagne v. Pierre isn't a bad matchup as the worst is a base hit. Zero long ball power, so you don't have to worry about giving up the 3 run shot.

 

Why do you feel that it was a "bad" decision?

[Bankjob]

I think my argument for the Ned Yost should NOT be fired is that the grass is not always greener on the other side. It seems that a lot of casual fans expect this franchise to go from below average for 2 decades into a perennial World Series contender now that we have a few young stud players.

 

I believe winning needs to be learned by players and managers together. I think our younger players are still learning that and Ned and the rest of his staff is as well. Sure it would be easier to have a Tony LaRussa type Manager that has been there and back and can teach everybody how to do it. But if that kind of coach were available and not to stubborn to teach young players he would have been snatched up in the off season. Again the grass is not always greener.

[Fatter than Joey]

Fireing Yost was pushed pretty hard last week by many posters as a fix for all our problems. In fact there were some who thought Yost was the reason for our young players not hitting.

 

I agree with xisxisxis -- There is not a poster her that thinks firing Yost is a fix for ALL our problems -- nor is there MANY posters.

 

Some people may very well think that Yost is a variable in the formula that defines our offensive output -- but no one here things Yost was the reason.

 

I think the Yost discussions would be a lot more civil if people did not use such extreme verbiage or strawman arguments.

[jazzytrav]

Yes Shouse is ONE of the FEW relievers who can get ready in one hitter.

 

Gagne v. Pierre isn't a bad matchup as the worst is a base hit. Zero long ball power, so you don't have to worry about giving up the 3 run shot.

 

Why do you feel that it was a "bad" decision?

 

Thanks for the info on Shouse. Either way, I would have rather seen him against Pierre. Sure, Pierre pretty much stinks completely, but he stinks even more against lefties.

 

And the reason I think it was a bad decision is because Gagne threw two innings the night before, and Mota, Shouse, and Riske were all rested.

 

I think our younger players are still learning that and Ned and the rest of his staff is as well.

Listen to a Ned Yost interview and explain to me how this guy thinks that he's learning. Regardless of whether he actually is learning something, he goes up there and talks about how perfect his decisions are every time, even when they don't work. I thought he was learning something about bullpen management this past week, but of course, he didn't learn a damn thing.

[TooLiveBrew]

The Gagne decision was risky, but imo not so much due to the matchups. I didn't mind seeing him at all in that sense, even v. Pierre.

 

What was moronic was to try to show your balls to the world/faith in a player by pitching a RP who had not only thrown the night before, but had thrown 2 innings! Ned seems to have little concept of risk management... and it's as frustrating to me now as it has always been.

[endaround]

It wasn't just two innings it was two innings with rather bad control and it looked like Gagne was opening his shoulder near the end of the two, a sign of fatigue.

[aracko]

Gagne needed to close that game out vs the Dodgers more than he needed anything. I say Yost should trot him out there again tonight. Ride this chevy till it can go no more. It might surprise you.

[Teatoe993]

Yost's move last night was plain stupidity. In my opinion, this was his worst move this year. Throwing Gagné in there the day after he threw 2 innings (remember they weren't quick easy innings either) and close the game was insane. It was a total game of russian roulette. Yost came out unscathed, but imagine the repercussions if the save was blown. It would have went down with all the classic 2007 Yostings.

[Tbadder]

I usually don't think about Yost much. It's not my impression that he hurts or helps much, and so I stay away from most of the Yost arguments. However the last two games I got a little frustrated, and was genuinely baffled by his decision to pull Bush and CV. Both these guys have been struggling mightily, so he removes them in games they really have shown nicely. I think Bush had 92 pitches and CV had 83 by the end of the sixth. Everyone knows that if a starter can go seven innings you've got not only a productive game, but you help out your bullpen, not to say anything of the psychological lift for the troubled starter. If he really believes in his guys then let them go another inning. Let them complete the job as it were. have someone warmed up if it bugs you, but let them do what they're "suppoed" to do, so they have something to build on. Dumb.

[Invader3K]

People on here have constantly said that Yost leaves some starters like Bush in too long, because they seem due to give up a "big inning"...I guess I give you credit for taking the opposite tact, tbadder.

[TheBwaz]

I gotta say I was fine with pulling Bush and CV when he did. All year those two had been melting down in the 5th or the 6th, so sending them out for the 7th would have been bad. Don't play with fire and turn things over to your pen which has been pretty good so far. If he leaves them in, I am sure he would be excoriated for doing so.

 

As for putting Gagne in, well, I'm in the "don't fire Yost (for now)" camp, but I really thought he was huffing glue at that point. The guy begged of the closer role 2 DAYS AGO and he just threw 2 innings for the first time in a long time. Its like dousing yourself in gasoline and then jumping over a camp fire. Am I glad it worked? Sure, but I never want to see it again.

[Thurston Fluff]

It wasn't just two innings it was two innings with rather bad control and it looked like Gagne was opening his shoulder near the end of the two, a sign of fatigue

 

If the veteran payer says he's good to go and is ready to play the position he was hired to play it isn't sheer stupidity at all. You seem to be under the belief that the player either does not communicate his availablity to Yost or Yost's ability to here the payers cry for rest or that somehow a 32 year old veteran reliever domehow doesn't know when he's ready to pitch. If Oyst was told by the veteran player he was ready to go then it isn't such a stretch to play him. the sign of fatigue you mention seems to be debateable to me. One reason I think it isn't a bad idea to get him in a game agian in a situation he says he's comfortabel with is so the corrections they made so recently gets used in a game. relievers pretty much have to make thier adjustments in the game since they rarely get to work on the side.

 

I don't think I could possibly disagree more. That's not guts, that's stupidity. Just because it "worked" doesn't mean it was a good decision. Why is it that if it doesn't work, he made a bad decision, but if it does work, he has guts? It was a bad decision no matter how you slice it.

 

 

 

If Ned is supposed to put players in the right spot to succeed I don't understand why he gets called stupid when he does it and they do succeed. I would have thought it a good move even if it did not work. Me in their 30's need to be treated with a certain amount of respect in their proffession. Other players see the treatment afforded these established players. The manager should at least listen to these adults when they are talking aobut their ability to do something in their field of expertise. They've earned that repsect. If the player fails in said situations then the manager can do what is necessary without other players grumbling or said player getting mad and causeing problems. These players, after all are both mature adults and human beings. The players want the same respect out of their manager as any of us want from our boss when we are in our 30's and have established a certain level of efficeincy in our job.